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Post by threeifbaerga on Aug 13, 2013 10:00:27 GMT -5
Marrero has a very encouraging first month or so, then was de-railed by a hamstring injury. They tend to linger, IIRC, and could be the cause of his stretch since then.
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Post by elguapo on Aug 13, 2013 10:07:25 GMT -5
Very little evidence that he can hit? A career .261/.349/.351 line is not great but it's not bad, either. Whoa, whoa, whoa - where does 40% of that come from? A 21-year-old from a major college program playing at Lowell? C'mon. Slumps mid-season? So he was good the first month and the last week, don't pay any attention to the three-plus months in between? You are really reaching here. Also: Comparing a "minor league career" of a kid in AAA to one who just got out of A ball? This is embarassing. Marrero at 22 in Salem: .322 wOBA, 11% BB, 16% K, .078 ISO Bradley at 22 in Salem: .449 wOBA, 17% BB, 13% K, .167 ISO
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 13, 2013 10:23:15 GMT -5
Agree with El Guapo on the Marrero/Bradley comp. In fact, it's even more stark than he points out, because Bradley is only four months older than Marrero - so their age 22 seasons aren't really comparable. Two weeks before his 23rd birthday, Marrero will be making his Double-A debut. Two weeks before his 23rd birthday, Bradley made his major league debut. All of Marrero's 660 plate appearances are at Lowell and Salem. Bradley had 344 PAs at Lowell and Salem before moving to Double-A - since then, he's had 560. Context is key here.
EDIT: I should point that this doesn't mean Marrero can't play - just that the comparison does a disservice to both.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 10:50:33 GMT -5
I think it's fair to accept Marerro for where he is and what he is. What he can do, and why the Sox drafted him, is be an average major league glove at SS. The hope was that his bat would be mature enough to be a .700-.750 OPS guy which would be an above average SS. I just don't see anything in either the stat line or the the scouting reports so far, that show he can do that.
It was mentioned that Marerro has been injured this year, and perhaps next year he can get up to AA and show that he can indeed be an above average bat for the position. If not, he still has a good shot to be a 2nd division SS, or a utility player. I know that's not what everyone hopes for, but it's not bad.
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Post by joshv02 on Aug 13, 2013 10:56:18 GMT -5
He is an '12 draftee. Why do we need to figure out who he is roughly one year into his professional career?
We can simply admit to not knowing, yet. The statistical evidence certainly isn't there to mean much. We can likely rule him out as a 30 hr hitter, or a stiff in the field, with potential career paths in between. Everyone is a likely second division player until they prove otherwise so that doesn't tell us much, either.
It's ok to not yet have an opinion.
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Post by elguapo on Aug 13, 2013 10:56:22 GMT -5
What he can do, and why the Sox drafted him, is be an average major league glove at SS. The hope was that his bat would be mature enough to be a .700-.750 OPS guy which would be an above average SS. I haven't heard that kind of assessment elsewhere - my impression is that he was drafted to be a very good defensive shortstop with some hope for his bat, and that his glove has been even better than advertised and the bat ... hasn't. But maybe that's just my memory.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 13, 2013 10:57:11 GMT -5
I think it's fair to accept Marerro for where he is and what he is. What he can do, and why the Sox drafted him, is be an average major league glove at SS. The hope was that his bat would be mature enough to be a .700-.750 OPS guy which would be an above average SS. I just don't see anything in either the stat line or the the scouting reports so far, that show he can do that. It was mentioned that Marerro has been injured this year, and perhaps next year he can get up to AA and show that he can indeed be an above average bat for the position. If not, he still has a good shot to be a 2nd division SS, or a utility player. I know that's not what everyone hopes for, but it's not bad. Huh? I don't there was any desire for him to be an average major league glove as SS. While the "he's better than Iglesias" tweet is probably far-fetched, I am pretty sure he was drafted with the idea that he would an above average or better defensive SS in the big leagues, with the hope his bat would develop enough to be an above average all around major league SS.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 13, 2013 11:01:32 GMT -5
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Aug 13, 2013 11:03:29 GMT -5
What he can do, and why the Sox drafted him, is be an average major league glove at SS. The hope was that his bat would be mature enough to be a .700-.750 OPS guy which would be an above average SS. I haven't heard that kind of assessment elsewhere - my impression is that he was drafted to be a very good defensive shortstop with some hope for his bat, and that his glove has been even better than advertised and the bat ... hasn't. But maybe that's just my memory. Here is what Mike Roberts, former UNC coach, dad of Brian, said: "He's the best amateur baseball player on the defensive side I've ever seen in 35 years of coaching," he said Tuesday. "He's Omar Vizquel at 20, 21, except he'll be a better hitter and steal more bases. I've seen him do things defensively I've never seen another infielder do." espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8013156/high-praise-boston-red-sox-draft-pick-deven-marrero
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 11:21:01 GMT -5
Everything I've read about him says that he's an average SS glove. Keep in mind that an average SS glove is still pretty valuable and there aren't a lot of those.
