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5/28-5/31 Red Sox @ Rangers Series Thread
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Post by grandsalami on May 30, 2015 22:21:31 GMT -5
And what good did all those deadline trades get him? a WS? Have they won the WS since he became GM? Be fair.. his budget. And I think picking on him for his trades last year is disingenuous. Donaldson is a dick and both his pitching pickups were studs (at the time). It should have worked. But it didn't. And that's the fault of the GM. How many years has he been GM? And how many WS does he have? How many playoff series wins does his team have?
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Post by Guidas on May 30, 2015 22:24:28 GMT -5
Given Donaldson's mouth to date, I doubt he could handle a year here, not that that's your point. Given how Beane prioritized pitching last year for his playoff run, the man has his head on straight, and I'd do flips if we could get him. To be clear: Ben thought he could challenge with 5 known shmucks. His head is wrong. And what good did all those deadline trades get him? a WS? Have they won the WS since he became GM? They have not. But has any team with an ave $55M budget won it all in the same period? Beane has to dance to a much lower bottom line than most of his peers. My belief is, if he had two or three times the resources, he'd probably be more like Mozeliak, who also recently signed an extension. To me, he'd be just as good as Beane, if not better.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 30, 2015 22:25:17 GMT -5
And what good did all those deadline trades get him? a WS? Have they won the WS since he became GM? Be fair.. his budget. And I think picking on him for his trades last year is disingenuous. Donaldson is a dick and both his pitching pickups were studs (at the time). It should have worked.I mean if we're talking about things that SHOULD have worked, the 2015 Red Sox come to mind...
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 30, 2015 22:29:49 GMT -5
where's the Ben-Defenders? Everyone wants an ace. If Ben does it the fans' way, we'd end up with the next CC Sabathia. 24 hours after E-Rod day, Ben is taking on the chin. Rough crowd. The only thing bad about the Yankees deal with Sabathia is when he exercised his opt out they didn't let him walk, they scrambled in the 15 day exclusive period to extend him. Good point. I had forgotten about that. The Yanks now wish they would have thanked him for his past contributions and let him walk away.
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TX
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Post by TX on May 30, 2015 22:30:59 GMT -5
Be fair.. his budget. And I think picking on him for his trades last year is disingenuous. Donaldson is a dick and both his pitching pickups were studs (at the time). It should have worked. But it didn't. And that's the fault of the GM. How many years has he been GM? And how many WS does he have? How many playoff series wins does his team have? Yeah, maybe. But I have a sense that Beane would do a hell of a lot better than Ben has with an additional 9 figures at his disposal.
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TX
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Post by TX on May 30, 2015 22:32:47 GMT -5
Be fair.. his budget. And I think picking on him for his trades last year is disingenuous. Donaldson is a dick and both his pitching pickups were studs (at the time). It should have worked.I mean if we're talking about things that SHOULD have worked, the 2015 Red Sox come to mind... THIS PITCHING STAFF WAS NEVER GOING TO WORK. Regardless of the rationals you made this past winter. It was never going to work
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Post by grandsalami on May 30, 2015 22:41:38 GMT -5
I mean if we're talking about things that SHOULD have worked, the 2015 Red Sox come to mind... THIS PITCHING STAFF WAS NEVER GOING TO WORK. Regardless of the rationals you made this past winter. It was never going to workMost thought it would be average. Not the worst in the MLB
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TX
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Post by TX on May 30, 2015 22:43:21 GMT -5
Rationalized that it would be average, more like. Come on, a staff led by Bucky or Porcello would be a disaster under almost every scenario.
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Post by johnmark on May 30, 2015 22:43:57 GMT -5
I mean if we're talking about things that SHOULD have worked, the 2015 Red Sox come to mind... THIS PITCHING STAFF WAS NEVER GOING TO WORK. Regardless of the rationals you made this past winter. It was never going to workExactly. The only people who bought into the 5 Aces idea was the 5 starting pitchers who wished they were aces. This was bad from the get-go and relied on the offense scoring tons of runs. well that hasn't happened and here we are...7th worst team in MLB. Poor decision by the GM, coupled with poor managerial skills, and a poor staff...poor team is the result.
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TX
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Post by TX on May 30, 2015 22:49:35 GMT -5
I won't blame the offense because it's gotta be tough knowing that if you score 2, they score 3, and if you score 4, they score 5, and so on. The pressure on this offense is dooming it to fail, which is a shame. It should, coulda, been the best in the game. But it won't be thanks to Ben. Leave Ben. NOW.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 30, 2015 23:01:52 GMT -5
there is an org problem with the Sox ... this is the latest creation of the same people that gave us the 2011 collapse.
