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Evaluating Ben Cherington 2014-15
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 9, 2014 21:45:42 GMT -5
Wait Ball is a busted pick? I missed that memo. Yeah, obviously. I mean what kind of top 10 pick take more than a year and a half to make it to the majors? Also, pass on Bastardo. The good news is that Philly is interested in Coyle. Pass on Bastardo? Why? You don't think he's legitimate?
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 9, 2014 21:56:28 GMT -5
Ben already gets a good grade for the Ramirez and Pablo signings. It remains to be seen how he fills out his roster during the Winter Meetings and after. I support his view not to easily surrender young prospects for a quick fix. Many of them are knocking at the door. Next season will sort them out, whom to keep; whom to move.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2014 22:17:41 GMT -5
I think Ben has been a decent to good GM.
Looking at the talking points:
1. Koji - good move but after Better than good - a huge reason why the Sox won in 2013. That was an A+ acquisition. 2. Melancon- disaster Good trade/Bad trade. Good trade getting him. Bad luck with tough start and Valentine burying him. Bad trade getting rid of him for Hanrahan and Holt. 3. Bailey- disaster Not so good, but not terrible. Bailey hurt as always. Reddick frustrating as always. 4. Mujica-disaster Disappointing but I wouldn't call it a disaster. Good 2nd half. Let's see how 2015 goes. 5. Allen Webster for Gonzalez and Crawford and Beckett is not a good trade. Is meh at best. The Dodgers love it, we gave Henry extra profit. Absolutely ridiculous. Great trade for the Sox. Freed up a bunch of money to reallocate elsewhere. They did and won a World Series. Why are you kvetching? 6. Victorino- one good season for $26 million is tolerable at best. 1 season for $39 million is a disaster Bet you weren't b*tching when Vic hit the grandslam against Detroit or cleared the bases in the WS Clincher. I guess using your logic Keith Foulke was a disaster, too. Perhaps Schilling was, too. Only one truly great year. 7. Napoli- great move Astute, but they wouldn't have gotten him if they hadn't disposed of AGon. So you hate losing Agon. Love the Napoli signing. Sounds even to me. Again, why are you complaining? 8. Lackey for Craig kelly- disaster monumental!!! Um...how do you know Kelly will amount to nothing? It's hardly a disaster. Lackey shouldn't be that irreplaceable. Let's see if they get anything for Craig first. I didn't like the deal, but I wouldn't call that a monumental disaster. 9. Lester Negotiation- disaster I won't disagree too much, but if Lester did re-sign and the Sox turned Cespedes into something useful then it would be all's well that ends well. Anyways, how much of the initial offer was higher up than Ben, anyways? 10. Lester trade for Cespedes- not a disaster yet, but looking like it. The jury is out. I would have preferred dealing Lester for kids. Let's see what Cespedes nets the Sox first before passing judgment. 11. Counting on Bradley middlebrooks etc -disaster What should he have done? Never take a chance on a kid? Perhaps Bogaerts and Betts shouldn't get much of a shot, either. Let's sign a bunch of 40 year olds instead. 12. Btw he gets no credit for the farm . He drafted none of those players you mentioned, nor was he the director of PD at the time. He was last in charge of the farm/draft in 2005. He was asst GM vp from 2005 I believe till he was promoted.. You don't think he's had any input whatsoever? Really? 13-aj perzinski -disaster Well, it was really either that or sign Salty for 3 years. I would have opted for the former but given how bad Salty was it was better to deal with AJP's stinkiness for a shorter period of time. 14-rusney Castillo- unknown I'm not high on Castillo, but we'll see. He could surprise me. Hopefully he's a young Victorino, or at least the 2013 version. 15-Ball- highest draft pick in my lifetime and it is near a Brien Taylor disaster What are you talking about? Taylor was the number 1 pick of the draft and a can't miss prospect who wasn't the brightest bulb and wrecked his career. Ball is a project. He did have a good 2nd half, so you can't give up on him yet. Kind of silly to write him off this soon. He's not Cody Kukuk or Jon Denney. 16. Sandoval . Unknown but the money doesn't match up with the production. $20 million for Sandoval is good but it's not good for Ellsbury? If a 750 ops gets you $20 mill, wouldn't it for a guy who is in shape and hits lead off and steals 60 bases, in your town,? Btw I'm not advocating Ellsbury, just there seems to be mixed messages in their actions. You do know that their contracts are drastically different? Right? $95 million vs $153 million? I'm not wild about the Panda either, but it's better than what they've had. 17. Ramirez. Who knows. $22 million if he is healthy and behaves. Big if. It's a chance I'd take. The man can rake. 18. Ortiz- resigning him was a great move Yes it was. Finally agreed on something. That is a spotty record, at best It's as good as most GMs.
