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6/9-6/11 Red Sox @ Orioles Series Thread
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Post by Jonathan Singer on Jun 9, 2014 8:02:29 GMT -5
6/9 Red Sox (RHP Jake Peavy 1-3 4.72) @ Orioles (RHP Bud Norris 4-5 4.41) 7:05 pm ET, NESN/WEEI6/10 Red Sox (RHP Brandon Workman 0-0 3.74) @ Orioles (RHP Chris Tillman 5-2 5.20) 7:05 pm ET, NESN/MLBN/WEEI6/11 Red Sox (RHP Rubby De La Rosa 1-1 2.84) @ Orioles (LHP Wei-Yin Chen 6-2 4.13) 8:07 pm ET, NESN/ESPN/WEEIMLB StandingsRed Sox Hitting StatsRed Sox Pitching StatsMLB ScoreboardMLB TransactionsWeatherSeries Thread Disclaimer: The SoxProspects Moderators will be somewhat liberal in policing the Red Sox "Series" Threads. Some of the Ground Rules are applied loosely in here, as we understand that there is a tendency to want to react (or overreact) to every play of a Sox game with one line reactionary posts. Those posts are okay in the Red Sox Series threads to a point - we certainly appreciate the passion. Just try not to overdo it, and try to maintain some semblance of reason. In addition, please don't let those type of posts spill over to other more substantive threads, where they may be deleted. -The Management
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 9, 2014 9:31:28 GMT -5
Didn't know where to put this. Feel free to move. Gammo was on WEEI this morning. When he's not touting the company line he can be pretty informative. He said that he doesn't think Buchholz has been comfortable pitching since his 2011 injury and wonders if he'll be able to get back to what he was. Said nobody knows what to expect.
Also, mentioned that Cherington was still a big WMB supporter.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 9, 2014 9:34:48 GMT -5
Didn't know where to put this. Feel free to move. Gammo was on WEEI this morning. When he's not touting the company line he can be pretty informative. He said that he doesn't think Buchholz has been comfortable pitching since his 2011 injury and wonders if he'll be able to get back to what he was. Said nobody knows what to expect. Also, mentioned that Cherington was still a big WMB supporter. Buchholz wasn't comfortable when he had about 13 starts of low 1's ERA and a 9-0 record last season?
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Post by okin15 on Jun 9, 2014 9:55:56 GMT -5
Buchholz doesn't seem like a person who is very comfortable in his own skin. Mentally, I think he'll always be a mess.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 9, 2014 10:13:42 GMT -5
Buchholz doesn't seem like a person who is very comfortable in his own skin. Mentally, I think he'll always be a mess. If you're not mentally tough by the time you're 30, doubt it's going to kick in. Maybe he has a burst at the end of the season and we can dump him on Theo. I honestly think Rubby, Ranaudo and Webster will probably give us as much as Buchholz, Peavy and Doubront will the rest of the year.
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Post by jmei on Jun 9, 2014 10:51:15 GMT -5
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Post by okin15 on Jun 9, 2014 11:00:56 GMT -5
To be clear, I don't think a) Buck is crazy, or b) he's a worthless pitcher, I think he lacks mental toughness which allows him to show up to ST unprepared, or spiral if he's not pitching well, or keeps him from quickly adjusting to tough injuries quite like some of the other top athletes in MLB.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jun 9, 2014 11:12:52 GMT -5
To be clear, I don't think a) Buck is crazy, or b) he's a worthless pitcher, I think he lacks mental toughness which allows him to show up to ST unprepared, or spiral if he's not pitching well, or keeps him from quickly adjusting to tough injuries quite like some of the other top athletes in MLB. I said this before, don't want to keep repeating myself, but if you remember his starts before his DL stint last year he worked very quickly. Get the ball throw the ball. I think now he is killing himself with how much he thinks about his approach. I'd like to see him trust himself and the catcher a little more.
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Post by godot on Jun 9, 2014 11:20:09 GMT -5
Thanks, gave me a different perspective on the kid
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Post by jmei on Jun 9, 2014 11:25:28 GMT -5
To be clear, I don't think a) Buck is crazy, or b) he's a worthless pitcher, I think he lacks mental toughness which allows him to show up to ST unprepared, or spiral if he's not pitching well, or keeps him from quickly adjusting to tough injuries quite like some of the other top athletes in MLB. I said this before, don't want to keep repeating myself, but if you remember his starts before his DL stint last year he worked very quickly. Get the ball throw the ball. I think now he is killing himself with how much he thinks about his approach. I'd like to see him trust himself and the catcher a little more. This feels like you have the causation backwards. When your stuff is as crisp as it's ever been and you're commanding it well, it's really easy to work quickly and not think too much about what pitch to throw. When your stuff is flat and you can't locate it down in the zone, you really do have to think about what you're going to throw.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 9, 2014 11:31:29 GMT -5
To be clear, I don't think a) Buck is crazy, You're gonna drive me crazy by calling him "Buck" though. It's very far removed from the correct way to pronounce the name.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 9, 2014 11:38:51 GMT -5
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Post by godot on Jun 9, 2014 11:40:44 GMT -5
Sometimes it is hard to figure out the cause- effect relationship between poor mechanics or lack of mental toughness. Poor mechanics can turn you into a mediocre pitcher who also loses their confidence, duh, which is probably the case with Clay. A lack of concentration and mental toughness, whatever that is, may prevent one from regaining their mechanics. But can it result in losing your mechanics?
