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5/28-5/31 Red Sox @ Rangers Series Thread
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Post by cologneredsox on May 31, 2015 3:24:10 GMT -5
As much as I respect your knowledge of sabermetric aspects and value what info it can give, recently I really am perplexed how radical you use these infos as the only truth. While I love how this game get's analyzed with the numbers and how much info they provide, I really think sometimes it get's forgotten that it's still being played by human beings and sudden changes in performance (outside normal regression or progression norms) can happen. Of course it's possible that the underlying talent has changed. The issue here is that the 2 AB sample isn't going to confirm or deny that. Josh Hamilton homering twice off Steven Wright is much more likely to mean that Wright flukily threw two mistake pitches to the same guy rather than that Hamilton suddenly developed a magic ability to homer off any knuckleball. Recency bias is something that happens to human brains a lot. Would people be so vehement to defend their conclusions if we were talking about a 2 AB sample from a week ago rather than from the same day? Probably not. But there is no proof whatsoever that the 2 AB sample from the same day is at all special. It is just as random as any other sample. And the knuckleball really is a bit special here. I do think Farrell could theoretically see something like "hey, you're tipping off your slider to this guy and he's really good at hitting it, don't throw him any more sliders." But for knuckleballs? Nuh-uh. As Eric has preached so often, a perfect knuckleball will break randomly. It's possible a hitter might be particularily good at fouling those off, but hitting homers? I just don't believe it. I'm totally with you about the Knuckler making the two HRs potentially less likely a sign for Hamiltin figuring Wright out. But even Eric admitted that the Knuckler can be figured out if thrown with to much rotation. What if Hamilton is able to see which knucklers rotate more? Still, it's more likely the two HR were flukey. I wouldn't have brought Wright out, but an IBB seems logical. It doesn't matter anyways: As long as we're seeing these problems our offense is having, those decisions don't seem to have any affect at all...
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Post by soxcentral on May 31, 2015 7:02:59 GMT -5
Some solutions I think that might help moving forward, absent firing anyone:
- I like Wright in the rotation but with JF's endless early hooks he's best suited as the long man. The contrast to the knuckleball, and his ability to give innings, fills a major need.
- The 5th spot should go to Kelly or Brian Johnson....preferably Johnson right now.
- The only place I see for Masterson on this roster is in the pen, which means you either send Barnes down or DL someone. He really could be a DFA candidate, but I'm OK with giving him a few weeks to show he has some value left so long as he's not starting.
- We may need to flip flop Castillo and Betts in CF/RF. I think Betts is more likely to be a solid RF than Castillo.
- Hanley needs to DH against LHP full time. Sorry, Papi.
- Nava may need to go in order to get a real backup SS on the roster. Holt is more than capable as a backup OF, and Victorino can't be that far away from returning.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,583
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Post by radiohix on May 31, 2015 7:16:00 GMT -5
I don't know about the other posters here but I reached the point where all I care about is: - Good performances and progress in all the aspects of the game from the kids (Mookie, X, Swihart, Barnes, Rodriguez) - Waiting for a Brian Johnson promotion and JBJ getting a second chance. - Return to health for Workman and Escobar and C. Vazquez. That is all at this point! Because this team has been a disgrace! An ugly baseball in all its aspects: They can't hit, can't field, can't run, can't pitch...Just an abomination!
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 7:44:16 GMT -5
I like Wright in the rotation but with JF's endless early hooks he's best suited as the long man. His struggles early in games this year suggest he might be much better as a starter than as a reliever, though. A long man doesn't get 20 minutes to get warmed up properly.
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Post by ray88h66 on May 31, 2015 8:00:55 GMT -5
I don't have any answers. I thought the Sox would have to win a lot of 6 to 5, 7 to 6 games.
I never thought 50 games in any Sox team could be scoring 2.8 runs a game.
I never thought Hanley would be this bad.
Never thought the defense and base running would be this bad.
Unlike last year the sox don't have a lot to sell when they pack it in unless they totally blow it and trade the farm away.
