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HELP WANTED Starting Pitching
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Post by jluna09 on Dec 4, 2012 21:15:20 GMT -5
I am scared for the direction of this team in the next 3 seasons. I firmly believe we are heading in the wrong direction again after our most recent payroll bailout that would make General Motors blush. Baseball is changing, the league we have known and watched the past 10-15 years no longer exists. Baseball is a sport dominated by pitching yet we continue to throw money at "sexy" offensive talent. WE WILL NOT BE RELEVANT AGAIN UNTIL WE HAVE A TOP 10 STARTING ROTATION AND BULLPEN. Hitters can not be valued to the same extent they have been in the past, they simply are not as effective in today's game due to the substantial increase in the quality of pitching in the new modern game. So far this off season we've spent 80 million on offense when we ranked 27th last year in ERA and quality starts. I would look up our bullpen ranking but I've already wasted too many seconds of my life on that dumpster fire. In 2004 we won a championship based on the motto pitching and defense, not doubles and dingers.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 4, 2012 21:44:43 GMT -5
Since this is a Trade Proposal Sub-Forum, do you have anything to offer in that regard? Do you propose any specific measures to take "until we are relevant again" and have a "top ten starting rotation and bullpen"?
Or does trading Portland and Salem for Felix do it for you?
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Post by jluna09 on Dec 4, 2012 21:56:34 GMT -5
Quick glance, jimenez would be a hell of a bullpen arm, his ratios havent changed despite the sharp rise in his era, also held hitters to a .205 avr from pitch 16-30 which is a stat you live to see in a starter turned reliever. Ian kennedy wouldn't be a bad place to look for your #3 or 4 and could come at a discount with the depth the diamondbacks have at starter.
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Post by jluna09 on Dec 4, 2012 21:58:02 GMT -5
Sorry i'm in the middle of studying for finals, I'll have a full staff for the board to review this weekend
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Post by jmei on Dec 4, 2012 22:19:51 GMT -5
You know, if you just want to vent, we have a throwdown forum for that very purpose. A post in the trade proposals subforum should, you know, have a trade proposal or two.
Also, the 2012 Red Sox ranked 19th in the league with a 3.88 ERA and 20th with a 3.91 FIP.
Finally, the idea of trading for Ubaldo Jimenez and converting him to a reliever is a bad one for more than a few reasons. Think about it and you should be able to figure out why.
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Post by jluna09 on Dec 4, 2012 22:32:24 GMT -5
If you could please clarify your reasoning I would appreciate it. His arm still has value i believe in short stints he just takes some time to get warmed up. My logic behind the move is for what ever reason he has continued to dominate opponents between pitches 25-50 as hitters post a .205 batting avr and his strike out numbers double. I apoligize if this is in the wrong thread and i will submit trade proposals as needed, I just believe we need an organizational mentality shift how we evaluate or future transactions
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Post by jluna09 on Dec 5, 2012 1:06:44 GMT -5
Ellsbury for Teherán wouldn't suck for us either
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Post by izzy on Dec 5, 2012 5:23:15 GMT -5
In 2004 we won a championship based on the motto pitching and defense, not doubles and dingers. We led the league in runs scored by over 50 runs in 2004. We also led the league in doubles. Pitching was very solid too but we won a lot of games with our bats. |
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Post by honkbal on Dec 5, 2012 10:58:11 GMT -5
Here, I made you a list of pitchers who it is reasonable to think might be an upgrade to Lester and Buchholz at the top of the Red Sox rotation. Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, Cole Hamels, Justin Verlander, Felix Hernandez, Clayton Kershaw, Jered Weaver, C.C. Sabathia, James Shields, David Price, Jeremy Hellickson, Matt Moore, Matt Cain, Madison Bumgarner, Johnny Cueto, Gio Gonzalez, Jordan Zimmermann, Stephen Strasburg, Chris Sale, Adam Wainwright, R.A. Dickey. Let me narrow it down for you though; obviously some of those guys won't be available. here are the players on that list who might be available by trade or free agency in the next two+ years. (Basically everyone who isn't signed beyond 2015. And Cliff Lee.) Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, Justin Verlander, Felix Hernandez, Clayton Kershaw, James Shields, David Price, Jeremy Hellickson, Jordan Zimmerman, Johnny Cueto, Adam Wainwright, and R.A. Dickey. Of those: Lee and Halladay are only available if the Phillies fall apart this year. Verlander and Kershaw are all but certain to extend with their teams. The Rays probably won't trade within the division unless we overpay significantly (Price is the only one who might be worth it in free agency. You can sign him in for 2016.) Zimmerman is under team control for three more years, the Nats have money, and he still isn't that well established. Cueto is on a reasonable contract for the next three years and has shown a willingness to extend. Wainwright hasn't proved he's recovered from injury and is currently talking extension with the Cardinals. Which leaves two guys. Felix. Who is talking about an extension with the Mariners right now and would cost the farm for two years. And R.A. Dickey. I'd be up for trading Ellsbury and Salty to  for prospects and flipping them to the Mets for Dickey. Or just signing mid-rotation guys to short money and hoping internal options develop. |
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Post by larrycook on Dec 5, 2012 13:53:48 GMT -5
I'd be up for trading Ellsbury and Salty to for prospects and flipping them to the Mets for Dickey. Or just signing mid-rotation guys to short money and hoping internal options develop. Dickey, Niese and Floyd appear ro be available via trade. Should Cherrington decide to go after them it's alomst a given that he will have to part with some combination of catcher, outfielder, relievers and prospects. |
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Post by wildcardwillie on Dec 5, 2012 14:58:08 GMT -5
would ellsbury & salty be enough for 2 of the 3 out of Dickey, Niese, Or Ike Davis
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Post by jmei on Dec 5, 2012 15:06:34 GMT -5
With wisdom beyond his 65 years, Sandy Alderson would respond to that offer with a swift "LOL".
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Post by wildcardwillie on Dec 5, 2012 16:16:51 GMT -5
Dickey is 38 i mean how much can you expect for that guy I understand hes a Knuckle baller and will last longer but geez. What about throwing in Brentz
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 5, 2012 16:21:33 GMT -5
Niese and Davis definitely interest me, but where would Davis fit now that Napoli is here? Nowhere. We have 4 catchers if Ike is at 1B.
Maybe Ells + Lavarnway for Niese + Davis. Then you trade Salty in another deal. That leaves you with Napoli/Ross as catchers, Davis at 1B, and Napoli would move to DH at the end of Ortiz's contract. Idk seems a bit far fetched though I'm a huge believer in Ike's talent.
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Post by jmei on Dec 5, 2012 17:01:59 GMT -5
Dickey is 38 i mean how much can you expect for that guy I understand hes a Knuckle baller and will last longer but geez. What about throwing in Brentz Ellsbury and Dickey probably have similar trade value at the moment. Ellsbury is younger but Dickey is (a) coming off a better season and (b) more amenable to an extension. Saltalamacchia has some trade value but much, much less than either Niese or Davis. Davis is also blocked at 1B by Napoli, so he probably wouldn't be a target in any discussions with the Mets. Honestly, I have no idea why the Mets would be interested in Ellsbury or Saltalamacchia at all. They're both one-year rentals and the Mets aren't going to contend next year, which is the very reason why Dickey is seemingly available. I just don't see a match with them unless Boston also takes on Johan Santana's contract, and even then the Mets are more likely to ask for prospects than guys like Ellsbury/Saltalamacchia. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 18:35:58 GMT -5
the mets are a small-market team and are rebuilding. they won't take ellsbury, given the money he will be expecting after next season. a few realistic options are: 1. trade salty for a mediocre starter, such as Gavin Floyd 2. trade salty for a pitching prospect 3. trade salty and ells for a very good starter 4. trade salty and ells for a package of good prospects 5. trade ellsbury for a average/above-average starter 6. trade ellsbury for a great pitching prospect i would NOT trade for felix hernandez. it will take the ENTIRE FARM SYSTEM to get him, and that is not worth is for a guy who has never pitched in a high-pressure environment such as boston and is under team control for only 2 more years. the sox are rebuilding and SHOULD NOT trade for felix hernandez. DON'T TRADE FOR KING FELIX! i WOULD NOT trade for dickey either, as he will require a package of prospects as well, and that is not worth it for knuckle-ball pitcher WHO IS 38. DO NOT TRADE FOR DICKEY! If everyone wants to have "King Felix", instead of trading for him, we can start calling Doubront "King Felix"  |
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Post by wildcardwillie on Dec 6, 2012 10:10:30 GMT -5
