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9/19-9/21 Red Sox @ Orioles Series Thread
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 21, 2014 7:43:08 GMT -5
That's your reality. With right-handed power at a premium, they got a bat that's just that. He's not perfect but he sure isn't a 33 year-old Jonny Gomes. Moreover, they don't get Castillo without freeing up the cash from Lester's salary. That's two bats. And while Craig is nothing but a lottery ticket at this point, if he is just a sunk cost for acquiring Kelly - a 26 year old with 4 full years of control after this season - he's DFAd. That won't come cheap but it's a cost the team is perfectly capable of dealing with. My guess is they'll eat some of his salary and trade him off if it comes to that. The idea that the Sox are bottom feeders unable to make any sort of bid for the pitching talent they want is silly. The notion that NY will simply outbid them for that talent even sillier. Also, disabuse yourself of the notion that there's "a hitter or two" out there to be gotten. The market has changed completely. You only have to examine the remains of Carlos Beltran and what the Yankees paid to get him - $30 million more in 2015-16 - to understand that.
Well, I never a lot of the things you're bringing up. 1. Never said Cespedes was another Gomes. He's much faster, more athletic and has a better arm. But I repeat: He doesn't get on base much. That's a big flaw in a BB player and can't be glossed over with "He's not perfect." 2. That's two bats? You're counting Castillo as an above-average ML bat? I hope so, but we'll see. The book on him is that he - all together now - doesn't walk much. We seem to be accumulating a lot of those guys. 3. Is Kelly anything other than a fourth or fifth starter type? 4. I never said the RS are bottom feeders who are unable to bid on players. I think you're big-time underestimating how difficult and expensive it is to get two top-of-the-rotation SP. You want Lester back? Be prepared to pay a minimum of $132 million (6 years/$22 million). Too expensive? So, you want to try Hamels instead? Which two or three of the top prospects do you want to give up for the right to pay Hamels $22 million/year? Shields? Probably $70-$80 million and a draft pick for a 33 year old. 5. Yes, the market has changed completely and that makes my point. If they're going to burn a ton of resources in prospects and money filling the top two rotation spots, there's not going to be much left to fix the offense. They have about $60 million to spend if they're going to stay under the $189 million. That can go fast when you need two to SP. Also, I have not read anywhere that the RS had to take on Craig to get Kelly and it doesn't make sense. Kelly is not the kind of asset that teams take on salary to get. And if Craig is - as you acknowledge is possible - a sunk cost, then that wipes out your argument that they'd have four years of control over Joe Kelly. Craig is under contract for another three years at an AAV of more than $6 million and they'd be eating that if they DFA'd him, as you suggest they might. Nobody acquires a Joe Kelly thinking that they have four years of control at a cost of $6 million/year plus whatever Kelly makes.
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 21, 2014 8:37:50 GMT -5
From a chance conversation with another team's minor league talent evaluator paraphrased as follows:
* 'JBJ can't hit. Despite that he exudes an unentitled swagger and is rumored to be very hard to coach. I would not want him on my team'.
* Likes the Sox farm system overall but not too high on its pitching.
* Loves Pedroia and says he is the Sox Jeter....gives it his all every time
* Thinks Papi is a great hitter but is too concerned with hrs and rbis...too often fighting the shift to augment those numbers.
* Rumor around baseball is that Lester and Sox have a handshake agreement that Lester will come back.