Very few games of solid baseball even when they win. I don't know what they can do about it.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on May 31, 2015 8:05:21 GMT -5
Some solutions I think that might help moving forward, absent firing anyone: - I like Wright in the rotation but with JF's endless early hooks he's best suited as the long man. The contrast to the knuckleball, and his ability to give innings, fills a major need. - The 5th spot should go to Kelly or Brian Johnson....preferably Johnson right now. - The only place I see for Masterson on this roster is in the pen, which means you either send Barnes down or DL someone. He really could be a DFA candidate, but I'm OK with giving him a few weeks to show he has some value left so long as he's not starting. - We may need to flip flop Castillo and Betts in CF/RF. I think Betts is more likely to be a solid RF than Castillo. - Hanley needs to DH against LHP full time. Sorry, Papi. - Nava may need to go in order to get a real backup SS on the roster. Holt is more than capable as a backup OF, and Victorino can't be that far away from returning. I don't usually post on this thread.....the "swings" are usually all-over the place from "the world is ending" to "we're a beast". Usually I see us as being on the right track. It is sort of hard to take that stance currently. I was going to post after last night's masquerade, and then I saw the post above.....and since I agree with most of it, I just wanted to add. When a dike has too many holes to shore up, most folks would just run for the high country. Those mountains are starting to look pretty good about now. I'm like most of you on here....I like to think how I would run this operation if I was the GM. Usually there are specific places that need immediate attention and you start there. On May 31st, that is not so easy. So here goes: one of my biggest concerns is the defense. It was absolutely terrible yesterday, and the errors didn't even count the poor read by Castillo, the o-lay D by Sandoval, and the circus in left. I'd start with Hanley. Yes with all of the problems with our rotation and our un-timely hitting, I'd start with Mr. Ramirez. After more than 1/4 of the season gone, I'm shocked how absolutely bad Hanley is in left field. Now I'm not saying our pitching would be that much better if Hanley was passable, but they wouldn't have to cringe every time some one hits one out there, and it may give them more confidence. Can you believe Manny is a vastly superior outfielder? Again, I'd start with what do we do with Mr. Hanley Ramirez today, tomorrow, and next year. Hard to believe that half of us on this board could probably take a better route on a fly ball than Hanley. I like Mike Napoli. Mike is a great teammate. But I'd start working Hanley taking grounders at first before games NOW and consider moving Nap. Napoli will almost certainly not be resigned. He is an excellent first baseman, but his offense is too inconsistent and lacking for me. With Ortiz not giving us much at all so far, I would be using Hanley more and more at DH. If Ortiz does not wake-up by July, I think it is time to do the unthinkable. Yes....cut ties. Now let me say this: I love Papi and am really not sure about Ramirez, but Hanley is much younger and we have 3 more years on his contract. We need to score runs. Move Pedroia back to the 3 hole and don't worry about stepping on ANYBODY'S toes. Until we make a decision on Ortiz, let him bat 6th and be pissed. Sometimes David plays better being really pissed. Move Xander up to 1st or 2nd with Mookie being the other. Get the kids showing these complacent veterans some spark. Move Nava and bring Bradley back up and give him 6-weeks of continual action before making up our minds. Unless Castillo gets it together, at least have Bradley and him platoon. PRAY that Craig continues his progress in AAA, and hope he can come up in July and give us a lift. As for the pitching: Kelly and Masterson should be placed in the bullpen for the remainder of the season. Kelly's 98 will play up well for 1 or 2 innings and Masterson, against righties, may be OK. Get rid of Breslow and Ross. Use Barnes more and more in tight situations. The rotation? I'd remake it on the run in the next 4 to 6 weeks. Eduardo Rodriguez is part of the rotation going forward. Buch, Miley, and Porcello, whether we like it or not, are in the rotation. Steven Wright would give us a solid swing man (spot starter and a bullpen arm that can throw multiple innings in back to back games). Bring up Brian Johnson and lets see if he is ready NOW. The rotation from June until deep into July is Buch, Miley, Porcello, Eduardo, and Brian Johnson. As we get closer to the trade deadline in July, we make a change if necessary. NOW here is where Ben Cherington and I may disagree. If we are somehow still in the race, we trade for a real ace and go all out to sign him to market value. It could be Hamels (already signed), Cuerto, Zimmerman, etc.....but we need to finally understand that we have to have a guy who we feel great about every 5 days about us winning when we take the field. This team has no confidence about winning on ANY of the 5 days with the way our staff is constructed. We need to sign someone like David Price, etc. in the upcoming months. Ben has to finally understand how important that one guy is. I was, and am, very happy he did not trade a Swihart or a Betts for Cole Hamels. But we need to understand, if not now this winter, we have to have a top guy who stops the bleeding. So there is my plan. Easy! Right?
