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Post by greatscottcooper on Aug 26, 2015 20:14:58 GMT -5
You reap what you sow, I think people need to except that Trey Ball isn't going to look like the next high caliber all-star that the 7th pick has seemingly returned multiple times. Prospects bust, it happens all the time. Trey Ball is more probable than not, not going to live up to any expectations he had when he was drafted #7. Now, just because he might not be a future front line starter or even a mid line starter doesn't mean he could be a good hitter. What is the track record for high school outfielders with 2nd round talent??? How about those who missed 2 years of developmental time at a crucial age? I'd be more comfortable moving a hitter to pitching than the other way around. Stuff is stuff, but hitters need crucial at bats and time to adjust as they move up a learning curve.
Let him develop as a starter and see where it goes, he's still relatively young. If he ends up being a good back of the rotation starter, the awesome. This team does an excellent job overall of bringing in talent into the organization.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Aug 26, 2015 22:22:06 GMT -5
What I just don't get about all of this is that Ball was an extremely risky pick from day one. Extremely skinny kid playing in Indiana ( or wherever it was ). There were lots of HS pitchers who can throw 92 mph who were available well into the 2nd round, who would be just as good a pick as Ball at the time. The athleticism and height go only so far. It took me 2 nanoseconds to completely rule out that option before the draft. Really nice kid and I still hope the best for him but no way he should have been given the #7 pick. If Boldt wanted $2 mil give him the pick or any number of other options. I don't care what the scouts said at the time. Stupid pick at #7. You don't role the dice that much with the #7 pick.
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Post by jmei on Sept 22, 2015 14:50:50 GMT -5
Kiley McDaniel with an interesting Trey Ball hypothetical in his chat today:
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Post by sibbysisti on Nov 9, 2015 7:05:15 GMT -5
This one's for all the Trey Ball fans in the house: How is that tweet even remotely related to Trey Ball? They were in the same draft but I don!t see any correlation because of Biertemple's opinion.
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nomar
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Nov 9, 2015 8:12:36 GMT -5
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Post by nomar on Nov 9, 2015 8:12:36 GMT -5
This one's for all the Trey Ball fans in the house: I guess if you put Marte in CF, Polanco improves a ton offensively, and Meadows pans out, then that's true. Otherwise replacing a 6-8 WAR player might be a little tough to do...
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 9, 2015 10:40:31 GMT -5
This one's for all the Trey Ball fans in the house: With all due respect, that scout is an idiot. And I like Meadows well enough.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 9, 2015 13:24:53 GMT -5
This one's for all the Trey Ball fans in the house: How is that tweet even remotely related to Trey Ball? They were in the same draft but I don!t see any correlation because of Biertemple's opinion. It's being said because there were a bunch of people who would have thought that the Sox would have taken Meadows instead of Ball with the thought that the Sox were pretty hot for Clint Frazier and Meadows and him were always linked with the thought that one of them could be a fallback option if the other was off the board, but instead the Sox thought they'd take a chance on the athleticism and rawness of Trey Ball, so they passed on Meadows. Time will tell if they regret it. There's a better than non-zero chance they could. Guess we'll see how it plays out.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 9, 2015 13:32:41 GMT -5
How is that tweet even remotely related to Trey Ball? They were in the same draft but I don!t see any correlation because of Biertemple's opinion. It's being said because there were a bunch of people who would have thought that the Sox would have taken Meadows instead of Ball with the thought that the Sox were pretty hot for Clint Frazier and Meadows and him were always linked with the thought that one of them could be a fallback option if the other was off the board, but instead the Sox thought they'd take a chance on the athleticism and rawness of Trey Ball, so they passed on Meadows. Time will tell if they regret it. There's a better than non-zero chance they could. Guess we'll see how it plays out. I don't think there's a better test of glass half empty vs. glass half full when judging fans who can't get over that. Thankfully it seems they pulled off the reverse of that this year with Benintendi so far. I'm sure the "but I wanted Meadows!" guys never got anything else wrong and would have the Red Sox farm system as the best in baseball history instead of just the best in baseball if only they were in charge of it.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 9, 2015 13:37:57 GMT -5
Better than non zero? Let's just put it how it is. There's probably a 95% chance that Meadows is a more valuable player than Ball. Time to move on though. Not every pick is a home run.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 9, 2015 13:48:11 GMT -5
