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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 16:21:28 GMT -5
We're going to have to pay the piper and eat some cash but yeah, we definitely need to trade Hanley, Sandoval and Porcello. Those three represent nearly 1/4 BILLION dollars in payroll over the next four seasons. You can't have that much dead money on your books and hope to compete.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Aug 18, 2015 17:07:09 GMT -5
We're going to have to pay the piper and eat some cash but yeah, we definitely need to trade Hanley, Sandoval and Porcello. Those three represent nearly 1/4 BILLION dollars in payroll over the next four seasons. You can't have that much dead money on your books and hope to compete. I'm afraid getting rid of all 3 will be highly impossible. We need to pick our "poison" and that word is probably a good one. Porcello will never be a $20 million pitcher, but I do believe he will come back next year a be, at the least, decent. Sandoval HAS played an OK third before and third is a tough spot to find a replacement. I think he too will be better next year (.270/.325/.425). Hanley is the one I have no idea what to do with. There are no great solutions. IMO if he stays, he would have to play a position (and who knows if Papi will call it quits after 2016), and of the choices.....I think he may hurt us the least at 3rd. We can't be sure Ortiz is out of the picture in 2017....so then what? Sandoval or Hanley needs to play 3rd, and the other moved. Don't keep them both. THAT is a lot of DEAD MONEY!
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Post by jmei on Aug 18, 2015 17:09:53 GMT -5
We're going to have to pay the piper and eat some cash but yeah, we definitely need to trade Hanley, Sandoval and Porcello. Those three represent nearly 1/4 BILLION dollars in payroll over the next four seasons. You can't have that much dead money on your books and hope to compete. The operative question is to figure out how much you think those guys are going to be worth going forward and then seeing if any team out there is willing to assume more of their contracts than that. Like all trades, the answer is always going to be "it depends," and the attitude of "you have to trade them no matter what the return" is likely a mistaken one.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2015 17:20:01 GMT -5
We're going to have to pay the piper and eat some cash but yeah, we definitely need to trade Hanley, Sandoval and Porcello. Those three represent nearly 1/4 BILLION dollars in payroll over the next four seasons. You can't have that much dead money on your books and hope to compete. I'm afraid getting rid of all 3 will be highly impossible. We need to pick our "poison" and that word is probably a good one. Porcello will never be a $20 million pitcher, but I do believe he will come back next year a be, at the least, decent. Sandoval HAS played an OK third before and third is a tough spot to find a replacement. I think he too will be better next year (.270/.325/.425). Hanley is the one I have no idea what to do with. There are no great solutions. IMO if he stays, he would have to play a position (and who knows if Papi will call it quits after 2016), and of the choices.....I think he may hurt us the least at 3rd. We can't be sure Ortiz is out of the picture in 2017....so then what? Sandoval or Hanley needs to play 3rd, and the other moved. Don't keep them both. THAT is a lot of DEAD MONEY! So you don't move them and possibly wind up with another combined -2 fWAR next season? Do we just not try to win to keep them on the 25 man roster? That's a lot of dead roster spots. I mean they're not even just dead roster spots. They're worse than dead this year.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Aug 18, 2015 17:34:45 GMT -5
I'm afraid getting rid of all 3 will be highly impossible. We need to pick our "poison" and that word is probably a good one. Porcello will never be a $20 million pitcher, but I do believe he will come back next year a be, at the least, decent. Sandoval HAS played an OK third before and third is a tough spot to find a replacement. I think he too will be better next year (.270/.325/.425). Hanley is the one I have no idea what to do with. There are no great solutions. IMO if he stays, he would have to play a position (and who knows if Papi will call it quits after 2016), and of the choices.....I think he may hurt us the least at 3rd. We can't be sure Ortiz is out of the picture in 2017....so then what? Sandoval or Hanley needs to play 3rd, and the other moved. Don't keep them both. THAT is a lot of DEAD MONEY! So you don't move them and possibly wind up with another combined -2 fWAR next season? Do we just not try to win to keep them on the 25 man roster? That's a lot of dead roster spots. I mean they're not even just dead roster spots. They're worse than dead this year. I with you about moving them, I just wonder who would take them off hands. Paying 75% of their salaries is always going to come back and bite us. There is relief and there is RELIEF. Certainly those 3 guys have sent us up a river without a paddle this season. I do think we need to move either Sandoval or Ramirez. I'm voting on moving Hanley for sure.