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,842
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Post by wcp3 on May 31, 2015 8:13:39 GMT -5
Steven Wright's best role would be to pitch for another team.
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 8:42:36 GMT -5
On the idea of calling up Brian Johnson to push Steven Wright out of the rotation: it's fine and well if you think Johnson is sexier, or the shiny new thing, or whatever. But the fact of the matter is that (1) there is no objective basis for confidence that Johnson will be better than Wright (note that I say confidence! It is possible!) and (2) Wright is on his final option year, whereas Johnson isn't even on the 40-man yet. The Red Sox need to finally figure out what they have in Wright this year, whereas they have all the time in the world with Johnson.
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Post by jmei on May 31, 2015 8:53:15 GMT -5
On the idea of calling up Brian Johnson to push Steven Wright out of the rotation: it's fine and well if you think Johnson is sexier, or the shiny new thing, or whatever. But the fact of the matter is that (1) there is no objective basis for confidence that Johnson will be better than Wright (note that I say confidence! It is possible!) PECOTA 50th percentile projections, RoS: Steven Wright: 5.54 ERA, 1.61 WHIP Brian Johnson: 4.05 ERA, 1.37 WHIP If ZiPS and Steamer had projections for Johnson, I suspect they would concur. Yes, I know you don't trust projections for Wright. But the projections for Johnson are going to be pretty positive, and I'm skeptical that Wright is much more than a one win-ish player, which is not a huge hurdle to jump.
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Post by jmei on May 31, 2015 8:57:41 GMT -5
Most thought it would be average. Not the worst in the MLB This is revisionist history. A lot of people here considered Masterson a "good bounce back candidate" - As though reaching rock bottom would somehow magically convey to him the power to do something he had no track record of doing - Getting out left handed bats. Porcello was spoken of in glowing terms - As though he was something other than what he'd always been - The number #5 pitcher on his team. Perhaps the apex of self-delusion was the Steamer inhaled suggestion that Buchholz, Miley and Kelly would be good for more than 6 WAR and referring to that threesome as "a pretty solid back of the rotation."
forum.soxprospects.com/post/121438/thread
The reality of this starting pitching staff - Masterson, Porcello, Buchholz, Miley and Kelly at -0.3, 0.1, 0.4, 0.6, and -0.4 WAR, respectively - was entirely foreseeable. Masterson a DFA candidate? Porcello a bad contract? Buchholz same as it ever was? Miley overmatched by American League bats? Kelly's future being the bullpen? Were any of these really so inconceivable that it EVER made sense to suggest this team had anything other than a defective starting pitching staff laden with not one but multiple potential implosions? Or, was it actually the case that multiple improbable things would have had to happen in order for this starting pitching staff to be anything other than what it is?
Clay Buchholz is on pace for a 4.0 fWAR/200 IP season. Wade Miley is on pace for a 3.0 fWAR/200 IP season. Joe Kelly is on pace for an 0.8 fWAR/200 IP season. Sure, Masterson was a bust, but everyone else has been subject to bad defense and bad luck. We'll see where they rank at the end of the season. I'm patient enough to wait until then for the I-told-you-sos.