Can't help but think of Bard when it comes to Clay. Apparently Bard pitched poorly in his first few minor league games, hitting and walking batters.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jun 9, 2014 11:43:34 GMT -5
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 9, 2014 11:45:53 GMT -5
Look, I don't care what any American, including Clay himself, thinks how the name should be pronounced. It's clearly a German name and everyone in Germany will agree with me.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,660
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Post by cdj on Jun 9, 2014 11:47:31 GMT -5
Sometimes it is hard to figure out the cause- effect relationship between poor mechanics or lack of mental toughness. Poor mechanics can turn you into a mediocre pitcher who also loses their confidence, duh, which is probably the case with Clay. A lack of concentration and mental toughness, whatever that is, may prevent one from regaining their mechanics. But can it result in losing your mechanics? Can't help but think of Bard when it comes to Clay. Apparently Bard pitched poorly in his first few minor league games, hitting and walking batters. Buchholz and Bard ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,017
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 9, 2014 11:49:05 GMT -5
To be clear, I don't think a) Buck is crazy, or b) he's a worthless pitcher, I think he lacks mental toughness which allows him to show up to ST unprepared, or spiral if he's not pitching well, or keeps him from quickly adjusting to tough injuries quite like some of the other top athletes in MLB. Almost by definition, Buchholz's inconsistency has a mental origin, but I think that a "lack of mental toughness" is a terrible and needlessly complex explanation. First of all, I'm not sure that "mental toughness" even exists, per se: anything that would deserve that name is almost certainly a compound of multiple traits which wouldn't necessarily be correlated with one another. But even granted that Buchholz has a constellation of such traits that add up that description, a guy who was so lacking in "mental toughness" that he was as inconsistent as Buchholz has been wouldn't have made it out of A ball. I mean, really, you're talking about a brand of "mental toughness" that only seems to manifest itself in terms of his ability to regain his mechanics after he's been injured. So, hmmm ... wild guess here ... maybe his problem is that he's not wired neurologically to regain his mechanics after he's been injured? Proprioception (the internal sense of where your body, limbs and digits are) is one of an athlete's most important senses. Without excellent proprioception, a pitcher can't repeat his delivery. Some pitchers have such good proprioception that it even overrides the sensation of pain, and they can keep their deliveries even when pitching hurt -- think Pedro in relief against the Indians in Game 5 of the '99 ALDS, or Matt Clement pitching like an ace even while his shoulder was unraveling to the point of being unrepairable by surgery. Most pitchers alter their mechanics when hurt, though, and usually without realizing it. Clay obviously has the usual ace's gift of repeating his mechanics once they're properly established. What he seems to lack is any long-term memory of what his proper mechanics are. Every time he pitches hurt, he loses his mechanics, which is not that unusual, but when he comes back later, he does so with mechanics messed up to one degree or another, and has to re-learn them. As a neuroscience / psych guy it's easy for me to imagine that the ability to store an accurate sense of as complex a motion as pitching is not as easy as storing the mechanics of the proverbial riding a bike ... and that pitchers differ in their ability to keep that "muscle memory" long-term. This strikes me as a vastly more parsimonious explanation of his inconsistency than "lack of mental toughness."
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,660
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Post by cdj on Jun 9, 2014 11:49:42 GMT -5
Look, I don't care what any American, including Clay himself, thinks how the name should be pronounced. It's clearly a German name and everyone in Germany will agree with me. Uhhhhh WTF? Nobody cares about A) what you think the pronunciation should be and B) What Germany thinks the pronunciation should be. It's Buck-holtz. Buck is an apt nickname.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 9, 2014 11:54:48 GMT -5
Uhhhhh WTF? Nobody cares about A) what you think the pronunciation should be and B) What Germany thinks the pronunciation should be. It's Buck-holtz. Buck is an apt nickname. I don't care whether you care. It's almost a word (a contraction of "Buchenholz"), so when I see it, I know how it must be pronounced.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 9, 2014 11:57:06 GMT -5
Can we start over?
The Red Sox and Orioles are going to play three baseball games.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 9, 2014 11:58:56 GMT -5
Can we start over? The Red Sox and Orioles are going to play three baseball games. Is that the American version of cricket?
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 9, 2014 12:02:44 GMT -5
Sort of, but with less crumpets and colder beer.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 9, 2014 12:03:49 GMT -5
Look, I don't care what any American, including Clay himself, thinks how the name should be pronounced. It's clearly a German name and everyone in Germany will agree with me. In that case....I think Clay should heretofore be referred to as.... Herr Buchholz by all members of this website....until he no longer pitches for the Sox. All those if favor....say "AYE"
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Post by godot on Jun 9, 2014 12:10:55 GMT -5
I like Eric's explanation. However, do not know much about the neurology he noted, other than "motor memory" is important in hitting. Still makes some sense.
"Mental toughness" is a hard term to term to define if you are looking for a referent for the term. I am of the school that a term commonly and frequently used has a meaning. It may not refer to a "thing", but can be a short hand or sign for certain behavioral traits such as ability to concentrate and focus and maintain confidence. Whether these traits can be reduced to a physical base is beyond me, but would not be surprised if there was a correlation.
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Post by marrcus on Jun 9, 2014 12:39:45 GMT -5
"Cherington was still a big WMB supporter. " ---------------------------------------------
The problem now is that WMB doesn't have a position (supporter or not). I think Farrell said X would not go back to ss on days Drew is going to face a LHP.
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