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6/23-6/25 Red Sox @ Mariners Series Thread
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Post by jmei on Jun 26, 2014 7:51:38 GMT -5
If only we had signed him, Nelson Cruz, and every other player outperforming expectations, we'd be all set! Man, this GM stuff is easy! Most of the Einstein's on the board wanted to sign McCann. That's where 16m of that 22 goes. Have to spend the rest on pitching. So much for helping the team there. Same OBP as AJP. Oh, you owe him 16m for the next 4 years. And, you didn't have a first round pick this year. Great suggestion fellas. McCann is having a flukey bad BABIP year, with a LD% of 23.2% (a career-high) but a BABIP of just .232 (a career-low). He's still an excellent defender, and when that BABIP bounces back, he'll be the same excellent hitter he's been most of his career. I'd still sign him if I could go back and do so.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 26, 2014 7:53:19 GMT -5
As John Farrell alluded to in his WEEI interview today, Pierzynski was available on a one-year deal, was left-handed, and (despite the poor OBP) had been a league averagish hitter over the past few years, which is pretty good for a catcher. Those were the qualities that led them to sign him. I thought at the time (and still think) that they overemphasized the need for a one-year guy and should have signed Saltalamacchia or McCann instead. I was right with you on that. Hell, a QO on Salty would've kept him here if they wanted a one year deal and they could've gone straight L-R platoon. Since Vazquez would be minimum, I would find whatever team needs a catcher most and eat the salary in exchange for a B- level prospect or better, or a bag of chips. Y'know, whatever you can get. Exactly what were you right on? Giving Salty a QO? Yeah, we'd be significantly better with him than AJP?? Puh-leez. Don't embarrass yourself by patting yourself on the back here all the time. That move doesn't even help in hindsight. I thought you wanted McCann. How's he doing??
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Post by Guidas on Jun 26, 2014 8:18:59 GMT -5
Dude, I was basically admitting I was wrong about McCann, which is, as far as I can tell, is patting myself somewhere else. As for embarrassment, I made a mistake once before so I got past that whole embarrassment thing,
As for Salty, vs. RHP he's .244/.362./437 with 6 HRs, 26BB and hit into 5DPs (straight platoon part I referenced - .246/346/.411 overall - but I would only bat him vs LHP in an emergency/when forces to).
Pierzynski has been .254/.284/.360 with 3 Hrs and has hit into 11 DPs. We could talk about park effects sapping a bit of Salty's opportunities in Miami too.
So, yeah, Salty has been better. All Star better, no, but better. And he's always been accountable with the media which holds weight with teammates rather than the, "It's not my fault approach of the current catcher."
And I would've QO'd Salty simply because it would've lessened his chance of leaving for 1 year, and if someone really wanted a 28 year old catcher with pop for more than a year, we would've received a draft choice.
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Post by godot on Jun 26, 2014 8:27:29 GMT -5
Salty has always been streaky. One should see where he is at the end of the year before one makes pronouncements that his loss was no loss. He also developed a good relationship to the pitching staff and as Guidas, notes he was a good teammate.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 26, 2014 8:32:36 GMT -5
Salty has always been streaky. One should see where he is at the end of the year before one makes pronouncements that his loss was no loss. He also developed a good relationship to the pitching staff and as Guidas, notes he was a good teammate. And, got benched in the World Series. And, under Guidas proposal we see more David Ross. That's lateral production at 5m more than what we signed AJP for.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 26, 2014 8:36:49 GMT -5
Dude, I was basically admitting I was wrong about McCann, which is, as far as I can tell, is patting myself somewhere else. As for embarrassment, I made a mistake once before so I got past that whole embarrassment thing, As for Salty, vs. RHP he's .244/.362./437 with 6 HRs, 26BB and hit into 5DPs (straight platoon part I referenced - .246/346/.411 overall - but I would only bat him vs LHP in an emergency/when forces to). Pierzynski has been .254/.284/.360 with 3 Hrs and has hit into 11 DPs. We could talk about park effects sapping a bit of Salty's opportunities in Miami too. So, yeah, Salty has been better. All Star better, no, but better. And he's always been accountable with the media which holds weight with teammates rather than the, "It's not my fault approach of the current catcher." And I would've QO'd Salty simply because it would've lessened his chance of leaving for 1 year, and if someone really wanted a 28 year old catcher with pop for more than a year, we would've received a draft choice. Did last year happen in your world? What the bleep has Cherington done to piss you off? Please, don't go to Abreu. You've been told numerous times that wasn't practical. He let Ellsbury walk. Good move. Didn't lock up long-term money in McCann. Hasn't worked out at those positions this year. But, is probably going to work out swimmingly very shortly with Betts in CF and Swihart/Vazquez behind the dish.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 26, 2014 8:41:35 GMT -5
That's still signing a DH/1b the last couple of years of his deal in all likelihood. Boston probably would have been more interested in VMart had they figured he could have caught more than a couple of years, as he was a good hitting catcher also and had learned to catch respectively by the time he had left, tho not of course at McCann's level.