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,838
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Post by steveofbradenton on May 31, 2015 9:13:19 GMT -5
On the idea of calling up Brian Johnson to push Steven Wright out of the rotation: it's fine and well if you think Johnson is sexier, or the shiny new thing, or whatever. But the fact of the matter is that (1) there is no objective basis for confidence that Johnson will be better than Wright (note that I say confidence! It is possible!) and (2) Wright is on his final option year, whereas Johnson isn't even on the 40-man yet. The Red Sox need to finally figure out what they have in Wright this year, whereas they have all the time in the world with Johnson. I like what Wright adds, but I believe: 1) he would be VERY helpful pitching for us in the 5th and 6th innings (maybe the 4th!) for some of these poor performances 2) to keep procrastinating about certain players like Johnson.....who may give us no chance to salvage this season. Johnson is an "older" prospect who has shown he can handle AAA.....well! What do we have to lose on May 31st by showing some of these idiots that this team is serious about competing this year? I would stop coddling Miley and gang any more. It is time for them to get really serious, or be pulled out (and hopefully embarrassed) by a quick hook by Farrell. I'm sure John Farrell has had it with a bunch of starters who either give you a little tease or an absolute horror show. Wright, and maybe Barnes, should be on alert that they may be called as early as the 3rd, if any of these guys suck again. Being in the rotation is a privilege not a right. I can't remember a rotation in which each of the 5 starters have 2 or more real stinkers by the 1/4 season. Everyone of them needs to be "spanked". Hear that Willis? The next time a starter needs to be pulled before the 5th inning is finished has to lie down on home plate, pull their pants down, and be spanked. Love to hear from the player's union on that one.
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 9:16:03 GMT -5
PECOTA 50th percentile projections, RoS: Steven Wright: 5.54 ERA, 1.61 WHIP Brian Johnson: 4.05 ERA, 1.37 WHIP Yeah, meanwhile Marcel the Monkey might project Steven Wright to have an ERA of (5.40*59 + 2.57*86*2 + 3.90*115*3 + 3.88*1200)/(59+86*2+115*3+1200) = 3.81 going forward. Note that the unregressed component of that is 3.66, he's just being pulled pretty far towards the league average of 3.88 due to low sample size.
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Post by jmei on May 31, 2015 9:19:26 GMT -5
PECOTA 50th percentile projections, RoS: Steven Wright: 5.54 ERA, 1.61 WHIP Brian Johnson: 4.05 ERA, 1.37 WHIP Yeah, meanwhile Marcel the Monkey might project Steven Wright to have an ERA of (5.40*59 + 2.57*86*2 + 3.90*115*3 + 3.88*1200)/(59+86*2+115*3+1200) = 3.81 going forward. Note that the unregressed component of that is 3.66, he's just being pulled pretty far towards the league average of 3.88 due to low sample size. I'm really, really skeptical of using Marcel projections with guys with 62 career major league innings, especially since many of them came in relief. Meanwhile, Steamer RoS: 4.76 ERA, 4.60 FIP ZiPS RoS: 5.30 ERA, 5.27 FIP
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 9:23:34 GMT -5
Yeah, meanwhile Marcel the Monkey might project Steven Wright to have an ERA of (5.40*59 + 2.57*86*2 + 3.90*115*3 + 3.88*1200)/(59+86*2+115*3+1200) = 3.81 going forward. Note that the unregressed component of that is 3.66, he's just being pulled pretty far towards the league average of 3.88 due to low sample size. I'm really, really skeptical of using Marcel projections with guys with 62 career major league innings, especially since many of them came in relief. Meanwhile, Steamer RoS: 4.76 ERA, 4.60 FIP ZiPS RoS: 5.30 ERA, 5.27 FIP My point is, wherever these projection systems are getting their numbers from, they're clearly not from Wright's stats. Give me one reason why I should be less skeptical about the PECOTA/ZiPS/Steamer projections than you are about the Marcel projection. Edit to add: Basically, the projection systems are like the guys on this forum who say "I hate all knuckleballers, no matter how good they are." They see that knuckleballers have historically failed but ignore all the plausible arguments for Steven Wright being an exception.
