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2015 HOF class; The line forms behind Pedro
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 27, 2014 18:29:40 GMT -5
He works for the Dodgers now.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 27, 2014 19:05:51 GMT -5
Clemens won't ever get in, nor should he.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 27, 2014 19:08:35 GMT -5
He is not gonna get 100% as he should but he'll be elected easily. Whomever leaves him off should feel ashamed. It's gonna be a national holiday in DR. Do you think the Sox retire his number?
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Post by libertine on Dec 27, 2014 19:48:07 GMT -5
Yes, his number should be retired. Every Sox player who has been inducted to the MLB HoF (and went in wearing a Red Sox cap), except for Boggs, has had their number retired by the Sox*. Should the Sox retire Boggs' #? Imho, yes also...
* Edit: In the modern era
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 27, 2014 20:31:23 GMT -5
He is not gonna get 100% as he should but he'll be elected easily. Whomever leaves him off should feel ashamed. It's gonna be a national holiday in DR. Do you think the Sox retire his number? If anybody deserves to get his number retired it's him so I guess yes, at some point they'll do it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 27, 2014 20:35:16 GMT -5
Why are people now voting for Clemens and Bonds, but not McGwire? Because a popular school of thought among some writers is that Clemens and Bonds were already HOF worthy BEFORE they started cheating as opposed to McGwire and a guy like Sosa who were clearly not HOFers waiting to happen until they started cheating - according to the timelines the writers think they know. I'm not personally backing the theory, just saying that's a school of thought out there among some of the writers. But I guess your question is Why NOW? Maybe to unclog the ballot so that they don't linger out there for years to come? Who knows? I would think with some of the younger writers coming into vote, they might be inclined to think I have no idea who cheated and when, but we know these two guys were the absolute best of the era, tainted as it may be. For me that is part of the reason, but not the main reason. When you look at Mark McGwire's numbers outside of homeruns and walks/obs they don't seem very hall of fame worthy. Mark only had 1626 hits, while having 1596 strikeouts. Compare that to David Ortiz who has 2159 hits and 1596 strikeouts. Now Mark did have 1317 walks, Ortiz has 1162. Mark does have 583 homeruns to Ortiz's 466. The question I have is, how many of those walks were due to pitchers being scared of him hitting a HR. How many homeruns were due to steroids? Did steroids increase his HR total by 50, 100, 250? We just don't have those answers which makes it very hard to know if he was a hall of fame player or a player a notch below that has some hall worthy numbers(HR-Walks) because of steroids. I compare to Ortiz because I think he is currently a fringe player for the hall of fame. I think he needs to get to 500 homeruns and close to if not more then 2500 hits to be a hall of famer without there being any doubts(not counting the I will never vote for a DH ever voters). I have no doubt in my mind that Clemens and Bonds would have hall of fame numbers/careers without steroids.
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on Dec 27, 2014 21:13:28 GMT -5
Do you think the Sox retire his number? If anybody deserves to get his number retired it's him so I guess yes, at some point they'll do it. He mocked our Sox so my guess is he will not have his number retired, nor would I want it to be. Christ, the team has already pawned his number off to too many JAG's. I think that is intentional.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 27, 2014 22:27:31 GMT -5
To all the people railing against the imperfections of the Hall voting system....get over yourselves. It is fraught with human error because...it is voted by humans. I personally like that there is no 100% induction. There hasn't been a perfect career and that would be the litmus to vote for every vote for a player.