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Post by daltonjones on Aug 18, 2015 17:58:08 GMT -5
My preferred option was not given:
Convince Big Papi that he is entitled to go out with a winner, and use Hanley as DH next year.
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Post by jmei on Aug 18, 2015 18:04:50 GMT -5
I'm afraid getting rid of all 3 will be highly impossible. We need to pick our "poison" and that word is probably a good one. Porcello will never be a $20 million pitcher, but I do believe he will come back next year a be, at the least, decent. Sandoval HAS played an OK third before and third is a tough spot to find a replacement. I think he too will be better next year (.270/.325/.425). Hanley is the one I have no idea what to do with. There are no great solutions. IMO if he stays, he would have to play a position (and who knows if Papi will call it quits after 2016), and of the choices.....I think he may hurt us the least at 3rd. We can't be sure Ortiz is out of the picture in 2017....so then what? Sandoval or Hanley needs to play 3rd, and the other moved. Don't keep them both. THAT is a lot of DEAD MONEY! So you don't move them and possibly wind up with another combined -2 fWAR next season? Do we just not try to win to keep them on the 25 man roster? That's a lot of dead roster spots. I mean they're not even just dead roster spots. They're worse than dead this year. The odds that they are as bad next year as they were this year are very low. For every Allen Craig, there's a Mark Melancon or Edgar Rentaria.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 18:07:27 GMT -5
I love how people bag on Papi. The man's getting paid $16 million to put up an OPS of .857 Meanwhile, Hanley's getting paid $22 million to put up an OPS of .752. Given his contract, we'd have trade suitors for Papi every day and twice on Sunday. Not so with Hanley. If anything, the entire baseball world is laughing at us for inking that deal, along with those of Pablo and Porcello.
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Post by daltonjones on Aug 18, 2015 18:36:23 GMT -5
"Who's the leader of the club..." that totally quit on three different managers in four years?
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2015 19:44:28 GMT -5
It is freaking pathetic that Hanley is getting paid $22 million a year, which is about 6 million more than Papi ever got paid to be a much worse DH than Papi has ever been.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 19:58:26 GMT -5
It is freaking pathetic that Hanley is getting paid $22 million a year, which is about 6 million more than Papi ever got paid to be a much worse DH than Papi has ever been. I'm hoping that you merely misspoke. Along with Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez, David Ortiz is one of the three best DHs in the 40+ year history of the DH. Seriously, for $16 million, what other realistic possibility would you rather have at the position?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Aug 18, 2015 20:03:15 GMT -5
It is freaking pathetic that Hanley is getting paid $22 million a year, which is about 6 million more than Papi ever got paid to be a much worse DH than Papi has ever been. I'm hoping that you merely misspoke. Along with Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez, David Ortiz is one of the three best DHs in the 40+ year history of the DH. Seriously, for $16 million, what other realistic possibility would you rather have at the position? Youre misreading his post
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Post by carmenfanzone on Aug 18, 2015 20:27:52 GMT -5
Hanley to third. He has played at short his entire career and couldn't possibly be as bas at third as he is in left. Could he? Panda to first where he has at least played a little during his major league career.
Trading either of them this offseason and you would be doing so while their value is at an all time low.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2015 20:51:23 GMT -5
It is freaking pathetic that Hanley is getting paid $22 million a year, which is about 6 million more than Papi ever got paid to be a much worse DH than Papi has ever been. I'm hoping that you merely misspoke. Along with Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez, David Ortiz is one of the three best DHs in the 40+ year history of the DH. Seriously, for $16 million, what other realistic possibility would you rather have at the position? My complaint is Hanley getting $22 million to be a DH, not a complaint about Papi.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 20:54:25 GMT -5
I'm hoping that you merely misspoke. Along with Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez, David Ortiz is one of the three best DHs in the 40+ year history of the DH. Seriously, for $16 million, what other realistic possibility would you rather have at the position? My complaint is Hanley getting $22 million to be a DH, not a complaint about Papi. Gotcha.