I still think the Sox should have bottom fed on catchers over this past winter among Navaro, Suzuki etc.. Not spending much and therefore not losing much should they not produce and getting a bonus if they did. They knew AJP wasn't going to provide any defense and had to figure Vazquez would be ready by the AS break at the latest (which he is). That sign is going to go down as one of their worst in years, the amount, his hacking at the 1st pitch, attitude.. All the way around.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 26, 2014 8:45:27 GMT -5
Another thing to add. No 1st round pick if you sign McCann. No Chief Chavis.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 26, 2014 9:24:12 GMT -5
I insisted all winter that we should trade for Ryan Hanigan, who has a 98 wRC+ versus AJP's 72, and is a far better defender, and an elite pitch framer. Hanigan ranks 18th among 30 MLB C (150 PA min) in WAR/150G, with 2.5, but that's without the pitch framing. AJP ranks 25th with 0.7.
The Reds traded Hanigan for LHP prospect David Holmberg. I think we could have had him for Britton and a lesser prospect, or for Brian Johnson. Cherington has not hesitated to overpay on paper for a guy he really wants, so it's kind of galling to see him trading four years of Lowrie plus a prospect for 3 years of Melancon, etc., but be unwilling to use the system depth to get a clearly superior player to AJP (and one who would be around for 2 years to transition to Swihart).
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 26, 2014 9:36:37 GMT -5
I insisted all winter that we should trade for Ryan Hanigan, who has a 98 wRC+ versus AJP's 72, and is a far better defender, and an elite pitch framer. Hanigan ranks 18th among 30 MLB C (150 PA min) in WAR/150G, with 2.5, but that's without the pitch framing. AJP ranks 25th with 0.7. The Reds traded Hanigan for LHP prospect David Holmberg. I think we could have had him for Britton and a lesser prospect, or for Brian Johnson. Cherington has not hesitated to overpay on paper for a guy he really wants, so it's kind of galling to see him trading four years of Lowrie plus a prospect for 3 years of Melancon, etc., but be unwilling to use the system depth to get a clearly superior player to AJP (and one who would be around for 2 years to transition to Swihart). If we're going to run with Vazquez, probably soon. I'm guessing AJP gets dealt. Wouldn't mind a defense first guy like Ross next year. To pair with Vazquez. Just pinch-hit for either one in high-leverage situations.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jun 26, 2014 10:52:07 GMT -5
I at the time also thought Salty should have gotten a QO. I've hedged that a little bit after seeing what catchers were getting on the market, but I still to this day think it wouldn't have been a terrible move. Small overpay from a big market club, we can handle that.
McCann was and will continue to be a short sighted overpay. He is playing worst than would have been expected but I didn't really expect him to be all that great. People were pretending like they lost Cano, but signed McCann, so it is a wash on the offensive side, because McCann will hit 100 HR with the short porch. McCann was basically an equal value hitter as Salty from 2012-13. He's also not going to play more than 120 games (which is reasonable for a catcher) and will likely have to move off the position in the later years of the contract.