In the end...the Baseball hall of Fame is the toughest to get into...as it should be. Stop the righteous indignation for once...please.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 27, 2014 23:38:15 GMT -5
If anybody deserves to get his number retired it's him so I guess yes, at some point they'll do it. He mocked our Sox so my guess is he will not have his number retired, nor would I want it to be. Christ, the team has already pawned his number off to too many JAG's. I think that is intentional. Pedro? I think you have confused who we are talking about.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 27, 2014 23:45:17 GMT -5
If anybody deserves to get his number retired it's him so I guess yes, at some point they'll do it. He mocked our Sox so my guess is he will not have his number retired, nor would I want it to be. Christ, the team has already pawned his number off to too many JAG's. I think that is intentional. How did Boggs "mock" the Sox? The Red Sox weren't interested in re-signing him. He was coming off the worst year of his career and the Sox thought Scott Cooper had a better future ahead of him, which certainly wasn't the case. Wade Boggs won 5 batting titles with the Sox, and they weren't cheapies either. The guy was hitting .360 constantly with 100 walks per year added in during a time offense wasn't that dominant. He also played a strong third base. The Red Sox should definitely retire Wade Boggs' number 26. For the record they pawned off #6 many times, including to Rick Cerone and Gary Gaetti and Damon Berryhill. The Sox pawned off #1 plenty of times including Chico Walker and boneheaded manager John McNamara. The Sox gave number 4 to Butch Hobson and Carney Lansford before it was retired. And the immortal Mike Brown wore #27 at some point during the 1980s. The point is just because Boggs' 26 was given out to the Lou Merlonis of the world, doesn't mean it shouldn't be retired. It's a major oversight on the Red Sox part and whether you like Boggs or not, his performance on the field screams out for it to be retired. And even though I don't like what Clemens became, his #21 should be retired as well.
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Post by libertine on Dec 28, 2014 0:57:44 GMT -5
Pedro? I think you have confused who we are talking about. I think my previous comment caused the confusion. I was talking about Pedro deserving to have his # retired and then commented on Boggs. I think Tx's reply was meant for me.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 28, 2014 0:59:09 GMT -5
Because a popular school of thought among some writers is that Clemens and Bonds were already HOF worthy BEFORE they started cheating as opposed to McGwire and a guy like Sosa who were clearly not HOFers waiting to happen until they started cheating - according to the timelines the writers think they know. I'm not personally backing the theory, just saying that's a school of thought out there among some of the writers. But I guess your question is Why NOW? Maybe to unclog the ballot so that they don't linger out there for years to come? Who knows? I would think with some of the younger writers coming into vote, they might be inclined to think I have no idea who cheated and when, but we know these two guys were the absolute best of the era, tainted as it may be. For me that is part of the reason, but not the main reason. When you look at Mark McGwire's numbers outside of homeruns and walks/obs they don't seem very hall of fame worthy. Mark only had 1626 hits, while having 1596 strikeouts. Compare that to David Ortiz who has 2159 hits and 1596 strikeouts. Now Mark did have 1317 walks, Ortiz has 1162. Mark does have 583 homeruns to Ortiz's 466. The question I have is, how many of those walks were due to pitchers being scared of him hitting a HR. How many homeruns were due to steroids? Did steroids increase his HR total by 50, 100, 250? We just don't have those answers which makes it very hard to know if he was a hall of fame player or a player a notch below that has some hall worthy numbers(HR-Walks) because of steroids. I compare to Ortiz because I think he is currently a fringe player for the hall of fame. I think he needs to get to 500 homeruns and close to if not more then 2500 hits to be a hall of famer without there being any doubts(not counting the I will never vote for a DH ever voters). I have no doubt in my mind that Clemens and Bonds would have hall of fame numbers/careers without steroids. Why on earth does that matter? A walk is a walk is a walk. The baserunner always counts the same.
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Post by libertine on Dec 28, 2014 1:09:32 GMT -5
He mocked our Sox so my guess is he will not have his number retired, nor would I want it to be. Christ, the team has already pawned his number off to too many JAG's. I think that is intentional. Based on the criteria the club uses to retire numbers Boggs qualifies to have his retired by the club. I know there was/were/is some hard feelings so I am not saying it will be retired any time in the near future. But he did go in with a Sox cap on, even though at the time he didn't want to, and I think in time any old wounds will heal sufficiently to allow him to be honored by the club.
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Post by libertine on Dec 28, 2014 1:11:45 GMT -5
Sorry about the (screwed up) double post. Formatting issues. I promise to work it out...
