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Post by dewey1972 on Sept 26, 2014 20:59:11 GMT -5
This came up in Mookie's thread and I thought it would be interesting to get the larger pulse of the site.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 26, 2014 21:14:09 GMT -5
This came up in Mookie's thread and I thought it would be interesting to get the larger pulse of the site. Mookie, and I think it's hard to argue otherwise. He's a better offensive player, a better defensive player, faster and more versatile. X may pass him offensively but even that's not a sure thing. I can't imagine he'll ever be better on D, faster or more versatile.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Sept 26, 2014 21:30:52 GMT -5
Mookie: six years control is better than five
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Post by jmei on Sept 26, 2014 21:32:23 GMT -5
Something to remember: a below-average defensive shortstop is still much, much more valuable than an above-average right fielder.
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Post by ethanbein on Sept 26, 2014 21:49:23 GMT -5
Something to remember: a below-average defensive shortstop is still much, much more valuable than an above-average right fielder. Sure, if you're talking -5 or +5 either way. But corner outfielders can certainly be valuable defensively (think Victorino 2013 or Alex Gordon 2014). Even if Mookie ends up in right, I wouldn't count on Xander being more valuable defensively than him.
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Post by glassox on Sept 26, 2014 22:19:06 GMT -5
Of course neither (fingers crossed) but because of the work he did in the World Series run last year i'll go Xander.
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Post by geostorm on Sept 26, 2014 22:20:27 GMT -5
With distinctly different offensive skill sets, and roles in the batting order, each important...in the post Ellsbury, soon-to-be post Ortiz era, I'd like to see "both", going forward, not "either, or"...
...want Mookie at the top of the order, and still feel Bogaerts will be a impact RH middle of the order bat, which of course plays up best at SS, but I still think would be above average at 3B or a corner OF position.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Sept 26, 2014 22:21:27 GMT -5
Mookie is clearly a middle infielder and he's a plus defender at 2nd while Xander isn't a plus defender and may never be one. And Mookie looks like more of a sure thing at this point in time. Higher floor goes to Mookie. Higher ceiling goes to Xander. Let's hope they both are studs.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,931
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 27, 2014 2:39:40 GMT -5
How about a third option, for both completely untradeable, practically speaking? That's my (non-)vote.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Sept 27, 2014 6:40:50 GMT -5
Either (but not both) is tradeable - but ONLY for Stanton, of those players even remotely on the trade block. Nobody else, at this time.
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pd
Rookie
Posts: 239
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Post by pd on Sept 27, 2014 7:26:01 GMT -5
Isn't the better question who has more value? No one is untradeable.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 27, 2014 8:45:45 GMT -5
I think the real question is mookie or Castillo as they seem to be the same player. Both are short, project similarly offensively, project similarly defensively and both have pop gun arms.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,824
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Post by wcp3 on Sept 27, 2014 8:57:10 GMT -5
It's incredible how short some people's memories are.
Xander's upside is still so incredibly high. It'd be a lot more painful to see him reach his elsewhere than to see Mookie do so.
The other aspect is that, if you were to trade one right now, you'd be selling high (or for equal value) for Mookie, whereas you'd be selling extremely low on Xander.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 27, 2014 9:13:51 GMT -5
Something to remember: a below-average defensive shortstop is still much, much more valuable than an above-average right fielder. I'm sure you could consider both of them capable of being below-average defensive shortstops. Just because Xander has that spot and Mookie doesn't have a position doesn't mean the value of the player changes. If we're talking defensive value, I'd give the edge to Mookie because he has a lot more versatility. I'm not sure where Xander could move to if he came off SS because I really hated him at 3rd. Mookie just seems a lot more athletic.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 27, 2014 9:15:18 GMT -5
I realize that Mookie probably lost his prospect status....but the Sox FO has produced a top 5(or 10) prospects in consecutive years. That is great work by the FO....and I have been critical of them.
I don't know why anyone would want to trade either of these players...at least through 2015. Even with the needs they have...they are so young with high ceilings.
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Post by jmei on Sept 27, 2014 9:21:55 GMT -5
Something to remember: a below-average defensive shortstop is still much, much more valuable than an above-average right fielder. I'm sure you could consider both of them capable of being below-average defensive shortstops. Just because Xander has that spot and Mookie doesn't have a position doesn't mean the value of the player changes. The value of the player absolutely changes to the team. You can't play two shortstops (or, more realistically, two second baseman), so if Betts has to be pushed to another position, especially one like the corner outfield which is very low on the defensive spectrum, it makes him potentially tradeable. If Betts would be a win more valuable at 2B than in RF (which is very likely the case), another team might value him highly enough that they'd give up enough in return to make it worth moving him.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 27, 2014 11:24:52 GMT -5
For all the talk of power being rare in today's game, contact is what's really missing. Isolated slugging is still fairly high by historical standards, but the league has set a new record for strikeout percentage every single year since 2008. Power hitters aren't extinct, contact hitters are. In other words, Mookie actually represents the rarest commodity in baseball: a guy who can actually put the ball in play.
Now, it's debatable how much this actually matters. Theoretically total offensive production regardless of the components that generate it, (although I am curious about how the value of those components has changed in a league with a >20% K rate). But it seems worth mentioning given how much I hear about power being the hardest thing to find, and the scarcity of power justifying the presence of a player like Cespedes who's not much of a player outside of his ability to hit home runs.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 27, 2014 12:10:51 GMT -5
Sorry Mookie, Xander was the better prospect for a reason. Both are awesome though.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 27, 2014 12:24:08 GMT -5
Sorry Mookie, Xander was the better prospect for a reason. Both are awesome though. Xander was basically a better prospect because he didn't lose rookie eligibility in 2013. (By the way, after everyone got excited about Bogaerts starting to hit again after coming off the DL, he's .263/.244/.342 in the last two weeks. 9/0 K/BB ratio.)
