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Xander Bogaerts' defense at shortstop
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Apr 25, 2014 20:18:54 GMT -5
Middlebrooks goes from hitting .231 to .313 in one game. And casually says "How do you like me now?"
We should stay with what we have guys. It's a no brainer.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 25, 2014 21:33:24 GMT -5
Is this site the Red Sox evaluation? Did I miss something along the way?
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Post by bighead on Apr 25, 2014 22:00:38 GMT -5
Hanley Ramirez has been a joke at SS for years and there have been many people in this town and on this board pining for him.
Just trying to add some perspective.
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Post by mgoetze on Apr 25, 2014 22:34:20 GMT -5
Is it that hard to believe that someone can improve defensively, just as they could offensively? Yeah, kinda. It would really help if some knowledgable poster could come along and say "yes, it happens all the time that players struggle heavily when first called up at a tough position like SS/2B/CF and then perform adequately in their 2nd or 3rd year; X, Y and Z are good examples of this career path." I will freely admit that I know very little about this aspect of development, I'm just not optimistic about the possibilities from what I've read so far.
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Post by klostrophobic on Apr 25, 2014 23:45:31 GMT -5
Derek Jeter got significantly better. From all-time bad to about average-ish. Stephen Drew was shaky his first couple seasons and now he's good.
Alexei Ramirez was bad his first season. Jimmy Rollins was average and become pretty good.
How many reasonable comps does Bogaerts have? 21 year old full-time shortstops aren't really falling from the sky to be compared to.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 26, 2014 0:18:50 GMT -5
Let's all make sure we know what we're saying when we say "small sample size." If you gave me 25 at-bats in the majors, I'd go 0 for 25. It would be fair to say I suck, based both on my outcomes and the fact that I would look like a bit of a jackass trying to play baseball. It's becoming a very overused term. It IS possible to make judgments on a player after a month, sometimes.
Derek Jeter is the worst defensive shortstop to play 2000 games at the position. That's both a criticism and a compliment. He was never good there, and rarely even average. However, he was competently below average and his bat was so potent that no pitcher really cared. And his durability as a middle infielder is really what has set his career apart. That's a lot of reps at shortstop, even for someone kind of bad at it.
Jeter had a poor first step, and his range to his left has always been laughable, but he has a pretty good arm, solid footwork on balls he needed to charge and choppers, very good body control on off-balance throws, and ability to stand in and make good pivots. He was also excellent at tracking down pop-up flares, show-offy dive into the Fenway stands or not. Bogaerts does none of those things well. It's not just that he isn't a good defensive shortstop. It's that I don't see the makings of one there.
I'm sympathetic to those who want to be patient with him, but even as he improves his footwork as he gets more reps, it's while his body will be growing. 21-year-old shortstops should either be making some plays with their athleticism, or be quite sure-handed. Bogaerts has neither going for him, and at 25 he is going to be bigger. For someone who already isn't making plays with his athleticism, where does that lead? Even if he does improve his footwork and body control, I don't see that range improving a lot.
Another thing that worries, me, and would worry me even if he were competent at the position, is the attrition rate of middle infielders. Bogaerts is going to able to hit for as long as his body is under him, and I want that to be a long time. He's a really, truly special hitter.
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Post by jmei on Apr 26, 2014 8:56:48 GMT -5
I'm happily willing to give Xander until at least June or July and, assuming he shows a little improvement, probably through the end of the year (an added benefit is seeing how good Middlebrooks looks), but I'm not optimistic. A lot of the guys cited above as bad shortstops who improved (Ramirez, Rollins, etc.) were guys who had all the athletic tools but struggled to put it together. Like James noted, the issue with Xander is not just his footwork and technique (though those need work too), but also that he just looks slow out there. While he's a good enough athlete for his size, he's also a big dude who just lacks the quickness and bend to have much range on ground balls. Now, everyone is right to point out that it's still very possible that Xander works out some of the kinks and becomes a Hanley- or Jeter-esque offensive-minded shortstop from whom you happily tolerate below-average defense. After all, the aging curve for fielding generally peaks at around 24, and Bogaerts doesn't turn 22 until October. But, from what I've seen so far (it should be noted that I hadn't seen much of Xander's defense in the minors much, so maybe I had unrealistic expectations), I think even average defense might be out of the picture, and I'd hope the team considers alternative options if his defense hasn't picked up much by midseason. This thread was probably a month or two premature, but deep down I'm a Red Sox fan who is prone to overreaction and pessimism, so here we are.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 27, 2014 10:22:35 GMT -5
Stephen Drew got a lot better too. He worked unbelievably hard on his positioning and first step after his horrible ankle injury. Xander is 21. I think he sticks at SS until Marrero is ready.