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on Dec 28, 2014 1:49:36 GMT -5
He mocked our Sox so my guess is he will not have his number retired, nor would I want it to be. Christ, the team has already pawned his number off to too many JAG's. I think that is intentional. How did Boggs "mock" the Sox? The Red Sox weren't interested in re-signing him. He was coming off the worst year of his career and the Sox thought Scott Cooper had a better future ahead of him, which certainly wasn't the case. Wade Boggs won 5 batting titles with the Sox, and they weren't cheapies either. The guy was hitting .360 constantly with 100 walks per year added in during a time offense wasn't that dominant. He also played a strong third base. The Red Sox should definitely retire Wade Boggs' number 26. For the record they pawned off #6 many times, including to Rick Cerone and Gary Gaetti and Damon Berryhill. The Sox pawned off #1 plenty of times including Chico Walker and boneheaded manager John McNamara. The Sox gave number 4 to Butch Hobson and Carney Lansford before it was retired. And the immortal Mike Brown wore #27 at some point during the 1980s. The point is just because Boggs' 26 was given out to the Lou Merlonis of the world, doesn't mean it shouldn't be retired. It's a major oversight on the Red Sox part and whether you like Boggs or not, his performance on the field screams out for it to be retired. And even though I don't like what Clemens became, his #21 should be retired as well. My impression is that Boggs reveled in our inability to win, which he used to rationalize his departure from the team. I don't feel the same way about Clemens, who in fact found a way to become better. Not a legit way, but a way just the same. Do not ever retire #26 in Boggs behalf.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2014 2:38:26 GMT -5
For me that is part of the reason, but not the main reason. When you look at Mark McGwire's numbers outside of homeruns and walks/obs they don't seem very hall of fame worthy. Mark only had 1626 hits, while having 1596 strikeouts. Compare that to David Ortiz who has 2159 hits and 1596 strikeouts. Now Mark did have 1317 walks, Ortiz has 1162. Mark does have 583 homeruns to Ortiz's 466. The question I have is, how many of those walks were due to pitchers being scared of him hitting a HR. How many homeruns were due to steroids? Did steroids increase his HR total by 50, 100, 250? We just don't have those answers which makes it very hard to know if he was a hall of fame player or a player a notch below that has some hall worthy numbers(HR-Walks) because of steroids. I compare to Ortiz because I think he is currently a fringe player for the hall of fame. I think he needs to get to 500 homeruns and close to if not more then 2500 hits to be a hall of famer without there being any doubts(not counting the I will never vote for a DH ever voters). I have no doubt in my mind that Clemens and Bonds would have hall of fame numbers/careers without steroids. Why on earth does that matter? A walk is a walk is a walk. The baserunner always counts the same. Your kidding right? Players that hit a lot of homeruns scare pitchers, so they pitch around them or just walk them on purpose. The year McGwire hit the most HR of his career 1998 when he hit 70 HR, was also the year he walked the most at 162 walks. So if steroids increase homeruns they most likely will increase walks also. Without Steroids does McGwire still scare pitchers to the point that they walk him 1317 times in his career? It matters because outside of homeruns, walks are McGwire second most hall of fame worthy stat. His career on base percentage of .394 is impressive, but it might just be a result of Steroids.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 28, 2014 7:36:22 GMT -5
Don't retire Boggs or Clemens. Its kind of a joke Clemens is even in the Red Sox Hall of Fame.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 28, 2014 7:56:12 GMT -5
How did Boggs "mock" the Sox? The Red Sox weren't interested in re-signing him. He was coming off the worst year of his career and the Sox thought Scott Cooper had a better future ahead of him, which certainly wasn't the case. Wade Boggs won 5 batting titles with the Sox, and they weren't cheapies either. The guy was hitting .360 constantly with 100 walks per year added in during a time offense wasn't that dominant. He also played a strong third base. The Red Sox should definitely retire Wade Boggs' number 26. For the record they pawned off #6 many times, including to Rick Cerone and Gary Gaetti and Damon Berryhill. The Sox pawned off #1 plenty of times including Chico Walker and boneheaded manager John McNamara. The Sox gave number 4 to Butch Hobson and Carney Lansford before it was retired. And the immortal Mike Brown wore #27 at some point during the 1980s. The point is just because Boggs' 26 was given out to the Lou Merlonis of the world, doesn't mean it shouldn't be retired. It's a major oversight on the Red Sox part and whether you like Boggs or not, his performance on the field screams out for it to be retired. And even though I don't like what Clemens became, his #21 should