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Post by burythehammer on Aug 19, 2015 9:14:32 GMT -5
One argument for not trading them is that he's very likely to be worth his contract once Papi retires and he becomes the full-time DH. His career numbers as a PH and DH are great, suggesting he has the skill to sit and not get cold What it suggests is that he has 150 PA combined as a DH/PH.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 19, 2015 14:07:03 GMT -5
One argument for not trading them is that he's very likely to be worth his contract once Papi retires and he becomes the full-time DH. His career numbers as a PH and DH are great, suggesting he has the skill to sit and not get cold What it suggests is that he has 150 PA combined as a DH/PH. Maybe it would have been clearer had I said "suggests he may have the skill," but I thought that the "may" is implied by the "suggests." Revised that way, it's 100% correct, and to think that it's not is to partake of an all-too-common misunderstandings of statistics. Samples that are too small to draw a reliable conclusion from are nevertheless far from meaningless.
If you've been great in 137 PA as a DH/PH, it makes it more likelier that you have that skill, than if you had performed precisely as expected. Our degree of confidence that you actually have the skill is a function both of the sample size and the divergence from expectation. In this case, the divergence is great enough to give a decent amount of credence to the possibility that he'd be very good in the role.
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Post by burythehammer on Aug 19, 2015 14:37:59 GMT -5
Even if that were true, and I stress if, the occasional PH appearance/start at DH interspersed throughout a ten year career is a lot different than doing what David Ortiz does, DHing day in and day out and just about never seeing the field.
The reason Hanley is a good candidate to DH is that he's a very good hitter who's been a terrible fielder at every position he's ever played, and likely getting worse. That's the only reason and it's a pretty good one.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 19, 2015 16:11:33 GMT -5
"Who's the leader of the club..." that totally quit on three different managers in four years? Who quit? Did they refuse to suit up and play, or just pout and mope about when they got out to their respective positions? Did they stop swinging at strikes, just amble up to the plate with bat on shoulder and then amble back to the dugout three pitches later with nary a swing? What is this quitting you witnessed? Please give explicit examples — let's out those nameless no-good so and so's.
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Post by jdb on Aug 19, 2015 17:37:05 GMT -5
I've brought up the possibility with Pablo but would you be willing to trade Hanley for Votto? Does Dom try to put his stamp on the team by basically doing a reverse Kinsler/Fielder trade? Votto's a risk but according to fangraphs he has consistently put up $40 million a year of value and I think he'll be able to hit and get on base into his upper 30's.
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Post by arzjake on Aug 19, 2015 18:17:27 GMT -5
DD has big plans for HR, Sandoval and yes, ACraig!
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 19, 2015 21:10:36 GMT -5
Is Hanley really as good as advertised on offense? Outside of the first month of this session, what has he done offensively? JBJ had more extra base hits in one game than Hanley has had since the start of the second half.
Nagging injuries and laziness are both part of the Hanley package and I don't think either change when he becomes a full time DH.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 21:17:39 GMT -5
What again was the justification for signing BOTH Hanley AND Pablo?
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Post by jmei on Aug 19, 2015 21:20:15 GMT -5
Is Hanley really as good as advertised on offense? Outside of the first month of this session, what has he done offensively? Career 130 wRC+ hitter (.297/.368/.496), including a 138 wRC+ between 2013 and the present (.292/.356/.497). That latter mark makes him the 18th-best qualified hitter in the major leagues over that time.
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Post by blizzards39 on Aug 20, 2015 0:07:43 GMT -5
I would have a talk with him and see where his head is. Smartest thing written in this thread. Find out what Hanley wants to do. He may tell you that he is going to work all off-season to get better in LF (or he isn't). He may tell you that he would rather play 3B (or 1B) next year. For all the buttkissing being done publicly, the organization is going to have to tell Hanley what they really think about his defense, and Hanley is going to have to communicate what he thinks about his defense (and what he plans to do about it). I truly believe that his defensive struggles have impacted him offensively, so the best way to maximize his offense is to get him and the team on the same page with respect to his defense. I think the two best options are to keep him in LF or move him to 3B (in which case the team ought to trade Sandoval for pitching). I think 1B is even more of a disaster waiting to happen. I assume next year's game plan is for Hanley to play 30-40 games at DH (I assume 2016 will be Ortiz's final year before he retires) and 100-110 games in LF/3B, and it will become standard to sub him out after he bats in the final third of the game. In 2017, he becomes the full-time DH. Exactly. In no way can he be the full time LF and not a chance in hell I want him at 1B. 3B is really the only full time option as far as I see it.
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