Try scrutinizing the other 29 GMs as closely and let me know what you find out. If you do, you might find some lousy moves they've made.
For the record I think Theo was the best GM I've seen and he has Julio Lugo and some other signings like that on his record.
Ben Cherington made the moves that put the Sox in a position to win the World Series in 2013. That same philosophy helped contribute to the last place finish in 2014. I don't blame him for Bobby V. Don't think he had a choice there, and I don't blame him for 2012.
Let's see how he does this year before passing major blame and let's remember, he has a World Championship under his belt as GM of the Sox. Not too many other GMs of the Sox could ever say that. And he's only beginning his 4th year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 10, 2014 0:18:59 GMT -5
I used to say in Theo I trust, not there yet with Ben, but he's done a good job so far. The really good GM's make moves that fans won't agree with, but is in the teams best interests. I see the Lester trade for Cespedes as a prime example. I hated the deal, still do. Lets see what they get for Cesepedes
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 10, 2014 0:26:21 GMT -5
Yeah, obviously. I mean what kind of top 10 pick take more than a year and a half to make it to the majors? Also, pass on Bastardo. The good news is that Philly is interested in Coyle. Pass on Bastardo? Why? You don't think he's legitimate? Bastardo would be tough to watch. First of all, he's a PEDs guy, which is not a good thing. Secondly he walks roughly one batter per two innings. Yes, he strikes out a lot of guys but it's tough watching him put guys on base and if he's a late inning lefty option, that makes me kind of nervous. I guess for Coyle, it's alright, but I'd rather see Coyle as a chip in a deal for a starter. Too bad Miller signed with the Yankees but that seems to be a theme with the Yankees - grab a LH Red Sox reliever. I believe within a year of playing with the Sox, the Yankees have grabbed Miller, Matt Thornton, Mike Myers, and Mike Stanton. I guess they figured because they did so well with Sparky Lyle, that it's always a good idea to pluck a lefty reliever away from the Sox.
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Post by GyIantosca on Dec 10, 2014 7:34:43 GMT -5
I think Ben knows our system better than anyone including Theo. the problem is what Theo problem was dealing with Larry. There must be a certain point when he gets involved. I wish Ben had the complete power to handle everything.
We will see what happens I have faith in him. I hope he gives these young kids a chance to claim spots in rotation and bullpen.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Dec 10, 2014 8:05:04 GMT -5
Viewing the Dodgers trade as anything less than a mind-blowing, holy **** I still cannot believe they pulled that off, win for the Sox is just a non-starter.
We've all also elected to just gloss over the fact that last season (Andrew Miller for Eduardo Rodriguez) he also acquired our 5th best prospect and (by scouting reports) highest ceiling starting pitching prospect for two months of a reliever. That's just off the top of my head.
Up to this point, I think he's done a very good job. I will say the rest of this off-season is a big tipping point for him and the organization as a whole. If the season begins and we have Mookie Betts leading off and playing somewhere and Xander Bogaerts starting at short, then it's another good off-season. If either of those guys are playing for another organization and we don't have "Chris Sale" taking the ball game one, then you can call the off-season an unmitigated disaster.
(I don't want this turning into a trade thread. I mentioned "Chris Sale" to include any cost-controlled number 1 starter with multiple years of control because that is the only thing you trade either of those guys for based on our current roster).