It's being said because there were a bunch of people who would have thought that the Sox would have taken Meadows instead of Ball with the thought that the Sox were pretty hot for Clint Frazier and Meadows and him were always linked with the thought that one of them could be a fallback option if the other was off the board, but instead the Sox thought they'd take a chance on the athleticism and rawness of Trey Ball, so they passed on Meadows. Time will tell if they regret it. There's a better than non-zero chance they could. Guess we'll see how it plays out. I don't think there's a better test of glass half empty vs. glass half full when judging fans who can't get over that. Thankfully it seems they pulled off the reverse of that this year with Benintendi so far. I'm sure the "but I wanted Meadows!" guys never got anything else wrong and would have the Red Sox farm system as the best in baseball history instead of just the best in baseball if only they were in charge of it. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. It certainly gets more magnified when the team comes off a terrible season and the small consolation is knowing that you're picking very high up in the draft, and have a decent shot at picking somebody that really impacts that team going forward. So if Ball is a miss and Meadows is a hit then it gets more magnified even though you can point out how many teams let Mike Trout slip by or laugh at how in the past Piazza didn't get drafted to a ridiculously high number round and only then as a favor was he drafted. And of course there are the hits. I mean there might be a team or two that regrets not getting Benintendi and I'm certainly glad that when the Sox were wavering at picking Kurt Suzuki or Dustin Pedroia with their draft pick, they took Pedey. Of course, this is a game you can play with every team, and they all have hits and plenty of misses on their records. Doesn't stop the second guessing in a higher profile case like this, though. Anyways, I'm done posting about this subject as I was trying to answer the original thread of what one had to do with the other. It certainly won't affect the 2016 Red Sox or even the 2016 Pirates for that matter, and it won't fix what the Sox need fixed.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 9, 2015 13:48:18 GMT -5
Better than non zero? Let's just put it how it is. There probably a 95% chance that Meadows is a more valuable player than Ball. Time to move on though. Not every pick is a home run. A number 7 pick should be at least a triple.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 9, 2015 14:13:48 GMT -5
I don't think there's a better test of glass half empty vs. glass half full when judging fans who can't get over that. Thankfully it seems they pulled off the reverse of that this year with Benintendi so far. I'm sure the "but I wanted Meadows!" guys never got anything else wrong and would have the Red Sox farm system as the best in baseball history instead of just the best in baseball if only they were in charge of it. You're a Trey Ball fan. We get it. forum.soxprospects.com/post/31330/threadThat post hardly says that.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 9, 2015 16:16:03 GMT -5
Better than non zero? Let's just put it how it is. There probably a 95% chance that Meadows is a more valuable player than Ball. Time to move on though. Not every pick is a home run. A number 7 pick should be at least a triple. It happens. That draft is looking pretty weak though. Not the best year to have the 7th pick. Even Meadows strikes me as the tweener type. His defense will have to be very good at a corner to be a star player like some insinuate. Dom Smith's lack of power concerns me even if he got a bunch of doubles. Appel has been a complete waste of time in the sense that he got hyped for two years and looks bad. Bryant is a monster and Gray should be solid if Colorado doesn't ruin him. Meh class overall as of today.
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Nov 9, 2015 17:02:06 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on Nov 9, 2015 17:02:06 GMT -5
I don't think there's a better test of glass half empty vs. glass half full when judging fans who can't get over that. Thankfully it seems they pulled off the reverse of that this year with Benintendi so far. I'm sure the "but I wanted Meadows!" guys never got anything else wrong and would have the Red Sox farm system as the best in baseball history instead of just the best in baseball if only they were in charge of it. You're a Trey Ball fan. We get it. forum.soxprospects.com/post/31330/threadI think he's just tired of people whining about Ball not having panned out. It *is* pretty tedious.
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Post by heisenberg on Nov 9, 2015 17:09:00 GMT -5
I think he's just tired of people whining about Ball not having panned out. It *is* pretty tedious. It's not even a matter of panning out or not. We've had picks that reasonable people knew weren't good at the time they were made. Kolbrin Vitek anyone?
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 9, 2015 17:13:39 GMT -5
I think he's just tired of people whining about Ball not having panned out. It *is* pretty tedious. It's not even a matter of panning out or not. We've had picks that reasonable people knew weren't good at the time they were made. Kolbrin Vitek anyone? So let's complain about it daily for the rest of our lives. That's fun.
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Trey Ball
Nov 9, 2015 17:16:22 GMT -5
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Post by soxfan1615 on Nov 9, 2015 17:16:22 GMT -5
It's unfortunate that we had a GM who clearly had no idea what he was doing when we had the highest pick we've had in years, but you can't get too worked up about it. Sure, it was completely idiotic to draft an old, unknown HS pitcher who didn't even have good stuff (all he had was "projectability") but we've since replaced the GM and our franchise looks to be in much better shape.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 9, 2015 17:21:02 GMT -5
It's unfortunate that we had a GM who clearly had no idea what he was doing when we had the highest pick we've had in years, but you can't get too worked up about it. Sure, it was completely idiotic to draft an old, unknown HS pitcher who didn't even have good stuff (all he had was "projectability") but we've since replaced the GM and our franchise looks to be in much better shape. Wow. Good thing we had that same GM when he picked at the same spot this year.