be retired as well. My impression is that Boggs reveled in our inability to win, which he used to rationalize his departure from the team. I don't feel the same way about Clemens, who in fact found a way to become better. Not a legit way, but a way just the same. Do not ever retire #26 in Boggs behalf. How did Boggs "revel" in the Sox inability to win? My two lasting non playing Red Sox memories of Boggs, beyond the obvious (Margot Adams) was his yelling out "Believe!" from top of his lungs after the Sox won a stunning division title in 1990 and his crying his eyes out in the dugout after the Sox had blown the 1986 World Series. This is not a guy who didn't give a crap about winning, which was a bad rap that he took. Basically the Red Sox gave Boggs a contract offer in 1992 that was based off his career low .259 BA, while the Yankees offered Boggs a contract for 1993 that was based off the feeling that he'd rebound a good deal from his miserable 1992 season. And the Yankees were right and given a choice, it was a no-brainer. It wasn't any different for Luis Tiant back in the late 1970s either. I don't begrudge Boggs from taking the much better offer and he was thrilled when the Yanks won in 1996 - and that's the lasting image of him from Sox fans - Boggs on the horse. And Boggs was ticked at the Sox, which is hardly uncommon. It took Johnny Damon nearly a decade to patch things up with Sox. Players have feelings. Wow, what a shocker, and feel spurned when somebody is telling them they can't do something they think they can do. It seems that Boggs has a good relationship with the Sox now and he was pretty happy for the Sox when they won in 2004 as there is a quote attributed to him afterwards. Boggs' major wrap against him was that he was a jerk, particularly to his wife, but I don't think that's a reason why a guy with a .338 lifetime BA as a Sox for over a decade shouldn't have his number retired. There are no hall of famers who wore numbers who don't have their number retired with their main teams. There's no reason Boggs should be the only guy who is dishonored.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 28, 2014 8:04:25 GMT -5
Don't retire Boggs or Clemens. Its kind of a joke Clemens is even in the Red Sox Hall of Fame. Why would it be a joke that Clemens is in the Sox HOF? I don't know if you're old enough to have watched Clemens entire career with the Sox, but there's no doubt that he's the best pitcher they've ever had. Pedro was the best "peak" pitcher, hands down, but Clemens was the best overall pitcher, kind of like comparing Sandy Koufax to Lefty Grove. Like Boggs, Clemens was no choir boy. Unlike Boggs, Clemens later on cheated the game big-time, but as far as I can tell, he was doing that stuff until 1997 or 1998, although it seems possible to me he started doing it in 1995 (which would coincide with Jose Canseco's arrival) after his injury or much more likely later in the 2nd half of 1996 when he started pitching again the way he had been pitching during him dominating days (during a period his second 20K game came in before hitting free agency). Either way, from 1986 - 1992, before Clemens broke down with an injury, before entering the second half and questionable phase of his career, Clemens won three Cy Young awards, and was absolutely robbed in 1990 because voters were blinded by Bob Welch's 27 wins and ignored Clemens' 1.93 ERA. That Roger Clemens most certainly belongs in a Red Sox HOF. There were no whispers of steroids or anything else. Most of the documented evidence shows that he cheating after he left the Sox although in my own opinion, it's possible he started before a little beforehand, when he was trying to get healthy from an injury he suffered in early 1995. Basically the Clemens who wore #21 in the Red Sox home whites was pretty much a HOFer (if not Cooperstown, certainly a HOF with less stringent requirements like the Sox HOF, but the guy who left Boston was most certainly a steroid cheat and deserving of scorn. The Red Sox pretty much got legit dominating Rocket, while everybody else got steroid cheat. You can argue he doesn't deserve his number retired although there's nobody else that should ever be #21 again - that's clearly his number, but not putting him in the Sox HOF would be like the Reds ignoring Pete Rose or even the ChiSox ignoring Joe Jackson as if they never existed or never did anything to help the home team win. I just think team HOFs should have and do have much less stringent standards. I mean Don Zimmer is in the Sox HOF and he did more to sabotage the Sox than help them win.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 28, 2014 8:51:02 GMT -5
Going back to the previous page, I actually don't have McGwire as a Hall of Famer on merit. He had a huge peak, but produced little value beyond those seasons. Among first baseman from his era, I have him behind Bagwell, Thomas, Thome, Palmeiro, and Helton, and basically even with McGriff and Giambi. You could make a strong case that those last two should be Hall of Famers, too, but I'm just not totally comfortable with eight first baseman who peaked between 1996 and 2000 in the Hall.