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Post by geostorm on Sept 27, 2014 12:40:03 GMT -5
I'm sure you could consider both of them capable of being below-average defensive shortstops. Just because Xander has that spot and Mookie doesn't have a position doesn't mean the value of the player changes. The value of the player absolutely changes to the team. You can't play two shortstops (or, more realistically, two second baseman), so if Betts has to be pushed to another position, especially one like the corner outfield which is very low on the defensive spectrum, it makes him potentially tradeable. If Betts would be a win more valuable at 2B than in RF (which is very likely the case), another team might value him highly enough that they'd give up enough in return to make it worth moving him. Yes!...I agree 100% on that last point about Betts bringing more consideration from a team who saw him as 2B...their value will be established by the teams interested in either a top of the order bat, and a RH middle of the order bat, both of which could play in the middle of the diamond, factoring in their respective inventory, and considering other outside options...so, yes, agree, that considering the 2B FA market, and that Betts was not just the top 2B in the minors, but likely seond only to Kris Bryant in terms of minor league performance... ...and w/ XB...go take a look at what Tulo was doing at that age...some team will highly value a top 5 prospect bringing a middle of the order presence, that will likely play anywhere on the field, but, to start, it play very well at SS... ...that being said, I want them both...I'd like to see the Sox actually find a young power bat to add to XB for next 4-5 years... ...I'm probably in minority on this, but I don't see the value in Stanton, if the price is 3-4 elite prospects...the next best power bat in the Sox system seems to be Devers, but even if he continues to follow/exceed XB's early trajectory, in minors, that likely puts him 4 yrs or so away, so THAT might be the more reasonable piece to include, if they're trying to put together the nextgen Manny/Ortiz, to build around... ...and w/ Mookie/Castillo in front of "next gen" for the next five years, w/ cost certainty...yeah, that's what I'm for, what I hope BC and baseball ops are for, if they truly are looking to put together the next great Red Sox team... ...so, if this thread is really a "which should we include in the impending offer for Stanton, in disguise" thread, I'm in the "neither" camp...concerned before the season, that for different reasons, getting the value of a full season hadn't happened w/ Stanton, not too mention he's too close to FA, IMO, to be in on him for the level of consideration that's been speculated on... ...and, being new here, although having greatly enjoyed reading for many years, I'd don't recall seeing an "either or" on Vazquez/Swihart, though I'm sure it's discussed...I'm likely in the minority there, as well, that considering how important the position is in running the game, and especially it's most critical asset - pitchers - I'm for keeping both...both project to be (if not already) better than average defensively, w/ Swihart's hit tool more developed, and considering his minor league contact rates, I think CV's will develop, though perhaps not as quick as some may like.
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 27, 2014 13:14:14 GMT -5
Comparing Tulo to Xander is insane. The only thing Xander has done better or can do better than Tulo is stay healthy. Tulo is a true shortstop. Xander is a square peg in a round hole. His whole value is with the bat. I hope Betts and Xander both hit and stay with the team. Sox need a leadoff hitter and a middle of the order bat. I just hope they get a SS and move Xander because I would rather have my crappy defense in the corners rather than the middle.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 27, 2014 13:33:57 GMT -5
Xander was basically a better prospect because he didn't lose rookie eligibility in 2013. That's so untrue and shortsighted I don't even feel like arguing. I'll concede for the sake of it that Mookie was remarkably underrated as a prospect throughout his minor league career. But this isn't football, Mookie having an awesome year and Xander having a down one don't erase years of scouting on both of them.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 27, 2014 13:50:37 GMT -5
Comparing Tulo to Xander is insane. The only thing Xander has done better or can do better than Tulo is stay healthy. Tulo is a true shortstop. Xander is a square peg in a round hole. His whole value is with the bat. I hope Betts and Xander both hit and stay with the team. Sox need a leadoff hitter and a middle of the order bat. I just hope they get a SS and move Xander because I would rather have my crappy defense in the corners rather than the middle. Bogaerts is untouchable, but needs to play 3rd base. We need to trade for tulo and keep cechini and/or holt as backups for when tulo gets hurt. When healthy tulo is the second best position player in baseball.
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Post by geostorm on Sept 27, 2014 13:51:34 GMT -5
Comparing Tulo to Xander is insane. The only thing Xander has done better or can do better than Tulo is stay healthy. Tulo is a true shortstop. Xander is a square peg in a round hole. His whole value is with the bat. I hope Betts and Xander both hit and stay with the team. Sox need a leadoff hitter and a middle of the order bat. I just hope they get a SS and move Xander because I would rather have my crappy defense in the corners rather than the middle. my point was more on what may have been unrealistic expectations for XB's age 21 season, than making a straight comparison, w/ a frinedly reminder that putting up that many ABs at age 21 is atypical...that being said, XB's age 21 season measure up well, statistically to Tulo's age 21 (and age 23) season...and I don't underrate the durability "tool", even if it is the "only thing"... ...he hasn't given back any money to the Rockies, so it certainly impacts what they've paid for in they're eval of return/value on his contracts.
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Post by okin15 on Sept 27, 2014 14:02:36 GMT -5
Xander is more untradeable because you wouldn't get fair value after his down year. I think Mookie may well have a better career in the end.
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