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9/30-10/2 Wild Card Games Thread
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Post by mattpicard on Oct 1, 2013 20:56:10 GMT -5
What are you trying to say? Every guy caught using PEDs needs to be crucified the way A-Rod has been? I hate the attention A-Rod gets, and the media is obsessed with ripping him, but there are reasons for that unique to A-Rod. It's not all fair and equal in terms of the reception and forgiveness players get who return after suspensions, but it's more or less consistent among non-A-Rod players. Braun was obviously a special case. Most guys like Byrd serve their suspension, admit wrong-doing, and abide by MLB's policy for suspensions and reinstatements. Why should we keep bringing up their past offenses when they didn't actually get a pass at all? He was caught, served his time, was in national media outlets, and came out and spoke about it. I really don't care if he is or isn't using. But here's my problem: he's failed a test. He's having a career year at an advanced age. He's got all the guilt-by-association connections you could imagine. So why does he get off the hook when so many other players have been labeled as cheaters or illegitimate or whatever for even one or two of those things?? I think it's all down to personality. If you're a friendly in the clubhouse, if you give sportswriters good quotes, you're fine. You're a good guy who made one mistake and served your time for it. If you're aloof, if you're not outgoing, if you don't particularly have time for writers and media people, well, you're a bad guy and a cheater and all the rest of it. The difference between Alex Rodriguez and Marlon Byrd is personality, and that's it. If Byrd was a weird narcissistic jerk like Rodriguez, his amazing age-36 season would be proof positive that he's still juicing. But he's a nice guy, so instead it's a story of triumph. We need to separate the direct penalty system and the separate "social" penalties that we see someone like A-Rod get slaughtered with. In Marlon's case, he accepted his suspension, served it, and returned to MLB. A-Rod is appealing his suspension, which he has every right to do, and is possibly going to return to MLB once he properly completes his suspension. In this way, they are the same in that they are both using MLB's system accordingly. Cruz, Peralta as well. Now, Byrd comes out with an apology and explanation. He happily speaks to reporters and answers any questions they have for him. He is in a seemingly tough situation with his agents and Conti connections pointing towards sketchy wrongdoing, yet he welcomes the inquisitions. He isn't launching a major legal battle, toying with doctors and medical results, or resisting the suggestions/orders of his MLB organization. You are correct in that the major difference between them is personality. But does that mean we are giving Byrd a pass, or really are we just being force fed a crapshoot of A-Rod stuff from the media? A-Rod brought a lot of criticism upon himself, but ultimately he has a right to act as he desires. So does the media. Both A-Rod, and the media, suck in many ways. It's not hard to see why everyone hates A-Rod. Byrd is back in the game doing his thing in a respectable manner. He still has his share of doubters/critics because of his PED scandal because we're all entitled to our opinions, but he's not blinking an eye. What if the media this postseason starts to highly publicize his suspension from last year? Are people going to suddenly hate him. Should I not praise him on an unbelievable season that likely occurred during a PED-less season one year after being horrible with PEDs? Should I not believe that he's probably a good guy who made a poor choice that was disrespectful and cheating to the game, and did the best he could at explaining himself and moving on? In other words, he's not getting a pass, he's probably really right where he should be. A-Rod is a much different story, but he's not Marlon Byrd. Did Peralta, Cruz, Grandal, E-Cabrera, Colon, Cameron, Ruiz, etc. all get passes too?
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,841
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Post by wcp3 on Oct 1, 2013 21:28:45 GMT -5
Here's a better question: why do baseball fans STILL care so much about guys using PEDs? Ray Lewis was blatantly juicing last year to recover from a torn quad, everyone knew about it, he helped the Ravens win the Super Bowl ... and nobody cared. You didn't hear about a peep about it.
I understand that in baseball, more than any other sport, individual records are viewed as sacred. But at this point, PEDs are pretty much ingrained into pro sports, and they ain't going away anytime soon.