I know McGwire's rate stats are huge, though. He's eighth all time in slugging, after all. Still, Albert Belle is 13th and had a similar career, while Juan Gonzalez is 16th which is totally nuts.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 28, 2014 11:47:56 GMT -5
Clemens was a steroid guy who left and went to the Yankees. The end.
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on Dec 28, 2014 12:00:05 GMT -5
My impression is that Boggs reveled in our inability to win, which he used to rationalize his departure from the team. I don't feel the same way about Clemens, who in fact found a way to become better. Not a legit way, but a way just the same. Do not ever retire #26 in Boggs behalf. How did Boggs "revel" in the Sox inability to win? My two lasting non playing Red Sox memories of Boggs, beyond the obvious (Margot Adams) was his yelling out "Believe!" from top of his lungs after the Sox won a stunning division title in 1990 and his crying his eyes out in the dugout after the Sox had blown the 1986 World Series. This is not a guy who didn't give a crap about winning, which was a bad rap that he took. Basically the Red Sox gave Boggs a contract offer in 1992 that was based off his career low .259 BA, while the Yankees offered Boggs a contract for 1993 that was based off the feeling that he'd rebound a good deal from his miserable 1992 season. And the Yankees were right and given a choice, it was a no-brainer. It wasn't any different for Luis Tiant back in the late 1970s either. I don't begrudge Boggs from taking the much better offer and he was thrilled when the Yanks won in 1996 - and that's the lasting image of him from Sox fans - Boggs on the horse. And Boggs was ticked at the Sox, which is hardly uncommon. It took Johnny Damon nearly a decade to patch things up with Sox. Players have feelings. Wow, what a shocker, and feel spurned when somebody is telling them they can't do something they think they can do. It seems that Boggs has a good relationship with the Sox now and he was pretty happy for the Sox when they won in 2004 as there is a quote attributed to him afterwards. Boggs' major wrap against him was that he was a jerk, particularly to his wife, but I don't think that's a reason why a guy with a .338 lifetime BA as a Sox for over a decade shouldn't have his number retired. There are no hall of famers who wore numbers who don't have their number retired with their main teams. There's no reason Boggs should be the only guy who is dishonored. Mocked, reveled.... admittedly poor words to describe the fact that I just don't like the guy. I didn't like his narcissistic personality; I didn't like that damn horse ride; I don't like how even now he thinks he's entitled to have his number retired, although he's never come back to the Sox since the day he left for NY. He doesn't come across as caring one iota about the team, but wants stuff from it anyway. There are requirements for having one's number retired, one is that the player, if not bleed Red Sox red, at least care about its legacy. Fisk entered the hall with his B and, in fact, ended his career with the organization. Pedro is on his 2nd year of resolving that pesky 10 year rule. Boggs remains invisible, still disinterested in giving back something, anything. Instead, he attends Yankee old timer games and associates more with with Tampa Bay, fitting since they did retire his #12. Ha!