As to Bradley, I noticed that despite his initial wide-open stance, his back foot is against the inside batter's box line. When he closes upon delivery of a pitch, both feet are against the line. That coupled with his apparent long, round swing appears to get him continuously jammed on any pitch middle in.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2014 8:43:27 GMT -5
So much whining. Entitled generation of Sox fans. This is approximately the 25th most disappointing season I've seen.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 21, 2014 9:01:58 GMT -5
From a chance conversation with another team's minor league talent evaluator paraphrased as follows: * 'JBJ can't hit. Despite that he exudes an unentitled swagger and is rumored to be very hard to coach. I would not want him on my team'. * Likes the Sox farm system overall but not too high on its pitching. * Loves Pedroia and says he is the Sox Jeter....gives it his all every time * Thinks Papi is a great hitter but is too concerned with hrs and rbis...too often fighting the shift to augment those numbers. * Rumor around baseball is that Lester and Sox have a handshake agreement that Lester will come back. As to Bradley, I noticed that despite his initial wide-open stance, his back foot is against the inside batter's box line. When he closes upon delivery of a pitch, both feet are against the line. That coupled with his apparent long, round swing appears to get him continuously jammed on any pitch middle in. 1) That "rumor" is apparently passing along the same ridiculous one we all read a month ago. It's literally the opposite of everything we've heard about him. 2) Papi tries to fight the shift to hit home runs? Didn't realize they'd shifted guys to certain spots in the stands like Rock 'n Jock or something. Also didn't realize that "fighting the shift" to drive runs in was a bad thing. Not going to lie, this guy sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2014 9:16:08 GMT -5
From a chance conversation with another team's minor league talent evaluator paraphrased as follows: * 'JBJ can't hit. Despite that he exudes an unentitled swagger and is rumored to be very hard to coach. I would not want him on my team'. * Likes the Sox farm system overall but not too high on its pitching. * Loves Pedroia and says he is the Sox Jeter....gives it his all every time * Thinks Papi is a great hitter but is too concerned with hrs and rbis...too often fighting the shift to augment those numbers. * Rumor around baseball is that Lester and Sox have a handshake agreement that Lester will come back. As to Bradley, I noticed that despite his initial wide-open stance, his back foot is against the inside batter's box line. When he closes upon delivery of a pitch, both feet are against the line. That coupled with his apparent long, round swing appears to get him continuously jammed on any pitch middle in. 1) That "rumor" is apparently passing along the same ridiculous one we all read a month ago. It's literally the opposite of everything we've heard about him. 2) Papi tries to fight the shift to hit home runs? Didn't realize they'd shifted guys to certain spots in the stands like Rock 'n Jock or something. Also didn't realize that "fighting the shift" to drive runs in was a bad thing. Not going to lie, this guy sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about. I had the same impression. Points 2,3,5 are pretty much consensus opinions. 1 and 4 are just wrong.
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 21, 2014 10:00:07 GMT -5
1) That "rumor" is apparently passing along the same ridiculous one we all read a month ago. It's literally the opposite of everything we've heard about him. 2) Papi tries to fight the shift to hit home runs? Didn't realize they'd shifted guys to certain spots in the stands like Rock 'n Jock or something. Also didn't realize that "fighting the shift" to drive runs in was a bad thing. Not going to lie, this guy sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about. I had the same impression. Points 2,3,5 are pretty much consensus opinions. 1 and 4 are just wrong. Perhaps so but he represents that he is the chief minor league talent evaluator for another prominent team. And perhaps his admiration of/concern with hustle and defeating rather than challenging the shift are "old school". He has been a baseball "lifer". I am aware of the "consensus" points but put those in only for the fact that they came from someone 'outside'....not that they tread new ground. I was surprised by the Bradley comment though. The Lester one was offered as a bit more than rumor (altho that was my word)...as if he had some other basis which he was not going to disclose.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 21, 2014 10:15:45 GMT -5