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 10, 2014 9:44:03 GMT -5
Pass on Bastardo? Why? You don't think he's legitimate? Bastardo would be tough to watch. First of all, he's a PEDs guy, which is not a good thing. Secondly he walks roughly one batter per two innings. Yes, he strikes out a lot of guys but it's tough watching him put guys on base and if he's a late inning lefty option, that makes me kind of nervous. I guess for Coyle, it's alright, but I'd rather see Coyle as a chip in a deal for a starter. Too bad Miller signed with the Yankees but that seems to be a theme with the Yankees - grab a LH Red Sox reliever. I believe within a year of playing with the Sox, the Yankees have grabbed Miller, Matt Thornton, Mike Myers, and Mike Stanton. I guess they figured because they did so well with Sparky Lyle, that it's always a good idea to pluck a lefty reliever away from the Sox. So, you're saying Bastardo is illegitimate?
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Post by dmaineah on Dec 10, 2014 9:59:56 GMT -5
Yes! It's like blaming/crediting BC with the drafts ... really, how much of that is him, and how much is Sawdaye? It's fine to personalize "Red Sox Baseball Operations" in the person of Ben Cherington - in the end, the buck stops with him - but let's be clear that's what we're doing. "He" inherited a team with a very high payroll, high expectations, but a deeply flawed roster. The farm system had a long dry period, leaving the team completely bereft of young players entering into their prime at a time when the free agent market was producing fewer and fewer of those. He made a very bad decision in Bobby Valentine (yeah, yeah, maybe he wanted someone else, but remember, he's getting credit/blame for everything here), and that cost the team. He pulled off a great trade, packing a big asset in Gonzalez with a couple of albatrosses in Beckett and Crawford to clear some space, and picked up some promising pitchers in the mix. Then, just about every decision he made in the winter of 2012-2013 came up roses ... extraordinary, rarely-to-be-repeated. It was like pitching a perfect game. But even mediocre pitchers can pitch a perfect game once in a while ... He had one glorious blaze of success and some mixed results this past year, obviously. AJ Pierzinski looked like a bad idea from the get-go, and the Drew signing was a total panic move that was somewhere between a mistake and a disaster. His bullpen construction has actually been pretty good consistently (as much as people complain about individual moves), but he clearly underestimated the transition for JBJ and Bogaerts and put too much faith in WMB. But he also was crushed by a rash of injuries and underperformance by guys who should've been the core the team (Victorino, Pedroia, Napoli, Buchholz, etc) But that's almost all in the volatile side of the equation, free agent signings and other things that are inherently risky. On the fundamentals, Cherington has the Sox positioned really, really well. They have a ton of payroll flexibility because of his smart management . They have a young core of players who look like possible All-Starts in Bogaerts, Betts, and even possibly Swihart, if he keeps developing next year. They have a stocked farm system because he has developed a set of players very well and has added to it with some good draft picks and international signings, with young, high upside guys like Margot, Devers, Chavis, etc. To me, he looks like a guy who can implement a long-term plan really, really well. His ability to maximize the opportunities that plan creates is still TBD. He was dealing with a relatively poor hand the first couple of years, so it's tough to know.
in the person of Ben Cherington - in the end, the buck stops with him - I believe it stops with Larry He made a very bad decision in Bobby Valentine - I think this was Larrys decision He pulled off a great trade - I think this was Larry just about every decision he made in the winter of 2012-2013 came up roses - I think this was Larry Cherington has the Sox positioned really, really well - I think this is because of Larry payroll flexibility because of his smart management - I think this is because of Larry he looks like a guy who can implement a long-term plan - This is Cherington & still to be TBD His ability to maximize the opportunities that plan creates is still TBD - agree
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 10, 2014 10:18:02 GMT -5
I was really disappointed when Theo left for the Windy City, and worried. But I've come to trust Ben almost as much. I think we forget the situation he inherited from Epstein. Now, I will admit I may change my mind if we make some rather rash and poor decisions over the next several months, but it is quite possible that Lester's signing will only delay our gratification one year.
Who ever he signs or trades for, he should not mortgage 2016 and after. Why 2016? Lots of excellent starting pitchers that are free agents, Mookie and Xander will be very established, and Blake Swihart, Henry Owens, Brian Johnson, and Eduardo Rodriguez will be ready to contribute big time.