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Post by jmei on May 31, 2015 9:36:40 GMT -5
I'm really, really skeptical of using Marcel projections with guys with 62 career major league innings, especially since many of them came in relief. Meanwhile, Steamer RoS: 4.76 ERA, 4.60 FIP ZiPS RoS: 5.30 ERA, 5.27 FIP My point is, wherever these projection systems are getting their numbers from, they're clearly not from Wright's stats. Give me one reason why I should be less skeptical about the PECOTA/ZiPS/Steamer projections than you are about the Marcel projection. I suspect the main reason those projections are so negative is that Wright is 30 (turns 31 in August) and his peripherals have never been that impressive. He puts up decent FIPs because he doesn't give up many homers, but that could just be small sample noise. His walk and strikeout numbers have been pretty meh in both the majors (9.6% K-BB%) and the minors (8.7% K-BB% since 2013), and he's not a huge ground ball guy. Regardless, my point is that there is absolutely objective evidence suggesting that Johnson might be a better rotation option than Wright. Here is some more-- since the start of 2013, minor league stats only: Wright: 273.1 IP, 18% K, 9.3% BB, 8.7% K-BB%, 3.26 ERA, 3.94 FIP Johnson: 295.0 IP, 24.1% K, 8% BB, 16.1% K-BB%, 2.38 ERA, 3.07 FIP ADD: all that said, I think neither Wright nor Johnson get a rotation spot-- they're working with a 6-man rotation at the moment, and Wright probably gets shifted to relief or optioned to the minors after he makes his next start. I'm not giving up on Joe Kelly and his 4.11 SIERA yet.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 31, 2015 9:49:15 GMT -5
some here want a real backup SS. Let's review. THUR Bianchi gets DFA THUR Xander HBP arm SAT Bianchi clears waivers and becomes FA SAT Holt 2 errors
I don't know what the plan is today with Ross. Are they going with a 6-man bullpen or keeping Ross and staying with a short bench? If they didn't bring back Bianchi, looks like they plan on living with a short bench.
(Designated for assignment, alternatives: 1. return the player to the 40-man roster within 10 days from the date of designation)
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dd
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Posts: 979
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Post by dd on May 31, 2015 9:54:33 GMT -5
[...] So here goes: one of my biggest concerns is the defense. It was absolutely terrible yesterday, and the errors didn't even count the poor read by Castillo, the o-lay D by Sandoval, and the circus in left. Yes! This was the main cause of my tantrum last night. (Not so much online but you should have been here!) A team can have bad or good luck in hitting and pitching and it can some times last a while. Good defense though is generally pretty steady IMO. Bad D the same. Castillo bothers me as much as Hanley. It's not just his D, it's that it doesn't always seem like he knows how, or cares to, play the game of baseball as it should be played at the MLB level. He doesn't know that when you round 2nd base you should be looking at the 3rd base coach. not looking backwards to right field. He also doesn't know the job of the on deck hitter when a runner is rounding 3rd. This is stuff they teach you in Little League. I was glad when he was brought up too, but it seems that somebody in the organization should have known (even before he was signed!) that he needed more work on fundamentals.
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Post by soxfan1615 on May 31, 2015 9:58:52 GMT -5
Meanwhile Tampa, with it's team of nobodies that some projection systems had winning as few as 70 games looks like a good year Oakland team here at the 50 game mark. Also providing more evidence that good pitching + defense > good hitting. But Ben begged to differ when he put together the "Offensive Juggernaut." Well, at least he got the first part right. This team sure is offensive. Care to explain why pitching + defense > hitting? You win the game by scoring more runs than the other team. That means they are equal because both score or prevent runs. This is just garbage. Bens problem is the team isn't actually hitting, not that hitting is less important or something like this garbage.