It's time for people to get over it in general.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 1, 2013 21:48:33 GMT -5
Here's a better question: why do baseball fans STILL care so much about guys using PEDs? Ray Lewis was blatantly juicing last year to recover from a torn quad, everyone knew about it, he helped the Ravens win the Super Bowl ... and nobody cared. You didn't hear about a peep about it.I understand that in baseball, more than any other sport, individual records are viewed as sacred. But at this point, PEDs are pretty much ingrained into pro sports, and they ain't going away anytime soon. It's time for people to get over it in general. That's fine. What bothers me is that roughly half of baseball players get that treatment, and then the other half get Bonds-ed. So the reaction is not only stupid, it's disproportionate, unfair, and petty.
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Post by mattpicard on Oct 1, 2013 22:31:26 GMT -5
I don't think it's half and half. Guys like Bonds and A-Rod, and some special cases like Braun and Melky that had some ridiculous circumstances, get blown up. But most guys, like the one's I listed at the end of my last post, pass through without becoming perpetually hammered by fans and the media.
Pirates with the 6-2 victory! Just awesome. And PMC was just brimming with a super electric crowd all night. Gotta love it. Onto tomorrow, let's go Tito!
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 1, 2013 23:28:04 GMT -5
Here's a better question: why do baseball fans STILL care so much about guys using PEDs? Ray Lewis was blatantly juicing last year to recover from a torn quad, everyone knew about it, he helped the Ravens win the Super Bowl ... and nobody cared. You didn't hear about a peep about it.I understand that in baseball, more than any other sport, individual records are viewed as sacred. But at this point, PEDs are pretty much ingrained into pro sports, and they ain't going away anytime soon. It's time for people to get over it in general. That's fine. What bothers me is that roughly half of baseball players get that treatment, and then the other half get Bonds-ed. So the reaction is not only stupid, it's disproportionate, unfair, and petty. What should really bother you is how Ray Lewis managed to stay for an hour in the dark during the Super Bowl without stabbing anyone.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 2, 2013 0:02:04 GMT -5
Pirates with the 6-2 victory! Just awesome. And PMC was just brimming with a super electric crowd all night. Gotta love it. Onto tomorrow, let's go Tito! Sorry to drag us into the PED vortex here. There's more interesting things going on tonight. Not that it's a perfect analog, but I look at those crowds at PNC and it reminds me of what it was like being a Red Sox fan in '03-'04. I don't want to complain about winning two World Series or anything, but... there's a certain energy and vitality that can only be breed from true desperation, and Pirates fans have it right now. There's a sense of stakes surrounding that team right now, and it's awfully fun to watch.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 2, 2013 7:33:08 GMT -5
I love seeing Dusty Baker fail. That's not very nice.. Some like seeing the Pirates win (like me) from decades past who remember this team as a power house team and not the putrified ones Bonds era either, but much further back from then. Like when both one of their announcers (Steve Blass) and even later when Stargell, Parker) and several others made those teams one of the best in the NL for years. I am glad they beat the Reds and would like to see them win the NLCS as well.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 2, 2013 7:34:15 GMT -5
I don't want to play the Rays.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Oct 2, 2013 9:18:05 GMT -5
I don't want to play the Rays. Me too. We'd get; Moore, Price, Cobb, Archer/Hellickson and probably Price on 4days rest for Game 5. The Sox could certainly beat them. But, it's going to be a battle. Would rather take my chances against the Tribe. Not a scared of Ubaldo at all. Sox can run all those lefty hitters out there. Games 1 and 2 are in the late afternoon. 3p on Friday and 5p on Sat. Rays would be throwing two lefties with the ball coming out of the bleachers into the shadows.