There is a certain blindness that exists in this type of upper management when they didn't come up from the ranks and those Henry people aren't baseball people. There's no aggressiveness on handling an obvious crisis. The fact that Ortiz was 3rd on the team in plate appearances in May, twice as many as Holt ... the lineups ... the lack of hitters in AAA ... the 3rd base coach ... the fact they don't even have a Brandon Snyder to call up for 50 ABs ... the fact that they don't even have bench players ... the continued mismanagement of JBJ.
It alls goes beyond Ben and Farrell, but the cluelessness enables those two. Torey Lovullo, is he being ignored or are these his lineups?
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Post by dcsoxfan on May 30, 2015 23:09:43 GMT -5
I am underwhelmed by John Farrell and I have mixed feelings regarding Ben Cherington. However, I think the real reasons for the Red Sox struggles this year are outside of their control:
1. A stunning number of Red Sox players are having off-years.
2. Theo Epstein left behind an unholy mess when he left for Chicago. The only players from the 2007 through 2010 player development cycles of any significance were Xander Bogaerts and Christian Vasquez. And while there was a solid core of talent from the 2002 through 2006 time frame (Pedroia, Lester, Buccholz, Reddick, Papelbon, Ellsbury and Ortiz), most of those players were aging or approaching free agency. Even if we had retained Lester, Lackey and Ellsbury, it's not clear that would improve this team enough to do anything more than earn an unprotected draft pick, and I think it would have saddled them with contracts that would have severely limited what they could do at some future point. When Epstein left in 2011, this team was headed for the cliff.
It takes a really long time to develop MLB talent. A decade ago, teams could rebuild through free agency; however, today, with teams extending their control over players by keeping them in the Minors longer and more dramatic (post-PED?) aging curves, it is much harder to build a team that way and almost impossible to do so without severely impacting the future.
It is clear that 2015 -- like 2014 and 2013 before that -- was intended to be a competitive bridge year. The objective wasn't to develop a championship caliber team, because that couldn't be done without sacrificing a huge chunk of the team's future (in part because the return on prospects is WAY lower than many posters on this site seem to imagine). So instead they took the approach of adding pieces that would enable them to compete for one of the two wild cards this year and would complement what they are hoping is an emerging core (Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, Vasquez, Castillo, Bradley).
Realistically, this team isn't far from having a championship level pitching staff. It really only requires one top of the rotation starter and for the Pawtucket staff to produce one effective middle of the rotation starter and some bullpen arms. Add a Cueto, Greinke or a Price to Porcello, Buccholz, Rodriguez/Johnson/Owens, Miley and Kelly/Wright and that's more than enough to sustain a championship. Given the Red Sox resources and the pitching talent currently assembled in Pawtucket, this is a reasonable expectation.
The offense may be more problematic. While it is easy to dream of an outfield of Betts, Castillo and Bradley/Brentz and an infield of Sandoval, Bogaerts and Pedroia, a catching tandem of Swihart and Vasquez and Hanley Ramirez as DH, the continued offensive struggles of all of the Red Sox young players is beginning to be worrisome (at least to me). I recognize that Bogaerts, Swihart and Betts are all very young, and in some ways the fact that all three are very close to average Major League starters (WAR = 2.0 for a full season) is very impressive. On the other hand the persistence of such a large gap between AAA and Major League offensive performance for so many Red Sox prospects -- and it seems far larger than for other teams -- is worrisome.
In summary, I actually agree with the approach the Red Sox Front Office has taken over the last three years, and I think we do have to be patient a bit longer because I can't see any other approach that leads to anything but long-term mediocrity. On the other hand, I see alarming signs that it's not working.
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TX
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Post by TX on May 30, 2015 23:11:42 GMT -5
there is an org problem with the Sox ... this is the latest creation of the same people that gave us the 2011 collapse. There is a certain blindness that exists in this type of upper management when they didn't come up from the ranks and those Henry people aren't baseball people. There's no aggressiveness on handling an obvious crisis. The fact that Ortiz was 3rd on the team in plate appearances in May, twice as many as Holt ... the lineups ... the lack of hitters in AAA ... the 3rd base coach ... the fact they don't even have a Brandon Snyder to call up for 50 ABs ... the fact that they don't even have bench players ... the continued mismanagement of JBJ. It alls goes beyond Ben and Farrell, but the cluelessness enables those two. Torey Lovullo, is he being ignored or are these his lineups? I agree with this. Winning ALWAYS starts at the top, and as much respect I have in Henry, his power seems usurped by the partnership. In other words, if it were Henry alone, I'd guess that Theo would still be here and we'd have a duplicate of the Kraft/Belichick dynasty at the Fens. Instead we have a reactionary quagmire that presently exists.