I remember seeing the Ellsbury, McCann, Choo, Beltran deals and being happy that Cherington stayed out of it, as they were all too long of commitments. I remember seeing the Tanaka deal and being happy we didn't go that high, but very very disappointed that we were not one of the 5 finalist. Not going three years on Rios makes sense.
IIRC, there were three catcher deals on the same day, AJ, Salty, and Hanigan, and although I didn't think the AJ deal was terrible I thought it was the worst of the three. Hanigan was traded for and extended for peanuts, although they didn't want to go three years on Salty he signed a very low AAV contract that I would have been happy to carry for three years.
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Post by grandsalami on Jun 26, 2014 11:21:48 GMT -5
Another thing to add. No 1st round pick if you sign McCann. No Chief Chavis. And no 1st round money. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by mattpicard on Jun 26, 2014 11:48:08 GMT -5
Just randomly pointing out that Daniel Nava now leads the entire team in OBP vs. RHP (.368). Glad I could finally retire my avatar.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 26, 2014 11:59:34 GMT -5
Problem there are guys doing better than him and making far less on teams out of the hunt.. Namely Hannigan and Suzuki. Suzuki has an OBP 80 points higher and is making less than half what AJP is and the Twins are headed nowhere. Why would anyone take AJP over Suzuki? Same with the superb glove Hannigan, who is signed for 2 more years at barely what AJP is getting this season, Tampa could move him.
getting rid of P is a salary dump taking back -0- in return.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 26, 2014 12:03:02 GMT -5
I at the time also thought Salty should have gotten a QO. I've hedged that a little bit after seeing what catchers were getting on the market, but I still to this day think it wouldn't have been a terrible move. Small overpay from a big market club, we can handle that. McCann was and will continue to be a short sighted overpay. He is playing worst than would have been expected but I didn't really expect him to be all that great. People were pretending like they lost Cano, but signed McCann, so it is a wash on the offensive side, because McCann will hit 100 HR with the short porch. McCann was basically an equal value hitter as Salty from 2012-13. He's also not going to play more than 120 games (which is reasonable for a catcher) and will likely have to move off the position in the later years of the contract. I remember seeing the Ellsbury, McCann, Choo, Beltran deals and being happy that Cherington stayed out of it, as they were all too long of commitments. I remember seeing the Tanaka deal and being happy we didn't go that high, but very very disappointed that we were not one of the 5 finalist. Not going three years on Rios makes sense. IIRC, there were three catcher deals on the same day, AJ, Salty, and Hanigan, and although I didn't think the AJ deal was terrible I thought it was the worst of the three. Hanigan was traded for and extended for peanuts, although they didn't want to go three years on Salty he signed a very low AAV contract that I would have been happy to carry for three years. There were a few of us on the board who felt the same way, that an overpay for a dependable carryover to Vazquez/Swihart was a good deal. Given the money they burned on Sizemore, that seems even more obvious - thanks to the ever dependable hindsight of course. Ross really can't play more than one or two games a week any longer, all the silliness about a 75-100 game season for him aside. That really exposes a guy like Pierzynski who doesn't bring enough with the bat these days to make up for the defensive shortcomings. He's durable enough that he'll end up playing 130+ games, but you pay for it over the season. I do think that McCann will pick it up at some point. The only questions I had about any Sox' interest, were the same ones you have - the longterm obligation feels like a dead weight at some point. Maybe you want to be paying that much for a player who'll be a fulltime DH in another year or so. But as others have pointed out, that seems to be a trend that's on a downward swing. Instead, I increasingly like the idea of having players who can move around the diamond. Moonstone got me thinking about that when he brought up Tony Phillips a while back. Holt and Betts, Bogaerts to a lesser extent, and potentially a few others also - such as Swihart and maybe Chavis? - seem to fit that MO. Those are good athletes with the flexibility to really change the way the team structures its roster. Maybe that becomes more important going forward. Instead of reserving a spot for a DH, you can rotate that spot and get a lot more for your money, and that money means more than it used to thanks to the CBA.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jun 26, 2014 13:12:41 GMT -5
Didn't see much of the west coast trip. Good to see the legend of Brock Holt rolling on. Never thought he'd by the sox's best rookie half-way through 2014. JBJ is starting to hit and I think Xander will hit wherever he ends up playing. Sure would like to see them put a hurting on the Yanks this weekend.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2014 14:07:23 GMT -5
As an aside, we received confirmation today regarding Lackey's contract. The MLBPA got back to me regarding the following question:
"I wondered if someone at the MLBPA might be able to help answer a question I have regarding the current CBA and John Lackey's rights under his existing contract with the Red Sox. Lackey recently suggested he might retire rather than play out the 2015 season at a contractually agreed upon league minimum salary. Were Lackey to actually sit out 2015, would the Red Sox retain rights over him into 2016 and beyond at a league minimum salary? The way I see it, the term of the contract would have expired and Lackey would be a free agent at the end of 2015. Is this correct or am I missing something under the CBA? Thank you in advance."