I still believe that WMB stays at 3rd for now. The power he has is sick. That double he had the other night he hit to right center with basically one hand.
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Post by mgoetze on Apr 27, 2014 10:54:34 GMT -5
Stephen Drew got a lot better too. He worked unbelievably hard on his positioning and first step after his horrible ankle injury. Do you mean before his ankle injury? Drew had his best season by UZR in 2010. It is true that UZR rates him as pretty horrible for 2006-2008 though.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 27, 2014 11:22:11 GMT -5
Stephen Drew got a lot better too. He worked unbelievably hard on his positioning and first step after his horrible ankle injury. Do you mean before his ankle injury? Drew had his best season by UZR in 2010. It is true that UZR rates him as pretty horrible for 2006-2008 though. He really had to work hard to have passable defense after his ankle injury because that's an injury that takes years to get over. (I had the same injury playing hockey) He turned out to be better than he ever has been last season.
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Post by soxfan06 on Apr 27, 2014 11:37:52 GMT -5
I'm not too worried.
We needed this year to determine if WMB is going to be capable at the plate, so we might as well use this year to figure out if Bogaerts has any future at shortstop what so ever. Our middle infield prospects are strong so if he doesn't have a future there we should be fine.
Giving up on him 1 month into the season is extremely short sighted. Glad the Sox have some perspective.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Apr 27, 2014 21:07:31 GMT -5
I'm happily willing to give Xander until at least June or July and, assuming he shows a little improvement, probably through the end of the year (an added benefit is seeing how good Middlebrooks looks), but I'm not optimistic. A lot of the guys cited above as bad shortstops who improved (Ramirez, Rollins, etc.) were guys who had all the athletic tools but struggled to put it together. Like James noted, the issue with Xander is not just his footwork and technique (though those need work too), but also that he just looks slow out there. While he's a good enough athlete for his size, he's also a big dude who just lacks the quickness and bend to have much range on ground balls.Now, everyone is right to point out that it's still very possible that Xander works out some of the kinks and becomes a Hanley- or Jeter-esque offensive-minded shortstop from whom you happily tolerate below-average defense. After all, the aging curve for fielding generally peaks at around 24, and Bogaerts doesn't turn 22 until October. But, from what I've seen so far (it should be noted that I hadn't seen much of Xander's defense in the minors much, so maybe I had unrealistic expectations), I think even average defense might be out of the picture, and I'd hope the team considers alternative options if his defense hasn't picked up much by midseason. This thread was probably a month or two premature, but deep down I'm a Red Sox fan who is prone to overreaction and pessimism, so here we are. Funny thing ... that's pretty much exactly what I said about Xander when I saw him in Salem. I just thought he lacked the top-end athleticism that someone like Hanley has and that would be necessary for a guy that big to play shortstop. But the reason why I'm now backing off my earlier surety is that Xander looks a lot more athletic out there at short now than he did back in Salem. I mean, he didn't get more naturally athletic, but in the end it's really, really hard to separate footwork and technique from perceived athleticism at shortstop. Bad footwork makes someone look slow and stiff out there; good footwork makes a guy look fluid and calm. So, I really don't know how much of Xander's problems are athleticism and how much are technique. He's not explosively quick, but is he quick enough? I really don't know yet ... and his improvements have made me wary of putting too hard a ceiling on him right now.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Apr 29, 2014 8:56:44 GMT -5
Shorter Red Sox: what, us worry? Also, leading off, a scout indirectly bashing - BASHING, I say - Baseball America's choice of Buxton as the #1 prospect:
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Post by jrffam05 on May 13, 2014 14:35:15 GMT -5
I have to agree, I don't see Bogaerts sticking at SS. I wouldn't move him soon, I would probably commit to him for the whole season, but I would start planning on someone else taking the SS spot (cough cough MOOKIE BETTS...... or Marrero).