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TX
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Post by TX on May 30, 2015 23:19:35 GMT -5
I am underwhelmed by John Farrell and I have mixed feelings regarding Ben Cherington. However, I think the real reasons for the Red Sox struggles this year are outside of their control: 1. A stunning number of Red Sox players are having off-years. 2. Theo Epstein left behind an unholy mess when he left for Chicago.For one, I doubt he left. Booted for causation by Lucchino's marketing arm, more likely. Two, our farm is still stuffed with his acquisitions so if he left an 'unholy mess' we're in deep doodoo for the next decade+.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 30, 2015 23:21:55 GMT -5
I won't blame the offense because it's gotta be tough knowing that if you score 2, they score 3, and if you score 4, they score 5, and so on. The pressure on this offense is dooming it to fail, which is a shame. It should, coulda, been the best in the game. But it won't be thanks to Ben. Leave Ben. NOW. Look, we get it. You hate Cherington. Fine by me. You do not need to post it over and over again. You've made your point. You've made 10 of the last 30 posts in this thread, and they're all making more or less the same point regarding Cherington and the ownership/FO. We get your point. You do not need to respond to every single poster. You've made your point. Please move on. Thank you. And honestly, this post could be addressed to a number of folks. If you're posting multiple times in a thread and notice that you're accounting for like a quarter of the conversation on your own, it might be time to slow it down a bit.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 30, 2015 23:23:27 GMT -5
I won't blame the offense because it's gotta be tough knowing that if you score 2, they score 3, and if you score 4, they score 5, and so on. The pressure on this offense is dooming it to fail, which is a shame. It should, coulda, been the best in the game. But it won't be thanks to Ben. Leave Ben. NOW. I will. You're correct that the pitching staff continually puts them in a hole and it's tough to always have to climb out and play from behind. That said, I've seen them drop some 3-1 games, 2-1 games, etc. There's way too many times this offense plays dead. And the number of double plays this team hits into or runners they strand is ridiculous. The offense is about half the problem. If the offense was any good the Sox would be around .500 and battling for first place, not that .500 is anything to brag about, but it's certainly better than where they are now, six games under and fading.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on May 30, 2015 23:24:55 GMT -5
Ben has made some bad trades and signings but he has also had some gems. There was the Nick Punto trade and all the bargain signings prior to 2013. He got us E rod and the jury is still out on some of the signings. Farrell on the other hand has been absolutely horrific since the start of 2014. Even before then, he made some pretty questionable moves in 2013 and luckily we won anyway.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 30, 2015 23:27:58 GMT -5
but what did John Henry do during the 2011 downfall? Look at spreadsheets? A high school baseball coach could have seen that coming on Aug 1 2011, but Sox management was preparing their marketing plan for the playoffs.
Right now they need a platoon guy for Ortiz .. who plays LF so hanley is the DH. Peguero doesn't fit the description. Brentz is a flop ... it's gonna be Castillo soon, so they need a RF. I think Holt should play every day. Where's our bench guys?
