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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 4, 2017 14:31:14 GMT -5
There is also far, far more travel for west coast teams, so I doubt the amount of time on a plane is much of a factor. Fair point. It does make flying home simpler, however, if he can fly direct. Also makes traveling simpler for family. I also found this map interesting. So to sum up: Cities on this map with large Asian populations: San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago (and others) Cities with teams who are finalists for Otani: San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago If you eliminate the Acela corridor and Detroit (rebuild), that makes sense. Makes me wonder why Houston isn't on the list though. Doesn't want to look like a front-runner? Uhhhhh....a Japanese person doesn't care about 'Asian' population centers.... The highest population% of Japanese-American in MLB cities are Seattle (1.6%), San Francisco (1.5%) and Los Angeles (1%). I'm surprised that the Rangers are still on his list.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 4, 2017 15:48:59 GMT -5
Nobody chooses to live in Houston, do they?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 4, 2017 18:10:56 GMT -5
Fair point. It does make flying home simpler, however, if he can fly direct. Also makes traveling simpler for family. I also found this map interesting. So to sum up: Cities on this map with large Asian populations: San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago (and others) Cities with teams who are finalists for Otani: San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago If you eliminate the Acela corridor and Detroit (rebuild), that makes sense. Makes me wonder why Houston isn't on the list though. Doesn't want to look like a front-runner? Uhhhhh....a Japanese person doesn't care about 'Asian' population centers.... The highest population% of Japanese-American in MLB cities are Seattle (1.6%), San Francisco (1.5%) and Los Angeles (1%). I'm surprised that the Rangers are still on his list. Crap, my sincerest apologies if I came off insensitive or something - I definitely should've included a caveat to the effect that this was the closest thing I found after a very quick Google search to Japanese-American population numbers. I obviously understand that "Asian" is overbroad in this case, but was just using it as a stand-in. Again, my bad if that wasn't clear, which I guess it couldn't have been without me saying so.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 4, 2017 19:08:14 GMT -5
People from the Northeast always get so confused when people prefer something other than the Northeast. Seriously, "rich Japanese guy prefers to live and work on the west coast or Chicago to the cities of the east coast" is a pretty frequent decision. i agree with the 2nd sentence. however he is clearly giving up somethig by avoiding the 2 demonstrably best baseball markets in the world. i am surprised and hope he has great success, except against us.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 4, 2017 20:37:24 GMT -5
People from the Northeast always get so confused when people prefer something other than the Northeast. Seriously, "rich Japanese guy prefers to live and work on the west coast or Chicago to the cities of the east coast" is a pretty frequent decision. i agree with the 2nd sentence. however he is clearly giving up something by avoiding the 2 demonstrably best baseball markets in the world. i am surprised and hope he has great success, except against us. He's only 24. He may want to dip his toe into the culture (Pacific side) before exposing himself to what the corridor offers. That's largely empty noise-making from the likes of, say, Felger & Maz, or the hand-wringing, soap-opera flavored intrigue of Heyman. It's not as if he won't have a chance to do that in the future.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 5, 2017 8:06:43 GMT -5
People from the Northeast always get so confused when people prefer something other than the Northeast. Seriously, "rich Japanese guy prefers to live and work on the west coast or Chicago to the cities of the east coast" is a pretty frequent decision. i agree with the 2nd sentence. however he is clearly giving up somethig by avoiding the 2 demonstrably best baseball markets in the world. i am surprised and hope he has great success, except against us. That... kind of shows my point. There's nothing objectively "better" about the Boston and New York baseball markets. Seattle and Chicago fans are just as passionate and knowledgeable.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 5, 2017 9:22:17 GMT -5