The MLBPA's response was rather succinct:
"No, the Red Sox would not retain rights to John in 2016 under the circumstances you describe."
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Post by Guidas on Jun 26, 2014 14:22:54 GMT -5
Dude, I was basically admitting I was wrong about McCann, which is, as far as I can tell, is patting myself somewhere else. As for embarrassment, I made a mistake once before so I got past that whole embarrassment thing, As for Salty, vs. RHP he's .244/.362./437 with 6 HRs, 26BB and hit into 5DPs (straight platoon part I referenced - .246/346/.411 overall - but I would only bat him vs LHP in an emergency/when forces to). Pierzynski has been .254/.284/.360 with 3 Hrs and has hit into 11 DPs. We could talk about park effects sapping a bit of Salty's opportunities in Miami too. So, yeah, Salty has been better. All Star better, no, but better. And he's always been accountable with the media which holds weight with teammates rather than the, "It's not my fault approach of the current catcher." And I would've QO'd Salty simply because it would've lessened his chance of leaving for 1 year, and if someone really wanted a 28 year old catcher with pop for more than a year, we would've received a draft choice. Did last year happen in your world? What the bleep has Cherington done to piss you off? Please, don't go to Abreu. You've been told numerous times that wasn't practical. He let Ellsbury walk. Good move. Didn't lock up long-term money in McCann. Hasn't worked out at those positions this year. But, is probably going to work out swimmingly very shortly with Betts in CF and Swihart/Vazquez behind the dish. I believe after the World Series and throughout this year I have been pretty consistent to say I am giving the F.O. a mulligan this year after winning the WS. And other than not making the team better in the off season, Cherrington did nothing to piss me off. And that didn't really piss me off, just seemed like a wasted opportunity when the Sox have so many "win now" players on the current roster. My frustration is that this division is completely winnable and a big move or two in the off season would've had this team better position to take it. It's not all about free agents, either. I like our prospects as much as anyone, but I'm probably more likely than most here to have considered using all but one or two (Xander, Mookie then; Mookie, Swihart now*) in a deal or deals to shore up positions of need with a star or near star player. I've been pretty clear that I think a team at this salary level should in fact integrate a long term, market-value deal for an all star player once every 3-4 years - not a randomly chosen all star player, of course - and we all have/had our faves (I was all in for Tanaka because of his stuff and age). But really, do you agree with everything the GM of this team or any other team you follow is right? I've never been a blind faith kind of guy, personally, though I certainly had more faith in Theo than I currently do in Ben - despite some of his bad moves (I never wanted Lugo or Renteria, and I would've never let Beltre go) - because he had more of a track record of excellence over more years, at least in my opinion. So far I've seen Cherrington have one bad year, one good year and one giant gift put in his lap. This year's still in flux but looking rather ratty. And even if I loved everything else he did - and with the mulligan included - I can still dislike the Pierzynski acquisition. *Xander's a starter now, not a prospect for all intents and purposes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2014 14:31:04 GMT -5
Ben did so much right with the Punto trade and with last year's acquisitions that, in my personal opinion, he's worthy of some goodwill. That being said, this coming trade deadline has the potential to establish his legacy for the foreseeable future. I just hope he makes the right decisions.