Victorino Craig Nava JBJ Castillo Brentz
who'da thunk it? They are 0 for 6 on the RF depth chart and Jemille Weeks isn't even healthy enough to fill in twice a week, by playing LF while Hanley DHs
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 30, 2015 23:27:59 GMT -5
I am underwhelmed by John Farrell and I have mixed feelings regarding Ben Cherington. However, I think the real reasons for the Red Sox struggles this year are outside of their control: 1. A stunning number of Red Sox players are having off-years. 2. Theo Epstein left behind an unholy mess when he left for Chicago. The only players from the 2007 through 2010 player development cycles of any significance were Xander Bogaerts and Christian Vasquez. And while there was a solid core of talent from the 2002 through 2006 time frame (Pedroia, Lester, Buccholz, Reddick, Papelbon, Ellsbury and Ortiz), most of those players were aging or approaching free agency. Even if we had retained Lester, Lackey and Ellsbury, it's not clear that would improve this team enough to do anything more than earn an unprotected draft pick, and I think it would have saddled them with contracts that would have severely limited what they could do at some future point. When Epstein left in 2011, this team was headed for the cliff. It takes a really long time to develop MLB talent. A decade ago, teams could rebuild through free agency; however, today, with teams extending their control over players by keeping them in the Minors longer and more dramatic (post-PED?) aging curves, it is much harder to build a team that way and almost impossible to do so without severely impacting the future. It is clear that 2015 -- like 2014 and 2013 before that -- was intended to be a competitive bridge year. The objective wasn't to develop a championship caliber team, because that couldn't be done without sacrificing a huge chunk of the team's future (in part because the return on prospects is WAY lower than many posters on this site seem to imagine). So instead they took the approach of adding pieces that would enable them to compete for one of the two wild cards this year and would complement what they are hoping is an emerging core (Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, Vasquez, Castillo, Bradley). Realistically, this team isn't far from having a championship level pitching staff. It really only requires one top of the rotation starter and for the Pawtucket staff to produce one effective middle of the rotation starter and some bullpen arms. Add a Cueto, Greinke or a Price to Porcello, Buccholz, Rodriguez/Johnson/Owens, Miley and Kelly/Wright and that's more than enough to sustain a championship. Given the Red Sox resources and the pitching talent currently assembled in Pawtucket, this is a reasonable expectation. The offense may be more problematic. While it is easy to dream of an outfield of Betts, Castillo and Bradley/Brentz and an infield of Sandoval, Bogaerts and Pedroia, a catching tandem of Swihart and Vasquez and Hanley Ramirez as DH, t he continued offensive struggles of all of the Red Sox young players is beginning to be worrisome (at least to me). I recognize that Bogaerts, Swihart and Betts are all very young, and in some ways the fact that all three are very close to average Major League starters (WAR = 2.0 for a full season) is very impressive. On the other hand the persistence of such a large gap between AAA and Major League offensive performance for so many Red Sox prospects -- and it seems far larger than for other teams -- is worrisome. In summary, I actually agree with the approach the Red Sox Front Office has taken over the last three years, and I think we do have to be patient a bit longer because I can't see any other approach that leads to anything but long-term mediocrity. On the other hand, I see alarming signs that it's not working. Two things. Do you think they will add one of those pitchers you mentioned? And re: Bogaerts, I can't shake this feeling that he WILL be what we thought he would be, except it will be when he's 25 or 26 and nearing free agency. That's the danger of bringing up kids so young. Sometimes they do get to their ceilings, but it can take time, and they reach free agency younger, so you can lose out on their best seasons, so in essence you get the struggles and the fruition of their talent and the next team that signs them gets the rest of the prime and eventually a bit of their decline. It will also be interesting to see what Betts and eventually Moncada become, because at 26 or 27, those guys will likely hit free agency as opposed to somebody like Swihart who is older and won't reach it until he's nearing 30, making it most likely the Sox capture the best part of his career.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 30, 2015 23:57:09 GMT -5
Great defense, ladies and gentlemen we have ourselves an ace. Rodriguez has a nasty slider!! Gotta love the FB velo. A full run better than the games next lefty. And barely 1 BB/9 in AAA. Kid's a star in the making if the slider improves. His control is already good and his command is surprisingly solid. And the swings against him are just awful. Seems to thrive under the lights, too. He's going to be a must-see in Fenway. Is it too much to hope for the fun of sitting in the bleachers during Pedro's heyday? OK, I jest...but is it? www.fangraphs.com/blogs/instagraphs/a-few-notes-on-eduardo-rodriguezs-velocity/Just getting around to reading through this. Should be an eye-opener for all of us. There are very, very, few left-handed pitchers who can dial it up to 96+ on a consistent basis. Add to that the movement that Eric has highlighted, and the two average to plus secondary pitches, and the analysis from this year's BP annual on Rodriguez is pitch perfect: ...and Miller doesn't even live there any more.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 31, 2015 0:17:46 GMT -5
I mean if we're talking about things that SHOULD have worked, the 2015 Red Sox come to mind... THIS PITCHING STAFF WAS NEVER GOING TO WORK. Regardless of the rationals you made this past winter. It was never going to workI mean lots of smart people who know stuff about baseball thought it would be fine but you did write that in all caps so I guess you're right. (And ever granting that the pitching staff was going to suck, absolutely no one thought the offense was going to be this bad.)