i agree with the 2nd sentence. however he is clearly giving up somethig by avoiding the 2 demonstrably best baseball markets in the world. i am surprised and hope he has great success, except against us. That... kind of shows my point. There's nothing objectively "better" about the Boston and New York baseball markets. Seattle and Chicago fans are just as passionate and knowledgeable. In fact I just got out of a meeting with high school kids in rural soCal in which the conversation turned to baseball. These Angels and Dodger fans not only knew a lot about Ohtani and Stanton but also Pedroia, Marco and Quiroz; Santana, Duda and Sabathia, etc. and everything about their own teams. And they actually enjoy the game without the insanely negative Boston and NY media to scar them perceptions.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 5, 2017 9:47:26 GMT -5
How can a baseball market be "demonstrably" the "best" when there's no hard criteria on what constitutes the "best" market? It's such a silly thing to say.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 5, 2017 10:19:29 GMT -5
So I'm sure this has been written about, but for whatever reason it never sunk in for me. From Keith Law's most recent chat on his own website: meadowparty.com/blog/2017/11/30/klawchat-11-30-17/Like I said, I'm sure it's more me than anything, but... wow. Also chuckled at this vaguely Ohtani-related bit:
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 5, 2017 10:30:28 GMT -5
Yeah, that hadn't really sunk in with me either. 80 speed for a pitcher is obviously nuts, but I wonder how rare that is for a pitcher to be really fast. Buchholz was supposedly nearly as fast as Ellsbury, when they were drafted, right? We just never see these guys in a full sprint - even if they get up to hit they're wisely told not to go into full speed and overexert. Like, if tomorrow I found out that Sale or Porcello or Joe Kelly was the fastest guy on the Red Sox, I'd be surprised for about 15 seconds and then be "yeah, I can see that actually." Actually, in Kelly's case I wouldn't even have the 15 seconds of surprise.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 5, 2017 10:42:52 GMT -5
Yeah, that hadn't really sunk in with me either. 80 speed for a pitcher is obviously nuts, but I wonder how rare that is for a pitcher to be really fast. Buchholz was supposedly nearly as fast as Ellsbury, when they were drafted, right? We just never see these guys in a full sprint - even if they get up to hit they're wisely told not to go into full speed and overexert. Like, if tomorrow I found out that Sale or Porcello or Joe Kelly was the fastest guy on the Red Sox, I'd be surprised for about 15 seconds and then be "yeah, I can see that actually." Actually, in Kelly's case I wouldn't even have the 15 seconds of surprise. Funny you mention Sale running. www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2017/02/chris_sale_new_boston_red_sox.html
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 5, 2017 18:01:06 GMT -5
i agree with the 2nd sentence. however he is clearly giving up somethig by avoiding the 2 demonstrably best baseball markets in the world. i am surprised and hope he has great success, except against us. That... kind of shows my point. There's nothing objectively "better" about the Boston and New York baseball markets. Seattle and Chicago fans are just as passionate and knowledgeable. there certainly is. Just the legacy the 2 teams have in baseball's history puts their markets above both you mentioned. I am not really trying to belittle other markets. I just think that if you wanted to have the most impact on your legacy / money / fame, these 2 markets offer the best chance to do that. I mean, if Mike Trout was playing in these markets, he could quite literally be making a run with Micheal Jordan as the most popular athlete ever. The fact that he plays in LA, which has not been and never will be the baseball market that is Boston or NY, is a major reason he isn't.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 5, 2017 18:07:35 GMT -5
How can a baseball market be "demonstrably" the "best" when there's no hard criteria on what constitutes the "best" market? It's such a silly thing to say. if you polled 100 GM's, or 100 players, or 100 sports writers, or 100 aliens in any variety of metricxs....I am going on record that 85 or 90 of them would label the Boston / NY markets as the 2 best markets for Baseball. You certainly can have different metrics where they wouldn't be, but in the aggregate it really isn't debatable. Also, you make posts with certitude very often. You don't see me referring to them as silly. I personally don't care if you do it every time, but I am going to call you on it being silly.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 5, 2017 18:22:34 GMT -5