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 9:59:15 GMT -5
I suspect the main reason those projections are so negative is that Wright is 30 (turns 31 in August) Yes, and that's a very poor argument against Wright, since he has been throwing the knuckleball for only 4 years or so. Might, sure - I did go out of my way to differentiate that from reasons to be confident that Johnson will be better. The counterargument to those minor league stats is the the knuckleball will translate better to the majors, because major-league hitters are selected for their skill at hitting the sort of stuff Johnson throws, not knuckleballs. And, again, this has to be weighed at least somewhat against their respective roster status too. Yes, I made this argument mainly as an argument against calling Johnson up, which would be almost certain to push out Wright. I also disagree strongly with moving Kelly to the bullpen - for me, he has flashed too much potential as a starter this season. I would option him to Pawtucket instead to let him sort out his command issues. Moving Miley to the bullpen also seems out of the question, but he too has options. So really what it boils down to is that one of the 6 guys currently in the rotation is going to get optioned, and it's not going to be Buchholz or Porcello. If E-Rod has another good start, such that optioning him becomes undesirable, the "easy" answer is going to be Wright. But I am just so sick of seeing him bounced around all the time while everyone else gets the kid glove treatment. Come on, give the man just ONE shot at being a regular member of the MLB rotation, he's earned it.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 31, 2015 10:09:32 GMT -5
some here want a real backup SS. Let's review. THUR Bianchi gets DFA THUR Xander HBP arm SAT Bianchi clears waivers and becomes FA SAT Holt 2 errors I don't know what the plan is today with Ross. Are they going with a 6-man bullpen or keeping Ross and staying with a short bench? If they didn't bring back Bianchi, looks like they plan on living with a short bench. (Designated for assignment, alternatives: 1. return the player to the 40-man roster within 10 days from the date of designation) They can't just return Bianchi. They already elected to outright him. They'd have to re-sign him as a free agent, and if he elected free agency, but guess is that he would like to head elsewhere.
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Post by jmei on May 31, 2015 10:15:36 GMT -5
Might, sure - I did go out of my way to differentiate that from reasons to be confident that Johnson will be better. The counterargument to those minor league stats is the the knuckleball will translate better to the majors, because major-league hitters are selected for their skill at hitting the sort of stuff Johnson throws, not knuckleballs. And, again, this has to be weighed at least somewhat against their respective roster status too. You said "here is no objective basis for confidence that Johnson will be better than Wright." Even if you give Wright a 20% knuckleball bonus (which I disagree with and have argued against, but will gloss over for now), Johnson still has a better minor league track record. I'm less worried about the roster status since the knuckleball means Wright needs less stretching out, so he can stick on the roster as a long man. Plus, you know, I just don't think he's very good.
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Post by mgoetze on May 31, 2015 10:26:29 GMT -5
Plus, you know, I just don't think he's very good. Well, yeah, that always seems to be what it boils down to.
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Post by larrycook on May 31, 2015 10:51:11 GMT -5
While the rotation has a few issues, I still think our lineup needs to be rearranged. We have too many inning killers stacked up from three to six.
Step one is to drop Napoli to the 8 hole followed by the catcher,
Step two is to sit Ortiz vs left handed pitching and dropping him to fifth vs right handed pitching.
Maybe something like:
1.) betts 2.) holt 3.) pedroia 4.) rameriez 5.) Ortiz 6.) bogarts 7.) sandavol 8.) Napoli 9.) swihart
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Post by moonstone2 on May 31, 2015 10:52:04 GMT -5
some here want a real backup SS. Let's review. THUR Bianchi gets DFA THUR Xander HBP arm SAT Bianchi clears waivers and becomes FA SAT Holt 2 errors I don't know what the plan is today with Ross. Are they going with a 6-man bullpen or keeping Ross and staying with a short bench? If they didn't bring back Bianchi, looks like they plan on living with a short bench. (Designated for assignment, alternatives: 1. return the player to the 40-man roster within 10 days from the date of designation) They can't just return Bianchi. They already elected to outright him. They'd have to re-sign him as a free agent, and if he elected free agency, but guess is that he would like to head elsewhere. [ Bianchi cleared waivers and elected free agency.
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Post by jmei on May 31, 2015 10:57:57 GMT -5
While the rotation has a few issues, I still think our lineup needs to be rearranged. We have too many inning killers stacked up from three to six. Step one is to drop Napoli to the 8 hole followed by the catcher, Step two is to sit Ortiz vs left handed pitching and dropping him to fifth vs right handed pitching. Maybe something like: 1.) betts 2.) holt 3.) pedroia 4.) rameriez 5.) Ortiz 6.) bogarts 7.) sandavol 8.) Napoli 9.) swihart Napoli, the guy who hit 5 home runs last week?
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