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Post by dcsoxfan on May 31, 2015 0:17:56 GMT -5
I am underwhelmed by John Farrell and I have mixed feelings regarding Ben Cherington. However, I think the real reasons for the Red Sox struggles this year are outside of their control: 1. A stunning number of Red Sox players are having off-years. 2. Theo Epstein left behind an unholy mess when he left for Chicago.For one, I doubt he left. Booted for causation by Lucchino's marketing arm, more likely. Two, our farm is still stuffed with his acquisitions so if he left an 'unholy mess' we're in deep doodoo for the next decade+. Oh please. Theo traded the Red Sox top prospect -- TO HIMSELF!!!! I appreciate Theo's contributions to two championships, but Theo was no choir boy -- you don't get the jobs he's gotten at the age he's gotten them if you aren't very good at looking out for yourself and if you don't have an ego. You know he was just dying to be the savior of two franchises. Theo had a job lined up with the Cubs before the 2011 season began. He wasn't chased out of town.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 31, 2015 0:26:01 GMT -5
For one, I doubt he left. Booted for causation by Lucchino's marketing arm, more likely. Two, our farm is still stuffed with his acquisitions so if he left an 'unholy mess' we're in deep doodoo for the next decade+. Oh please. Theo traded the Red Sox top prospect -- TO HIMSELF!!!! I appreciate Theo's contributions to two championships, but Theo was no choir boy -- you don't get the jobs he's gotten at the age he's gotten them if you aren't very good at looking out for yourself and if you don't have an ego. You know he was just dying to be the savior of two franchises. Theo had a job lined up with the Cubs before the 2011 season began. He wasn't chased out of town.
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Post by dcsoxfan on May 31, 2015 0:27:27 GMT -5
Two things. Do you think they will add one of those pitchers you mentioned? And re: Bogaerts, I can't shake this feeling that he WILL be what we thought he would be, except it will be when he's 25 or 26 and nearing free agency. That's the danger of bringing up kids so young. Sometimes they do get to their ceilings, but it can take time, and they reach free agency younger, so you can lose out on their best seasons, so in essence you get the struggles and the fruition of their talent and the next team that signs them gets the rest of the prime and eventually a bit of their decline. It will also be interesting to see what Betts and eventually Moncada become, because at 26 or 27, those guys will likely hit free agency as opposed to somebody like Swihart who is older and won't reach it until he's nearing 30, making it most likely the Sox capture the best part of his career. 1. Yes, I think they will sign one of those guys or Jordan Zimmerman (although I am a bit nervous about signing guys who have already had TJ surgery; I'm not convinced it's necessarily a permanent fix). 2. I share your concern regarding Bogaerts. Right now Mookie looks much better than his numbers to me; I feel like he really has hit into an awful lot of bad luck. And frankly, I have been surprised at how good Swihart has looked the last week or so. I really didn't think he had anywhere near enough minor league at bats to have any chance in the Majors right now. However, the struggles of Bradley and Bogaerts have really made me nervous about Red Sox prospects. I can't understand how players can be so good immediately at AAA and then struggle so badly in the majors. Bradley especially seemed to have a much higher floor than he's shown.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 1:48:12 GMT -5
THIS PITCHING STAFF WAS NEVER GOING TO WORK. Regardless of the rationals you made this past winter. It was never going to workMost thought it would be average. Not the worst in the MLB This is revisionist history. A lot of people here considered Masterson a "good bounce back candidate" - As though reaching rock bottom would somehow magically convey to him the power to do something he had no track record of doing - Getting out left handed bats. Porcello was spoken of in glowing terms - As though he was something other than what he'd always been - The number #5 pitcher on his team. Perhaps the apex of self-delusion was the Steamer inhaled suggestion that Buchholz, Miley and Kelly would be good for more than 6 WAR and referring to that threesome as "a pretty solid back of the rotation."
forum.soxprospects.com/post/121438/thread
The reality of this starting pitching staff - Masterson, Porcello, Buchholz, Miley and Kelly at -0.3, 0.1, 0.4, 0.6, and -0.4 WAR, respectively - was entirely foreseeable. Masterson a DFA candidate? Porcello a bad contract? Buchholz same as it ever was? Miley overmatched by American League bats? Kelly's future being the bullpen? Were any of these really so inconceivable that it EVER made sense to suggest this team had anything other than a defective starting pitching staff laden with not one but multiple potential implosions? Or, was it actually the case that multiple improbable things would have had to happen in order for this starting pitching staff to be anything other than what it is?
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