I personally applaud Ben for not over-paying for Jon Lester. Until last year, no one on this board EVER thought of him as an "ace". He is durable, he is left-handed, and he does normally give a quality start.....but an ace? No. He is not an ace, and by year 3 of that inflated deal the Cubbies signed him too....we will be thanking our lucky stars we didn't give him $150+. I like Jon Lester, but seriously he is not someone to be earning over $25 million a year, and Cherington to his credit made that call. I'd also like to mention that Jon was one of the worse fielding pitchers I've ever seen and he can't hold on a runner if his life depended on it (you'd have thought after all of these years he could throw over to 1st base without bouncing it).
I know about the "market", but many teams get into the playoffs without paying that kind of money to any player. I'd certainly like to see us go after Hamels, but to me he is worth less than what some of you think. Marrero, Cecchini, Owens, and Ranaudo, and if necessary Margot is as far as I would go. We, as a Nation, are so impatient. Yes 2015 would have been much easier for us to compete with Lester, but Ben decided their offer was good enough and Jon and his agent did not. Big deal. Sign a Santana and a Masterson. Trade for a Latos, and let one of our kids push for #5.
I trust Ben Cherington and believe that, no later than 2016, we will be on a roll!
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Post by brianthetaoist on Dec 10, 2014 10:21:28 GMT -5
Then just assign everything to Larry Lucchino and rename this thread "Evaluating Larry Lucchino" ... but you're missing my point. The Red Sox Baseball Ops decision-making is opaque to us. So we can't try to tease out what's Lucchino and what's Cherington like that. Personally, I think people make too big a deal about Lucchino, but what do I know? Ben Cherington is the GM of the Red Sox; that position has responsibility for the management of the Baseball Operations. If he has meddling bosses, that's on him to deal with. If he has great staff, that's for him to take the credit for. That's what it means to be in a position like that ... if he can't handle Lucchino to make the right decisions, that's his problem. It ain't my job to figure out who gets credit for what.
This is why the pass Brian Cashman gets always bugs me. Not my problem that he works for the Steinbrenners. It's on him to make that situation a success, and if he can't do it with the money he has to work with, tough. He should get a different job.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 10, 2014 13:16:10 GMT -5
Bastardo would be tough to watch. First of all, he's a PEDs guy, which is not a good thing. Secondly he walks roughly one batter per two innings. Yes, he strikes out a lot of guys but it's tough watching him put guys on base and if he's a late inning lefty option, that makes me kind of nervous. I guess for Coyle, it's alright, but I'd rather see Coyle as a chip in a deal for a starter. Too bad Miller signed with the Yankees but that seems to be a theme with the Yankees - grab a LH Red Sox reliever. I believe within a year of playing with the Sox, the Yankees have grabbed Miller, Matt Thornton, Mike Myers, and Mike Stanton. I guess they figured because they did so well with Sparky Lyle, that it's always a good idea to pluck a lefty reliever away from the Sox. So, you're saying Bastardo is illegitimate? DOHHH! (as I smack myself in the head)
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Post by marrcus on Dec 10, 2014 13:26:05 GMT -5
Evaluation of Ben is a little different. He does all the work but... Larry runs the Organization. At present, I'd give him a thumbs down. Depending on what transpires in the next month that feeling could change and obviously I'm hoping it does.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 10, 2014 13:32:02 GMT -5
My name is Veruca Salt and Larry Lucchino is my daddy.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 10, 2014 14:12:32 GMT -5
Half kidding, but even then it was a somewhat flawed roster. I'd give Ben a B+ thus far, definitely deserving a shot for the next 2-3 years.
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Post by thursty on Dec 10, 2014 14:51:20 GMT -5
Viewing the Dodgers trade as anything less than a mind-blowing, holy **** I still cannot believe they pulled that off, win for the Sox is just a non-starter. I don't understand how this meme continues to survive. Fact: the dumping of the Beckett, Crawford, (and to a lesser degree Gonzalez) contracts was initiated and arranged by John Henry (just Google it)
Ben was only brought in at the end to haggle over the prospects that the Red Sox would receive in return (essentially Webster and RDLR). Unless your point is restricted to those two, as of yet worthless P's, Cherington receives no credit - it's Henry that is responsible for saving the Red Sox' bacon
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Dec 10, 2014 14:56:50 GMT -5
Thursty,
The entire thread is operating on the assumption that Cherington receives either all credit or all blame. I wasn't necessarily arguing whom it should be "credited" to. The opening post refers to it as a "meh" trade, whomever made it (for purposes of this discussion, saying it was Cherington). Regardless of it was Cherington, Lucchino, Warren Buffett or Santa Claus that orchestrated the trade, it was a HUGE victory for the Red Sox. To call it anything less is just irrational.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 10, 2014 15:04:12 GMT -5
I bet the same people bitching about Cherington now for losing Lester would have been bitching in 4 years if we signed him. Some people are just never happy and can't understand that every decision is based on probability and risk, not based on who has the best crystal ball or is the luckiest.