...Well, I never a lot of the things you're bringing up. 1. Never said Cespedes was another Gomes. He's much faster, more athletic and has a better arm. But I repeat: He doesn't get on base much. That's a big flaw in a BB player and can't be glossed over with "He's not perfect." 2. That's two bats? You're counting Castillo as an above-average ML bat? I hope so, but we'll see. The book on him is that he - all together now - doesn't walk much. We seem to be accumulating a lot of those guys. 3. Is Kelly anything other than a fourth or fifth starter type? 4. I never said the RS are bottom feeders who are unable to bid on players. I think you're big-time underestimating how difficult and expensive it is to get two top-of-the-rotation SP. You want Lester back? Be prepared to pay a minimum of $132 million (6 years/$22 million). Too expensive? So, you want to try Hamels instead? Which two or three of the top prospects do you want to give up for the right to pay Hamels $22 million/year? Shields? Probably $70-$80 million and a draft pick for a 33 year old. 5. Yes, the market has changed completely and that makes my point. If they're going to burn a ton of resources in prospects and money filling the top two rotation spots, there's not going to be much left to fix the offense. They have about $60 million to spend if they're going to stay under the $189 million. That can go fast when you need two to SP. Also, I have not read anywhere that the RS had to take on Craig to get Kelly and it doesn't make sense. Kelly is not the kind of asset that teams take on salary to get. And if Craig is - as you acknowledge is possible - a sunk cost, then that wipes out your argument that they'd have four years of control over Joe Kelly. Craig is under contract for another three years at an AAV of more than $6 million and they'd be eating that if they DFA'd him, as you suggest they might. Nobody acquires a Joe Kelly thinking that they have four years of control at a cost of $6 million/year plus whatever Kelly makes. The implication, not just in your post, but in many on the board, is that the Sox are screwed when it comes to pitching. That's despite the fact that they have a large number of options they can shuffle through for 3-5 in the rotation and maybe better, and FA pitching is a resource this year. I'm counting Castillo as a player that a lot of teams wanted and that the Sox got, no more, no less. I'm surprised he's even on the field after two years away from the game. He looks like another asset to me, one they didn't have before this all came down. Of course the Sox had to take Craig to get Kelly. It's the only thing that does make sense. He was dead weight to them since they have a possible replacement in Taveras and a definite replacement in Adams at first. That's been written about over and over. The Sox have tradeable assets, another high draft choice, up and coming young hitters, and the ability to purchase a load of talent with that $60 million. Your arithmetic is way, way off. If they spend $30 million each for two pitchers the team should just fold up the tent and call it quits - any team really. That isn't a business plan, it's a potlatch. I'm not prepared to pay anything for Lester. I'm not in the FO and they haven't called me lately. What I am willing to do is to wait them out as they transition and see how they use they use the resources they're stockpiling.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 21, 2014 11:15:58 GMT -5
Oregon Norm, you did not answer my question but rather avoided it. Didn't need a lecture, egad Spanky. If you did not catch it, I said that it takes time to develop pitchers and the road is not a straight path. So why tell me the same. Don't be so defensive. It is a simple question. If you can't answer it, just say so and don't go rambling some generalities and defense of the team. Personally I am tired of these arguments. They go in circles. We have our opinions and I am content to wait it out. Again, out of the pitchers they have brought up, what is your appraisal? Seems you read into the question and became defensive. Did not mean to spook you. Check out those links, Godot. All those pitchers started slowly and they are now all high-priced starters (Kluber soon to be). That... is.... the..... way..... baseball...... works. Webster, Ranaudo, and Barnes will all be starters in my estimation, and that's just the immediate group already with the team. So will Owens, Johnson, and Rodriguez - all three of whom are now on the AAA team knocking on the door - though it may be somewhere else for all six of them and that's a large part of the problem. That sense of entitlement, the endless clamour for immediate gratification, reeks of the high-priced empty boxes at Yankee Stadium. It bleeds from the talking heads on the radio, and spews out from venom-laced blogs written by buzz-feeders who regularly contradict themselves and whose only goal appears to be to bring in eyeballs. That impatient whining is nothing but childish behavior in adult dress. I don't pay attention to any of it. But that's just me.
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Post by charliezink16 on Sept 21, 2014 12:04:34 GMT -5
Had to sign in to simply say, "lol" at Middlebrooks batting 5th.
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Post by tonyc on Sept 21, 2014 12:17:53 GMT -5
Right on Norm. The last paragraph is quite poetic (I write songs and quite appreciate that)!
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2014 12:33:14 GMT -5
The bittersweet reality of finally winning a World Series.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 21, 2014 12:37:27 GMT -5
Kudos Norm. Great assessment!
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Post by redsox4242 on Sept 21, 2014 12:48:26 GMT -5
I love Mookie!
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 21, 2014 12:53:50 GMT -5
That ball Mookie hit out today on an inside pitch wasn't even close to being a strike. The guy can clean out inside pitches with anyone. He basically takes away the inner half of the plate. He could have let the ball go and taken a ball. It was 90 mph so it's not like he cleaned out a change up.
The kid is clearly for real. He's forcing teams to pitch him outside. His pop comes from middle in pitches. He appears to even be loading up for them. How many small guys come up and load up for HR and pull it off like he has? He is just the total package.