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Post by mgoetze on Jun 26, 2014 14:31:08 GMT -5
But really, do you agree with everything the GM of this team or any other team you follow is right? Yes. In the Hoodie we trust.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 26, 2014 14:57:04 GMT -5
But really, do you agree with everything the GM of this team or any other team you follow is right? Yes. In the Hoodie we trust. That's about as close as I get. As a UConn alum I was pretty close with Coach Calhoun and already right there with Coach Ollie. But I would fire UConn's AD and President for blowing the ACC deal (considering the dollars and opportunities lost, I'd fire their Board of Trustees if they didn't fire the Prez & AD, too), but I digress.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 26, 2014 15:58:00 GMT -5
The Sox have averaged just 3.3 RS/G on this trip, but they have 3 guys hitting the ball great and another 3 doing fine:
.364 / .440 / .682 Napoli .320 / .393 / .560 Ortiz .400 / .471 / .400 Nava .286 / .355 / .429 Pedroia .290 / .333 / .419 Holt .292 / .320 / .375 Bradley
.200 / .333 / .200 Gomes .136 / .167 / .136 Pierzynski .080 / .115 / .080 Bogaerts .000 / .000 / .000 Drew
.333 / .333 / .833 Ross .111 / .200 / .333 Herrera
In 2 of those games, we had the six guys going well batting in succession, starting with Bradley 9, Holt, Pedroia, Ortiz, Napoli, Nava ... and we scored 3 total runs.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2014 16:47:30 GMT -5
Just randomly pointing out that Daniel Nava now leads the entire team in OBP vs. RHP (.368). Glad I could finally retire my avatar. And Gomes is now down to a 40 wRC+ with a 37.2% K-rate. I think I'll leave my signature for awhile.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 26, 2014 16:52:01 GMT -5
Problem there are guys doing better than him and making far less on teams out of the hunt.. Namely Hannigan and Suzuki. Suzuki has an OBP 80 points higher and is making less than half what AJP is and the Twins are headed nowhere. Why would anyone take AJP over Suzuki? Same with the superb glove Hannigan, who is signed for 2 more years at barely what AJP is getting this season, Tampa could move him. getting rid of P is a salary dump taking back -0- in return. Hanigan signed his extension after the trade. If we only wanted him for a year, we easily could have had him.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 26, 2014 19:11:25 GMT -5
Ben did so much right with the Punto trade and with last year's acquisitions that, in my personal opinion, he's worthy of some goodwill. That being said, this coming trade deadline has the potential to establish his legacy for the foreseeable future. I just hope he makes the right decisions. I don't give Ben credit for the Punto trade. That was done above him. I do give him credit for identifying Webster and Rubby though. I also don't blame him for hiring Bobby V. That was all Larry Lucchino. Even though we sucked in 2012. It was on Bobby V and the players not Ben. You can give him a C+ since he didn't make any good moves. He gets an A+++ for 2013. Every thing he touched turned into gold. Another thing I give him credit for. All the armchair GM's wanted to trade Jacoby because he was going to leave after the next season. He held onto him. Got a ring and a 1st round pick for him. Not saying we win it next year. But, think about that before dumping Lackey, Lester and Koji. I'd give him a C+ this year too for not giving in to the monster and handing out absurd contracts to guys like; Jacoby, Beltran, McCann. Players who would have marginally helped this team win 84 games. But, are going to hamper your flexibility down the road. The mistake Theo made time and time again. Ben has learned and ain't going there. Good for him. We're not going for it every year. That's the best strategy for everyone sans the Yankees. And, they've won one out of the last 13. Whoopteedamndoo. I don't mind criticism of any moves he makes. But, let's put them in context. Is Salty better than AJP? Maybe. Maybe not. We're in the same boat either way. Not exactly a fireable offense. Or, the I would have picked up so and so and am smarter than BC tone too many posters think like.
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