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Post by GyIantosca on Jul 16, 2015 20:38:11 GMT -5
I saw a program about over the counter products and they pretty much put anything in there. I don't know why some of the public doesn't believe you can test positive on an over the counter supplement.
I agree with Danr that this should be in a different category for punishment.
Wow I just read the Kopech rebuttal. You cant fight this based on a false positive or they must have a "B" sample to test.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jul 16, 2015 20:52:27 GMT -5
Good points. And, Rafael, Shame on Minor League Baseball for using such a rigid and unsophisticated method of dealing with the careers of young kids; especially considering there is no appeal.
If the only way this substance can be procured is through a supplement from a GNC type outlet; and if serious research has determined that supplement manufacturers are unscrupulous in how they make, market and sell their products, then the burden should be on Baseball to prove intent to use the banned substance. Barring that, appeals should be allowed. This seems to be the equivalent of debtors prison.
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Post by grmoore27 on Jul 16, 2015 20:59:33 GMT -5
He was suspended by the MLB commissioners office. Why would the Commissioner care how many pitches this kid has thrown? If you're being sarcastic, it wasn't very good. Sarcasm only works when the thing you say makes sense. Sarcasm is only sarcasm when it's not sarcasm. Its also the least helpful form of communication because it's not genuine |
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Post by kman22 on Jul 16, 2015 21:26:36 GMT -5
Sarcasm is only sarcasm when it's not sarcasm. Its also the least helpful form of communication because it's not genuine Tough room. |
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Post by telson13 on Jul 16, 2015 21:26:48 GMT -5
Poor decision making from a guy who probably didn't need to use this drug. Really disappointing. Meh, it's a naturally-occurring compound. He probably took a supplement that contained bitter orange extract, and may or may not have known. I'd put this way down my list of concerns...there's steroids, controlled amphetamines, and then way down the list methylsynephrine (oxilofrine). Falls under my list of "why is this even banned?" stuff. Next they'll be tagging guys for drinking too much coffee. Hey, cAMP inhibiting methylxanthines like caffeine have stimulant and energy-utilization effects, and they're NCAA-banned. At some point, it just gets ridiculous. Creatine occurs naturally in raw eggs (hence the old boxing practice of downing a dozen in the AM Rocky-style). Some of these rules are reductions to absurdity. |
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Post by telson13 on Jul 16, 2015 21:40:50 GMT -5
This seems to me to be part of the extreme over-reaction of MLB after having completely disregarded steroid use, with a wink and a nod, at the end of the last millenium and the beginning of this one. Unable to identify a middle ground, the broad brush approach sucks in even marginal drugs such as this stimulant. As shaqtus and brnichols have pointed out, the extremely broad formulations and complete lack of regulation insure an enormous swath of shadow-land exists in the supplement business. The only answer is the one mentioned by a few posters, of having trainers check the supplements you're using. and most of the players probably do use them. But, as the NY Times story makes clear, you or the trainer may not have a clue about the complete list of ingredients. The next step is to have team-certified formulations from the companies, because the supplement business, post'94 ruling, is *incredibly* shady. Short of that, the team just OK-ing supplements isn't sufficient, because they may still contain illegal ingredients. If teams were smart they'd save samples with a source for each supplement players used, so that if a player tested positive they could have the samples HPLC-MS tested and analyzed for offending substances. They may then be able to take legal action in a civil suit against the supplier. I guarantee this would have at least some effect on cleaning up the business. Money talks. And teams stand to lose money if players test positive...hit the supplement makers where it really hurts, and hit them brutally hard. The smaller, shadier companies would be bankrupted quickly. |
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Post by telson13 on Jul 16, 2015 21:45:41 GMT -5
Sarcasm is only sarcasm when it's not sarcasm. Its also the least helpful form of communication because it's not genuine Yeah, apparently you're of the mind that this forum is the ideal venue to teach (preach?) "non-violent communication." But, it isn't. How about lightening up and dropping it? |
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Post by borisman on Jul 17, 2015 6:06:34 GMT -5
Is it possible he might have known a couple of weeks ago or so that he might be suspended? That may have led to his bout of wildness the last couple of games. Or he could've been tiring and just over-throwing a bit.
Either way it sounds like this drug didn't really enhance his performance, we don't know for sure, which could be important to a hard thrower like Kopech.
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Post by grmoore27 on Jul 17, 2015 10:02:20 GMT -5
Is it possible he might have known a couple of weeks ago or so that he might be suspended? That may have led to his bout of wildness the last couple of games. Or he could've been tiring and just over-throwing a bit. Either way it sounds like this drug didn't really enhance his performance, we don't know for sure, which could be important to a hard thrower like Kopech. |
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Post by grmoore27 on Jul 17, 2015 10:02:56 GMT -5
Its also the least helpful form of communication because it's not genuine Yeah, apparently you're of the mind that this forum is the ideal venue to teach (preach?) "non-violent communication." But, it isn't. How about lightening up and dropping it? |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 17, 2015 10:04:46 GMT -5
Is it possible he might have known a couple of weeks ago or so that he might be suspended? That may have led to his bout of wildness the last couple of games. Or he could've been tiring and just over-throwing a bit. Either way it sounds like this drug didn't really enhance his performance, we don't know for sure, which could be important to a hard thrower like Kopech. In his statement on the suspension, he says they appealed, so you're on to something, I think. |
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Post by grmoore27 on Jul 17, 2015 10:07:58 GMT -5
Yeah, apparently you're of the mind that this forum is the ideal venue to teach (preach?) "non-violent communication." But, it isn't. How about lightening up and dropping it? What are u talking about. My main point was responding to a sarcastic comment that made non sense so I merely pointed out that the comment made no sense. I'm not preaching non violence. Not sure what violence or the lack thereof has anything to do with what I said. Your comment is puzzling and had nothing to do with what I'm talking about. But I will take ur advise and drop it because so far all the response I got have been rather strange |
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Post by jrffam05 on Jul 17, 2015 10:21:05 GMT -5
The timing of this is suspicious with the staffs trip to see Greenville...
This sucks, but I'm not really worried about it long term. From what I read, I've come to the uninformed opinion that is was an accident in legal supplement uses. I have a theory that young pitchers don't necessarily need game experience as much as they need reps, so hopefully Kopech could still use his time off to continue to develop. Unless I hears reports otherwise, this hasn't changed my opinion on him.
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Post by raftsox on Jul 17, 2015 10:48:22 GMT -5
Could be worse. I cut guys more slack on stimulants than I do on steroids. Especially a low level stimulant like this that can be purchased at GNC. I'm admittedly forgiving to a fault, but as soon as I read a little about this drug, it looked like he took a bad supplement or something. My guess is that this likely less reflects poor decision-making than that it reflects a lack of awareness/care. Still not a good thing, but not the same thing as Miguel Pena getting suspended multiple times for pot, for example. Most likely something in one of those highly caffeinated "fat burner" supplements, maybe even unlisted under the "proprietary blend" ingredients. There was a football player many years ago suspended for a similar situation (maybe Ironhead heyward?, I forget who) that afterwards advocated all athletes keep each bottle of whatever supplement they're using and a few servings in each just for this particular situation. That way they would have grounds to fight suspension on unlisted substances. |
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