Neither of the two posts refute this. The "Mike Roberts" story sounds like hyperbole as opposed to actual fact. Does anyone really think that "Omar Vizquel with a better bat" goes to the back half of the first round?
The second says that he will have below average power for a major leaguer but will still be a major league regular because of his glove. A guy with 40 power, good OB skills, and an average SS glove plays regularly in the majors.
Again, let's not make him out to be more than he is.
EDIT: One other thing. The BA report says he has "above average defensive ability". To play SS at an average level in the majors you need to have above average defensive ability. 50 infield gloves play 2B.
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Post by jmei on Aug 13, 2013 11:23:29 GMT -5
Everything I've read about him says that he's an average SS glove. Care to provide some links?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 11:24:51 GMT -5
Everything I've read about him says that he's an average SS glove. Care to provide some links! No because they are in BP in the subscription section.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 13, 2013 11:27:12 GMT -5
So? You can still link those.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 11:28:50 GMT -5
So? You can still link those. If you are a subscriber find it on your own, they do have a search function. Posting paid subscribed stuff here other than in my own words is against the ground rules.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 13, 2013 11:30:32 GMT -5
Posting a link is not against the ground rules or against any other rules.
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Post by templeusox on Aug 13, 2013 11:35:01 GMT -5
Marrero has a very encouraging first month or so, then was de-railed by a hamstring injury. They tend to linger, IIRC, and could be the cause of his stretch since then. Is that hamstring also retroactive to his last two years at ASU?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 11:36:07 GMT -5
Posting a link is not against the ground rules or against any other rules. I would prefer to do it my way and not post links to subscribed material. Besides, if someone who is a BP subscriber can't go to BP and put the players name into the search tool, I doubt they are really that interested anyways.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 13, 2013 11:54:36 GMT -5
What is your way? People post links all the time to subscriber and non-subscriber content. VERY acceptable. Even posting limited quotes from subscriber content is ok. Posting the whole articles is not. I'm not sure what "your way" is.
The evidence seems to be his defense is above average at the very least. You're the only one (in this thread anyway) claiming he's only average and you mention articles saying he's only an average glove. I think the onus is on you to provide the links to refute what everyone else is posting about his above average or better defense.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 13, 2013 12:01:45 GMT -5
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 13, 2013 12:15:16 GMT -5
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Post by sdiaz1 on Aug 13, 2013 12:29:58 GMT -5
To answer the question posed up thread as to why so many people are down on Marrero; I'd say that it is quite simple as fans (even savvy ones) often fail to look over offensive short comings of prospects, even if they provide excess value defensively or on the base paths. We saw this ad-nauseum with Iglesias. Though I should point out that Igelesias is all of six months older than Marrero - I don't like beating a dead horse, and I am very happy with the Peavey trade, but I do think a lot of sox fans in six years will be saying man we used to have that guy. mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2013_08_12_detmlb_chamlb_1&mode=video&content_id=29653669&tcid=vpp_copy_29653669
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 13:01:01 GMT -5
In general, if a request is made and that request is refused you don't keep asking. To do so is rude. Request denied, move along.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 13, 2013 13:06:47 GMT -5
Exactly, those articles don't exist
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 13:20:38 GMT -5
Exactly, those articles don't exist You are welcome to be a child and call me a liar. Or you could go to the BP player page and spend 10 seconds finding the article. I can see why you would rather be inflammatory though, tough guy.
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Post by iakovos11 on Aug 13, 2013 13:34:16 GMT -5
I did go to BP and actually posted the scouting report from Kevin Goldstein from the draft day 2012, which is more than you have done. I couldn't find the article that says his defense is merely average. Arguing a point different than everyone else here when others have provided supporting links and quotes, and then telling us to go look up what you remember reading is complete nonsense. Nobody makes an argument against evidence presented to the contrary and then tells people go find support this argument.
It's not childish to call you on this. And I am not trying to be inflammatory. You usually make good points and support those arguments. Not sure what's up this time. If the articles exist, we'd really like to read them. If not, maybe you were mistaken. I remember things different than I read them sometimes. Doesn't mean you are/were lying.
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