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Post by Sammy on Dec 28, 2014 13:40:18 GMT -5
It looks like this guy refuses to vote for anyone tainted by even a rumor of steroids, while giving Delgado and McGriff extra credit for playing clean. That makes one wonder why he didn't also vote for Raines and Trammell but maybe his only criteria for hitters are only 1) no rumor of steroids, and 2) lots of home runs.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 28, 2014 14:23:20 GMT -5
How did Boggs "revel" in the Sox inability to win? My two lasting non playing Red Sox memories of Boggs, beyond the obvious (Margot Adams) was his yelling out "Believe!" from top of his lungs after the Sox won a stunning division title in 1990 and his crying his eyes out in the dugout after the Sox had blown the 1986 World Series. This is not a guy who didn't give a crap about winning, which was a bad rap that he took. Basically the Red Sox gave Boggs a contract offer in 1992 that was based off his career low .259 BA, while the Yankees offered Boggs a contract for 1993 that was based off the feeling that he'd rebound a good deal from his miserable 1992 season. And the Yankees were right and given a choice, it was a no-brainer. It wasn't any different for Luis Tiant back in the late 1970s either. I don't begrudge Boggs from taking the much better offer and he was thrilled when the Yanks won in 1996 - and that's the lasting image of him from Sox fans - Boggs on the horse. And Boggs was ticked at the Sox, which is hardly uncommon. It took Johnny Damon nearly a decade to patch things up with Sox. Players have feelings. Wow, what a shocker, and feel spurned when somebody is telling them they can't do something they think they can do. It seems that Boggs has a good relationship with the Sox now and he was pretty happy for the Sox when they won in 2004 as there is a quote attributed to him afterwards. Boggs' major wrap against him was that he was a jerk, particularly to his wife, but I don't think that's a reason why a guy with a .338 lifetime BA as a Sox for over a decade shouldn't have his number retired. There are no hall of famers who wore numbers who don't have their number retired with their main teams. There's no reason Boggs should be the only guy who is dishonored. Mocked, reveled.... admittedly poor words to describe the fact that I just don't like the guy. I didn't like his narcissistic personality; I didn't like that damn horse ride; I don't like how even now he thinks he's entitled to have his number retired, although he's never come back to the Sox since the day he left for NY. He doesn't come across as caring one iota about the team, but wants stuff from it anyway. There are requirements for having one's number retired, one is that the player, if not bleed Red Sox red, at least care about its legacy. Fisk entered the hall with his B and, in fact, ended his career with the organization. Pedro is on his 2nd year of resolving that pesky 10 year rule. Boggs remains invisible, still disinterested in giving back something, anything. Instead, he attends Yankee old timer games and associates more with with Tampa Bay, fitting since they did retire his #12. Ha! Those retirement "rules" are silly and arbitrary. I guess they should unretire Bobby Doerr's number 1 because he ended his baseball days as a Toronto Blue Jays hitting coach. And we know they messed with the rules to give Carlton Fisk an imaginary job so his 27 could be retired. Boggs' resentment was with John Harrington, not the current ownership. If I recall correctly from reading an interview with Boggs, he had talked with Jean Yawkey and had thought he was going to be extended, but then she passed away, he had his worst year, and the Sox offer lacked. He doesn't have a beef with current Red Sox ownership. As far as what he is supposed to give back, I'm not sure what he owes the Sox. I would have thought a .338 BA and an OBP about 100 points higher, with gold glove excellence, should be sufficient. He can't call the Sox up and ask for his number to be retired. It's supposed to work the other way around. So again, I'm not sure what he's supposed to do here.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 28, 2014 14:27:56 GMT -5
Clemens was a steroid guy who left and went to the Yankees. The end. Honestly. Did you ever watch Clemens pitch with the Sox? Are a you a Sox fan born in 1989 who never saw it? It would matter if you did. He wasn't on the roids during the greatest part of his Sox career, if he was at all. And so what if he went to the Yanks? Would you think the more of him if he went to the Tigers instead or Toronto, which is where he really left Boston for? There's no way you could watch Clemens pitch for a decade with the Sox and not think he's one of the greatest Sox pitchers of all time, and he did it cleanly with the Sox during those peak years of 1986 - 1992. If the HOF voters had a lick of sense, Luis Tiant would have been voted in, and perhaps the Sox would have retired his #23, as a whole generation of Sox fans were electrified every 4th day he pitched - it was an event sort of the way Pedro was, except for his peak, he wasn't as good as Pedro, although nobody was that good. But Tiant went to the - shudder - the Yankees for the same reason as Boggs did - the Sox thought he was done and gave him a boolcheat (as Tiant would say) offer and the Yankees didn't. Would that preclude him from ever getting his number retired if he were up for consideration?
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