Honestly I am more worried about Bogaerts lack of power. I really haven't seen anything from him in his short MLB time that would suggest he is even close to the 30 HR bat he is projected as.
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Post by klostrophobic on May 13, 2014 15:43:35 GMT -5
As per his power, he has a 437 foot homer this season and if you look at the list of players who have hit a ball that far this season, most of them you would classify as having 30 HR power. His other career homer traveled 443 feet. His power is legit. In fact, look at this list and tell me who doesn't have legitimate power: www.hittrackeronline.com/index.php?sortm=true_dist&sort=desc
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Post by jimed14 on May 13, 2014 16:04:24 GMT -5
Xander needs to fill in some holes and get away from AJP and WMB in the lineup so he can see some more fastballs. He's getting junk pitched to death. The good news is he takes enough walks that he's still pretty decent when he's slumping.
As far as his defense goes, he looks a little better recently.
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Post by burythehammer on May 13, 2014 17:34:19 GMT -5
This is all much ado about nothing. Three months from now people will be worshiping the ground he walks on once again. As it should be.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on May 15, 2014 4:14:04 GMT -5
Surprised not to see this bumped after tonight's game, where he had three chances that I think would fall into Inside Edge's "Likely (60-90%)" bucket and made them all, and looked very good on the tough unassisted double play. I haven't seen every game, but that was the best I've seen him this year.
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Post by jmei on May 15, 2014 8:56:27 GMT -5
Surprised not to see this bumped after tonight's game, where he had three chances that I think would fall into Inside Edge's "Likely (60-90%)" bucket and made them all, and looked very good on the tough unassisted double play. I haven't seen every game, but that was the best I've seen him this year. Agreed. He's definitely improved over the past month or so. Impatience is one hell of a drug.
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Post by burythehammer on May 19, 2014 10:52:10 GMT -5
Ben Cherington with a dose of sanity and logic:
IOW, Stephen Drew is not walking through that door (unless he wants to play 3B)
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Post by jimed14 on May 19, 2014 10:55:35 GMT -5
Ben Cherington with a dose of sanity and logic: IOW, Stephen Drew is not walking through that door (unless he wants to play 3B) I'm so thankful that Ben C doesn't have the same mindset as impatient doom and gloom fans.
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Post by mwgray13 on May 26, 2014 14:34:34 GMT -5
If the Sox were winning, than we would let Xander develop. Well... this is Boston, and we expect to win every year , and right now we are not, so time for some change. Next year, he should be a SS, and back up SS for the rest of this year. Drew is essentially a win now move without having to trade or lose any one of importance... Sorry Herrera, I never thought you had a fair chance in Boston.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on May 26, 2014 15:58:31 GMT -5
If the Sox were winning, than we would let Xander develop. Well... this is Boston, and we expect to win every year , and right now we are not, so time for some change. Next year, he should be a SS, and back up SS for the rest of this year. Drew is essentially a win now move without having to trade or lose any one of importance... Sorry Herrera, I never thought you had a fair chance in Boston. I don't hear any Orioles fans complaining they ruined Manny Machado's career by playing him for a few years at 3b to help the team. When Hardy's contract is up, he will move back to shortstop. He's a better defensive shortstop than Xander too. You play to win the game. If the Boston Red Sox are better with Xander at 3B, so be it.
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Post by taftreign on May 26, 2014 22:06:36 GMT -5
If the Sox were winning, than we would let Xander develop. Well... this is Boston, and we expect to win every year , and right now we are not, so time for some change. Next year, he should be a SS, and back up SS for the rest of this year. Drew is essentially a win now move without having to trade or lose any one of importance... Sorry Herrera, I never thought you had a fair chance in Boston. I don't hear any Orioles fans complaining they ruined Manny Machado's career by playing him for a few years at 3b to help the team. When Hardy's contract is up, he will move back to shortstop. He's a better defensive shortstop than Xander too. You play to win the game. If the Boston Red Sox are better with Xander at 3B, so be it. I don't believe it's a given Machado is moving back to SS. He was a platinum glove last year playing 3B. My personal thought is he's the Orioles 3B for the next decade and they will look at the FA or trade market to find a SS if Hardy isn't resigned.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 26, 2014 22:13:15 GMT -5
Machado is a bit of a different case because there's not really any question of him being a capable shortstop, whereas Xander actually kinda needs the reps there.
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