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Post by dmaineah on Dec 11, 2014 15:34:32 GMT -5
I think today Larry and his team of Ben & others did quite well.
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Post by mvbigtuna on Dec 11, 2014 15:50:20 GMT -5
I think today Larry and his team of Ben & others did quite well. Why would you think that? A dreadful pitching staff if they perform as they did last year. No ace. I've been critical of BC and think his bad moves have far outnumbered his good ones. I'm not a fan of Miley. This staff has a very low ceiling, and high injury risk in a couple spots. The bullpen looks shaky . The lineup looks phenomenal. But $180 million and some great drafts before he was GM contributed to that
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Post by kman22 on Dec 11, 2014 16:07:55 GMT -5
I think today Larry and his team of Ben & others did quite well. Why would you think that? A dreadful pitching staff if they perform as they did last year. No ace. I've been critical of BC and think his bad moves have far outnumbered his good ones. I'm not a fan of Miley. This staff has a very low ceiling, and high injury risk in a couple spots. The bullpen looks shaky . The lineup looks phenomenal. But $180 million and some great drafts before he was GM contributed to that In 24 hours, they added 3 starting pitchers capable of eating innings.
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Post by texs31 on Dec 11, 2014 16:14:06 GMT -5
For clarity sake, what separates a dreadful staff from a good/great one? What are you looking for in an "Ace"? (BTW, I'd like another pitcher at the front of the rotation too).
Some are making these suggestions and I'm not sure what metrics we are using (maybe I just missed them).
Thanks
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 11, 2014 16:15:03 GMT -5
For clarity sake, what separates a dreadful staff from a good/great one? What are you looking for in an "Ace"? (BTW, I'd like another pitcher at the front of the rotation too). Some are making these suggestions and I'm not sure what metrics we are using (maybe I just missed them). Thanks We need an All-Star team or else we suck.
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Post by mvbigtuna on Dec 11, 2014 17:46:37 GMT -5
Why would you think that? A dreadful pitching staff if they perform as they did last year. No ace. I've been critical of BC and think his bad moves have far outnumbered his good ones. I'm not a fan of Miley. This staff has a very low ceiling, and high injury risk in a couple spots. The bullpen looks shaky . The lineup looks phenomenal. But $180 million and some great drafts before he was GM contributed to that In 24 hours, they added 3 starting pitchers capable of eating innings. I'm interested in good innings and winning playoff series. These acquisitions aren't likely to stir championship fever. Worst opening day staff since Wakefield was our opening day starter
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Post by kingofthetrill on Dec 11, 2014 18:09:59 GMT -5
Why would you think that? A dreadful pitching staff if they perform as they did last year. No ace. I've been critical of BC and think his bad moves have far outnumbered his good ones. I'm not a fan of Miley. This staff has a very low ceiling, and high injury risk in a couple spots. The bullpen looks shaky . The lineup looks phenomenal. But $180 million and some great drafts before he was GM contributed to that In 24 hours, they added 3 starting pitchers capable of eating innings. Without giving up any significant pieces or signing them to 6 year deals $20M/year deals. Even if I disagreed with the moves, which I may only feel slightly negatively towards the Miley deal, I have to love the fact that Ben Cherington is putting in some serious work. He might not out maneuver the Dodgers in terms of transactions, but he is seriously trying to improve the team. He may not always be right, I may not agree with every move, but he's earned my trust and respect and I think he's done a lot better than many of the people indicate. And he's quite possibly not even finished. I feel like we can attempt to evaluate each move in a vacuum but we don't know the big picture until it's completed and should reserve judgement on that until the offseason is finished. Cherington is not immune to criticism but I feel like people should at least criticize him correctly. A lot of this chirping is completely unwarranted.
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