I think we are looking at a potential .400 OBP guy in the future. That rare being mlb teams crave, with solid defense as well. He is a potential game changer. A more than 5 WAR player. He just keeps showing he belongs and will thrive.
EDIT: I'm not saying a career .400 OBP guy ok. I'm saying a guy who can potentially put up some .400 OBP years. I know it's rare as heck but I really think the guy can be better than Ellsbury in terms of overall value. I think he will put up better career numbers than Ellsbury. Better than Damon. Who knows how it all ends up but doesn't he look like a stud overall? He doesn't seem to get hurt much. He stays focused, has great contact...and all the other things we've seen. The numbers and the scouting would appear to say potential star.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2014 13:10:01 GMT -5
Not watching, why is Bogaerts out?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 21, 2014 13:20:36 GMT -5
Not watching, why is Bogaerts out? Probably just to give Weeks a chance to rotate in and play. He's been swinging a decent bat.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 21, 2014 13:21:13 GMT -5
Not watching, why is Bogaerts out? Neck stiffness.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 21, 2014 13:21:26 GMT -5
Not watching, why is Bogaerts out? Probably just to give Weeks a chance to rotate in and play. He's been swinging a decent bat. Strange that it was the 2nd inning though. May as well gotten the start.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 21, 2014 13:22:36 GMT -5
At his current pace, Betts would be right up there with Cespedes and Napoli for 2nd on the team in HR if he played a full year. If he hit lead off he may well beat them both according to the numbers.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 21, 2014 13:24:02 GMT -5
Mookie Betts cannot be traded.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 21, 2014 13:25:50 GMT -5
Probably just to give Weeks a chance to rotate in and play. He's been swinging a decent bat. Strange that it was the 2nd inning though. May as well gotten the start. Thanks. Didn't know that as I'd just turned to it myself. Been busy caulking and priming, getting ready for the season to turn. Coming to you from the great northwest
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,345
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Post by radiohix on Sept 21, 2014 13:34:55 GMT -5
Man, I'll miss Mookie when Ben will trade him (with other prospects?) for the right to pay Hamel 22 millions/year
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 21, 2014 13:38:47 GMT -5
Kelly may be underated IMO. He has decent fastball command. And secondary stuff. A lot of young pitchers take a while to become the final product. Remember how long Buchholz took to refine his fastball command? I know we are all thinking none of our young pitchers become #1 or 2 guys, and most not even # 3 but given the number of top starting pitching prospects we have at least some of these guys will become #3 and above. It takes time and this season is exactly what they need in order to develop. They have to be given some time in the majors in order to either cut it or not.
I look at several of these guys being similar to Brandon McCarthy and above. Hopefully some will have better careers than him but RDLR, Webster, Kelly, Barnes, Owens, Rodriguez, maybe even Johnson all have a good chance of having Brandon McCarthy level careers or better and some will probably be a lot better.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 21, 2014 14:05:19 GMT -5
Man, I'll miss Mookie when Ben will trade him (with other prospects?) for the right to pay Hamel 22 millions/year It's so weird to me that Red Sox fans seem to be collectively morning a Mookie Betts trade that hasn't happened yet. Everyone seems to be assuming that BC/the front office somehow doesn't know the things that are obvious to all of us. I know there's some legitimate questions about this front office, but they're not idiots. It's not Kevin Towers/Arizona stuff where they're constantly making moves that no one can understand. If you don't agree with some of the things they've done, I think you have to at least admit that they've acted rationally. And more specifically, it should be clear that the front office values the hell out of prospects. We've been saying for at least a year now that they practically HAD to trade away some of their pitching prospects... and then they went out and traded for MORE of them. They've given every chance to the young players they have in house even when those guys have been terrible. I don't see any logic for a Betts trade (ok, Stanton), and I don't see any precedent for it. So why is everyone assuming it's a forgone conclusion?
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 21, 2014 14:20:46 GMT -5
I give about a 3% chance for Mookie to be traded. It's not going to happen.
Man it would be great if Cechinni could step up and take over 3rd for us. Adding a solid LH bat to this lineup. It would solve a lot of problems. He looks like a fairly tough out. I don't think his bat is that far from being mlb ready. They should give him a ton of PT in the next few days.
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