How can a baseball market be "demonstrably" the "best" when there's no hard criteria on what constitutes the "best" market? It's such a silly thing to say. if you polled 100 GM's, or 100 players, or 100 sports writers, or 100 aliens in any variety of metricxs....I am going on record that 85 or 90 of them would label the Boston / NY markets as the 2 best markets for Baseball. You certainly can have different metrics where they wouldn't be, but in the aggregate it really isn't debatable. Also, you make posts with certitude very often. You don't see me referring to them as silly. I personally don't care if you do it every time, but I am going to call you on it being silly. What does "best" even mean to you though - never mind what someone else might think, but what you're saying right now? It's not an assertion for which it's clear what you're talking about. Best fans? Most media opportunity? Best franchise to play for? Best franchise historically? Most attention paid by local media? A combination of factors (if so, please name them)? Because yeah, I'd absolutely debate that Boston and New York are the "2 best baseball markets" by pretty much any measure.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 5, 2017 18:34:51 GMT -5
if you polled 100 GM's, or 100 players, or 100 sports writers, or 100 aliens in any variety of metricxs....I am going on record that 85 or 90 of them would label the Boston / NY markets as the 2 best markets for Baseball. You certainly can have different metrics where they wouldn't be, but in the aggregate it really isn't debatable. Also, you make posts with certitude very often. You don't see me referring to them as silly. I personally don't care if you do it every time, but I am going to call you on it being silly. What does "best" even mean to you though - never mind what someone else might think, but what you're saying right now? It's not an assertion for which it's clear what you're talking about. Best fans? Most media opportunity? Best franchise to play for? Best franchise historically? Most attention paid by local media? A combination of factors (if so, please name them)? Because yeah, I'd absolutely debate that Boston and New York are the "2 best baseball markets" by pretty much any measure. you could come up with a variety of different metrics where they may not be, i have acknowledged that. I guess i am curious as to why folks would need to split hairs on this question. I'll say this, when Boston play the MFY, that is when MLB is less concerned about all the factors that determine how best to market their game, relative to other league matchups. That says a lot to me.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 5, 2017 19:20:35 GMT -5
What does "best" even mean to you though - never mind what someone else might think, but what you're saying right now? It's not an assertion for which it's clear what you're talking about. Best fans? Most media opportunity? Best franchise to play for? Best franchise historically? Most attention paid by local media? A combination of factors (if so, please name them)? Because yeah, I'd absolutely debate that Boston and New York are the "2 best baseball markets" by pretty much any measure. you could come up with a variety of different metrics where they may not be, i have acknowledged that. I guess i am curious as to why folks would need to split hairs on this question. I'll say this, when Boston play the MFY, that is when MLB is less concerned about all the factors that determine how best to market their game, relative to other league matchups. That says a lot to me. I don't think anyone is splitting hairs. I just think we disagree with you about a basic assertion regarding the NY and Boston markets, their superiority to other markets (or lack thereof), and, I guess, to tie it back into this thread, how that matters in terms of drawing free agents. For example, I strongly disagree that your point about MLB's concerns about marketing don't apply when the Red Sox and Yankees play. In terms of ratings on their home networks, the Indians, Royals, and Cardinals were all ahead of the Red Sox, with the Yankees in 9th, and those top 3 teams far outpaced the rest of the league. www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2017/10/10/here-are-the-2017-mlb-prime-time-television-ratings-for-each-team/2/(BTW, if anyone can figure out what the heck the ESPN rank is there and if it's useful, that'd be great.)