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Post by terriblehondo on Oct 2, 2013 9:19:23 GMT -5
No one in their right mind wants to play the Rays
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 2, 2013 10:41:36 GMT -5
What are you guys gonna say if the Rays beat the Red Sox? " If only Cleveland would have beaten the Rays, the Red Sox would have totally beaten them"
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Post by okin15 on Oct 2, 2013 11:18:38 GMT -5
Everyone wants to play the lesser/losing team... so "if-only" revisionist history will always be better in this case.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 2, 2013 11:21:23 GMT -5
What are you guys gonna say if the Rays beat the Red Sox? " If only Cleveland would have beaten the Rays, the Red Sox would have totally beaten them" You don't think Cleveland is a better match up? Their line up is nothing to write home about at all and their pitching staff is inferior to the Rays as well.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 2, 2013 11:22:44 GMT -5
What are you guys gonna say if the Rays beat the Red Sox? " If only Cleveland would have beaten the Rays, the Red Sox would have totally beaten them" You don't think Cleveland is a better match up? Their line up is nothing to write home about at all and their pitching staff is inferior to the Rays as well. It really doesn't matter that much.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 2, 2013 11:40:23 GMT -5
Cleveland is more balanced of a team, but overall would much more prefer them over the Rays. Tampa has that shut down front 3 rotation that can make it tough for any team to score.
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Post by jmei on Oct 2, 2013 12:00:19 GMT -5
One of the only reasons I'd prefer Cleveland over Tampa Bay is that we know that facing Tampa Bay means facing a team that will have two very good left-handed starters (with killer splits) who will pitch the first two games and three of five. Cleveland will only have Kazmir, who would only pitch one game in a five-game series, while having two right-handed pitchers with big splits (Masterson and Jimenez).
The Red Sox just struggle with left-handed pitchers more than they do with righties. First, they likely force the third best player in the lineup (Nava) out in favor of an inferior hitter (Gomes). Second, Farrell seems committed to his "starters," two of whom (Drew and Saltalamacchia) are awful versus lefties but will almost certainly start versus them in the playoffs (you can put Nava in this category as well if he starts over Gomes).
EDIT: Here's some statistical evidence for this disparity: the 2013 Red Sox hit .265/.337/.414/.751 versus lefties (102 wRC+), good for 8th in the league. They hit .283/.355/.462/.818 versus righties (121 wRC+), 1st in the league by a wide margin. All this despite Fenway Park (in theory) being tougher on left-handed pitchers because of the Monster.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 2, 2013 12:12:13 GMT -5
What are you guys gonna say if the Rays beat the Red Sox? " If only Cleveland would have beaten the Rays, the Red Sox would have totally beaten them" You don't think Cleveland is a better match up? Their line up is nothing to write home about at all and their pitching staff is inferior to the Rays as well. Yes but all the "I don't want the Rays" " oh they are coming" "oh my god the Rays are coming" is nonsense. What the Red Sox can't beat the Rays now? It doesn't matter who they play it's going to be tough. If the Red Sox can't beat the Rays then tough luck do you want them going against Detroit? What was all the fuss about getting the best record. It's the playoffs anyone can beat anyone.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 2, 2013 12:17:48 GMT -5
I don't think that's what anyone is saying, Norb. Well, except maybe Guidas, but at no point will I ever pretend to speak for him.
I think it's that we have nothing else to do at this point as fans than to a) speculate about who the Sox will play, and b) speculate about who will be on the playoff roster. Seems like we're spent on the latter, so we're discussing the former.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 2, 2013 12:20:31 GMT -5
Second, Farrell seems committed to his "starters," two of whom (Drew and Saltalamacchia) are awful versus lefties but will almost certainly start versus them in the playoffs (you can put Nava in this category as well if he starts over Gomes). Well that would be on Farrell then if he can't adjust. He has the same, likely more, info than we have but if he rather stick with his guys then that part is on him. I don't disagree that I'd prefer Cleveland but this collective fear I sense is annoying. Yes they are a good club with tough matchups but so are the Red Sox.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 2, 2013 12:23:31 GMT -5
I don't think that's what anyone is saying, Norb. Well, except maybe Guidas, but at no point will I ever pretend to speak for him. I think it's that we have nothing else to do at this point as fans than to a) speculate about who the Sox will play, and b) speculate about who will be on the playoff roster. Seems like we're spent on the latter, so we're discussing the former. Ok maybe I generalized too much. I tend to do that.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,952
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 2, 2013 17:18:39 GMT -5
I may start a thread to break down post-season starters, but in the meantime I thought I'd note than Danny Salazar has some very interesting splits. I'd dismiss them as SSS noise if they didn't all fit together.