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Nov 9, 2015 17:26:08 GMT -5
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Post by soxfan1615 on Nov 9, 2015 17:26:08 GMT -5
It's unfortunate that we had a GM who clearly had no idea what he was doing when we had the highest pick we've had in years, but you can't get too worked up about it. Sure, it was completely idiotic to draft an old, unknown HS pitcher who didn't even have good stuff (all he had was "projectability") but we've since replaced the GM and our franchise looks to be in much better shape. Wow. Good thing we had that same GM when he picked at the same spot this year. First of all, Benintendi is already a good pick? He had a good half season in two leagues he was way too advanced for. If he performs in the majors he's a good pick. Despite that, I agree, he looks much better than Ball did at the time since Ball was an old HS pitcher who didn't have good stuff and was only ranked higher than projectability. You should never draft any HS pitcher that high, it only makes it worse when he doesn't have good stuff. But if Benintendi turns out to be a good player, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. Sort of like the .329 team BABIP in 2013.
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Trey Ball
Nov 9, 2015 17:28:39 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on Nov 9, 2015 17:28:39 GMT -5
I think he's just tired of people whining about Ball not having panned out. It *is* pretty tedious. It's not even a matter of panning out or not. We've had picks that reasonable people knew weren't good at the time they were made. Kolbrin Vitek anyone? I wasn't a fan of Vitek as a pick. But I certainly thought Jason Place had a shot. And I liked Lars Anderson early on. Frankie Rodriguez...I thought he was going to put up Nomar numbers, and then I thought he'd put up Pedro numbers. Ball was a high-risk/high-reward who signed a below-slot deal and was rated by most evaluators at the time as a guy probably in the 8-12 range. They missed. I've noticed that the hindsight of "reasonable people" is outstanding, and they rarely stop crowing about it. If prospect evaluation were that easy, Bryant would've been picked first that year. Mookie Betts would've been rated *in the top 500* by BA (he wasn't) in 2011 (another pick I loved at the time, because I thought he'd stick at SS...but I never dreamed he'd be the hitter he is today). I was incredibly irritated at the Brian Johnson pick, but he may just pan out. I wasn't a fan of Light, but he may pan out as well. Hell, I was excited that they got Barnes...I thought he had #2 upside. And I loved their pick of Trot at 7, but he never came close to being what I'd hoped...despite being a very solid player for a long time. It's the nature of the draft, and frankly baseball in general. The people who make the most noise when they're right are invariably the same ones who disappear when they're wrong. Generally, they're quiet a lot more often than not.
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Post by telson13 on Nov 9, 2015 17:31:19 GMT -5
It's unfortunate that we had a GM who clearly had no idea what he was doing when we had the highest pick we've had in years, but you can't get too worked up about it. Sure, it was completely idiotic to draft an old, unknown HS pitcher who didn't even have good stuff (all he had was "projectability") but we've since replaced the GM and our franchise looks to be in much better shape. Wow. Good thing we had that same GM when he picked at the same spot this year. I'm surprised you even bothered to validate that with a response. Or didn't you notice how awful their farm system is? Bums throughout. (Shakes fist) Stupid Cherington!
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Trey Ball
Nov 9, 2015 17:36:15 GMT -5
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Post by soxfan1615 on Nov 9, 2015 17:36:15 GMT -5
Wow. Good thing we had that same GM when he picked at the same spot this year. I'm surprised you even bothered to validate that with a response. Or didn't you notice how awful their farm system is? Bums throughout. (Shakes fist) Stupid Cherington! Big money IFAs signed using money that probably came from the major league payroll (I don't think John Henry signed Moncada out of his own pocket) and Theo inheritances. Look at the SP rankings, and you'll see how low the Cherington draft picks are ranked. Not even to mention the horrible major league team every year we don't have a historic BABIP and currently bloated budget
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Post by jmei on Nov 9, 2015 17:39:40 GMT -5
Let's keep this thread to Trey Ball. If you want to discuss Cherington generally, start a new thread on the topic.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Nov 9, 2015 20:27:07 GMT -5
I don't think there's a better test of glass half empty vs. glass half full when judging fans who can't get over that. Thankfully it seems they pulled off the reverse of that this year with Benintendi so far. I'm sure the "but I wanted Meadows!" guys never got anything else wrong and would have the Red Sox farm system as the best in baseball history instead of just the best in baseball if only they were in charge of it. This is lousy rhetoric. Saying Ball was a mistake is not the same as saying "I never make mistakes." It's like saying last February was snowy in Boston.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 10, 2015 9:11:32 GMT -5
It's unfortunate that we had a GM who clearly had no idea what he was doing when we had the highest pick we've had in years, but you can't get too worked up about it. Sure, it was completely idiotic to draft an old, unknown HS pitcher who didn't even have good stuff (all he had was "projectability") but we've since replaced the GM and our franchise looks to be in much better shape. Ball was projected to go between picks 8 and 15. The only reason the Sox taking him was so surprising was because he hadn't been linked to them at all while Meadows had been. If it was a reach, it was only a slight one. No need to go so hard on the hyperbole.
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