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 5, 2017 20:00:03 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is splitting hairs. I just think we disagree with you about a basic assertion regarding the NY and Boston markets, their superiority to other markets (or lack thereof), and, I guess, to tie it back into this thread, how that matters in terms of drawing free agents. For example, I strongly disagree that your point about MLB's concerns about marketing don't apply when the Red Sox and Yankees play. In terms of ratings on their home networks, the Indians, Royals, and Cardinals were all ahead of the Red Sox, with the Yankees in 9th, and those top 3 teams far outpaced the rest of the league. www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2017/10/10/here-are-the-2017-mlb-prime-time-television-ratings-for-each-team/2/(BTW, if anyone can figure out what the heck the ESPN rank is there and if it's useful, that'd be great.) It is a good point, but it also a metric about viewership. Those teams have also had successful recent seasons, which may be contributing to a recency bias in the viewership. Those cities may also not have much else to do on a summer night. Boston and NY have a bigger variety of non baseball activities to compete for their interests. I do think other markets are gaining on the Boston / NY markets, in part because of revenue sharing. I really give the guy credit, it is more interesting, IMO, that he didn't go here or MFY. One other point. do you feel David Ortiz would have been as much of an icon in those other cities you named? St. Louis is a great market. Papi benefited most by playing in this market.....against the MFY. I think the player examples (see Mike Trout in Boston) prove my point more than what any given metric might attempt to do.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 5, 2017 20:09:20 GMT -5
I think David Ortiz is an icon in Boston. I think that extends probably through New England and into New York. I don't think he's an icon in, say, the midwest. For example, here in DC, I think more people know who Bryce Harper is than know who Ortiz is.
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Post by soxjim on Dec 6, 2017 0:21:57 GMT -5
I'm shocked he didn't at least consider the Yankees. When you are young you think you have a lot of time. The seasons go by quick. Sox and Yanks spend a lot of money in order to win. And they win a lot - unlike the Angels. In addition, they have an advantage over "Seattles" and "San Diegos." to close the door on the East Coast, I think odd. Maybe San Diego with their good farm. But how many times do we hear players regret not winning a title? Anyhow - good for him. He gets to choose and give it his best.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 6, 2017 12:50:14 GMT -5
Note that Ohtani narrowed to these seven based on memos he'd already received based on a memo that went out to all 30 teams. He wanted the teams to:
Those being the criteria that he felt were most important, at least in narrowing the list down, the finalists can now pitch him on their chances of winning.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 6, 2017 15:56:10 GMT -5
How can a baseball market be "demonstrably" the "best" when there's no hard criteria on what constitutes the "best" market? It's such a silly thing to say. if you polled 100 GM's, or 100 players, or 100 sports writers, or 100 aliens in any variety of metricxs....I am going on record that 85 or 90 of them would label the Boston / NY markets as the 2 best markets for Baseball. You certainly can have different metrics where they wouldn't be, but in the aggregate it really isn't debatable. Ok first off you still haven't defined your terms, but secondly, I absolutely (there I go again) promise you that if you polled 100 players about the best places to play, Boston would be the first choice of almost none of them.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 6, 2017 16:36:05 GMT -5
I think it's silly trying to argue that New York and Boston aren't two of the top Markets in Baseball. Ohtani own agent wanted him to consider NY due to the market. I also don't think a poll of where players want to play is even relevant when talking about the best Markets. That would be the players top places to play, not the top Baseball Markets. The top Baseball markets are about generating revenue and the amount of fans. Agents care about this because the top markets give their players a better chance to earn promotional income. www.forbes.com/mlb-valuations/list/#tab:overallbleacherreport.com/articles/961412-mlb-power-rankings-all-30-mlb-teams-by-market-sizeI would rank the Market as the Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox right now. You can debate that a little, but they are both top 5. Ohtani wanted the best fit, not the best market. He said that from day one, that's why I found it funny everyone thought he would go to New York. Good for him, that doesn't change the top Markets though.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 6, 2017 16:58:27 GMT -5
Who cares what the reasons are for not considering Boston or NY? Ohtani's reasons are his own and they're not wrong for him. Telling someone else they're wrong for making personal decisions is borderline psychotic.
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Post by Coreno on Dec 6, 2017 19:15:41 GMT -5
I'm not sure why so many are struggling the concept that biggest =/= best
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 6, 2017 21:36:51 GMT -5
Who cares what the reasons are for not considering Boston or NY? Ohtani's reasons are his own and they're not wrong for him. Telling someone else they're wrong for making personal decisions is borderline psychotic. i mean, who has said that. i didn't
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