Fact 1: He's been very tough with RISP, but bad with just a guy on 1B. That's odd. But it's a mistake to separate man-on-1B from RISP, and then lump all RISP situations together. I always look at 1B-occupied versus 1B-open-with-RISP splits, because that's when a pitcher challenges a hitter versus maybe pitches around him. In 60 PA with 1B occupied, he's allowed .278 / .350 / .463, but in the pitch-around situation, guys are 1/15, 2 BB, 2B. (Edit: admittedly, he's been good with RISP and first base occupied, and that's 20 PA. That's the one fact that doesn't quite fit.)
Fact 2: Understand that I would absolutely dismiss that as a fluke, unless you see the same splits with outs. You never want to walk a guy with 0 outs. His out splits: 784, 539, 638. The SA is .500, .258, .361. He's given up 6 of his 7 HR with 0 outs, including 2 leadoff homers and 2 leading off the second inning.
Fact 3: He's got a terrific slider and change, based on pitch/fx results. His fastball, which has hit 100, shows slightly better than average results by linear weights per pitch, but has been below average based on wOBA on PA that ended with one. In other words, the FB has been effective setting guys up, but he has also been hurt on it big-time. Which is to say, when he feels he can't risk a walk, avoids his off-speed pitches, and challenges a guy who is probably looking for the FB.
Fact 4: There's probably no team in MLB better equipped to be aware of these tendencies, and exploit them, than the Rays.
Fact 5: John G. raped and murdered my wife.
(OK, that's actually the main fact that precedes the numbered ones, but if I quoted the actual Fact 5, "drug dealer," who would have gotten it?)
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Post by Guidas on Oct 2, 2013 18:46:14 GMT -5
What are you guys gonna say if the Rays beat the Red Sox? " If only Cleveland would have beaten the Rays, the Red Sox would have totally beaten them" No. I think Tampa is especially well built for a short series. Cleveland is good enough to be here, and Jimenez seems to be peaking right now, but I think the Sox would prefer that match up since there is not Cobb, Moore and Archer waiting behind Jimenez but Kazmir, Klubler and Salazer. That's a proposition I think the Sox would prefer (and so would I). ADDED: I never bought into the idea that "We so totally beat so-and-so." I am a firm believer that anyone in the playoffs can win in a short series, and that the playoffs are basically a crap shoot. No worries though, Norbit. I never take anything out here personally. Cheers and go Sox.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 2, 2013 19:06:33 GMT -5
Holy Christ, I love Pedro. From the TBS studio show as they were closing out by making picks:
"I gotta go with Cleveland because I feel badd for what I did to them in '99."
Has there been a better combination of talent, charisma, and cojones from any athlete in our lifetime? Ever? Maybe Jordan. Bird wasn't as charismatic.
EDIT: Actually, I went in to edit this post to get rid of the extra "d" in the quote, but I think I'm just gonna leave it.
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Post by jmei on Oct 2, 2013 19:10:46 GMT -5
Man, Salazar's stuff is pretty breathtaking.
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Post by ramireja on Oct 2, 2013 19:13:29 GMT -5
Man, Salazar's stuff is pretty breathtaking. Yeah, a half inning thru and all of a sudden Cleveland is the team that scares me. That crowd is about 100x more than a Tampa crowd will ever be....
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