Move Napoli to catcher and play Davis at first, that will get another Left handed bat in the line up and have no idea about this but since hes young have ike take some in lf and see if hes any good there every once in a while
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Post by wildcardwillie on Dec 6, 2012 10:14:36 GMT -5
I dont know how everyone else feels but i find if ellsbury and Dickey have similar value I would rather have the guy that can impact the game every day rather than every 5. but the way its been going Dickey may play in more games than Ellsbury  |
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Post by larrycook on Dec 6, 2012 14:40:50 GMT -5
I dont know how everyone else feels but i find if ellsbury and Dickey have similar value I would rather have the guy that can impact the game every day rather than every 5. but the way its been going Dickey may play in more games than Ellsbury I happen to think that 20 plus game winner last season is worth much more than a frequently injured OF and I would not blame the Mets for asking for more. The pitchers the Mets have that I really like are Harvey and Wheeler. So a package of Ellsbury, Salty, Miller, Morales, Rubby, Brentz and Webster for those two is what I would offer. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2012 14:54:34 GMT -5
that would be giving up the entire farm system in addition to established big leaguers for a pitcher who has not even pitched in the big leagues yet and a pitcher who is yet to pitch a whole season in the bigs. don't get me wrong, harvey and wheeler probably will both be great, but that would be grossly overpaying for them. it would not be worth it. the mets are a small market team and probably won't trade them anyway.
and what will that leave the red sox with? not much at all
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 6, 2012 15:05:04 GMT -5
I dont know how everyone else feels but i find if ellsbury and Dickey have similar value I would rather have the guy that can impact the game every day rather than every 5. but the way its been going Dickey may play in more games than Ellsbury I happen to think that 20 plus game winner last season is worth much more than a frequently injured OF and I would not blame the Mets for asking for more. The pitchers the Mets have that I really like are Harvey and Wheeler. So a package of Ellsbury, Salty, Miller, Morales, Rubby, Brentz and Webster for those two is what I would offer. What, no Bogarts? How will they be able to pll it off? |
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Post by larrycook on Dec 7, 2012 14:01:21 GMT -5
that would be giving up the entire farm system in addition to established big leaguers for a pitcher who has not even pitched in the big leagues yet and a pitcher who is yet to pitch a whole season in the bigs. don't get me wrong, harvey and wheeler probably will both be great, but that would be grossly overpaying for them. it would not be worth it. the mets are a small market team and probably won't trade them anyway. and what will that leave the red sox with? not much at all Seems steep, you have to give up quality to get quality. Salty and Ellsbury are one year players and we have replacements signed already. Not sure if Webster and Rubby have the ceiling that Harvey and Webster have so throwing in Ellsbury and Salty evens the pot. Brentz makes it a no brainer for the Mets. Lester Buchholz Harvey Doubront Lackey With Morales the swing starter and Wheeler at Pawtucket. |
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Post by honkbal on Dec 7, 2012 14:26:13 GMT -5
Why are the Mets giving up pre-arb pitchers? Why would either team be interested in trading pitching prospects for pitching prospects?
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 7, 2012 14:51:12 GMT -5
Ummmmm.... am i the only one that think the Mets would laugh at the Sox for proposing that?
Harvey and Wheeler are the most valuable assets in the deal and the Sox get BOTH of them. Not best players, valuable assets.
Ellsbury is next to worthless for the Mets and the whole "they can flip him argument is dumb". They don't need him for next year as they won't compete. They certainly won't compete without Harvey in the rotation.
Miller and Moralez fall into the category of "adding names to a trade to fill it with quantity so it looks better, but its really just crap"
Brentz, Ruby and Webster are solid prospects, but Harvey and Wheeler are elite level prospects.
A rebuilding team like the Mets doesn't trade 2 potential front line starters who are cost controlled and on the doorstep (one in the door w/ positive results) for 3 solid prospects, 2 so-so replacable bullpen arms who've already bounced around the league and an injury laden CF in his contract year who wants a massive contract.
Not to completely shit all over this thread, but the Mets also have no need to trade a young cost controlled first baseman with huge power potential (and production). That would be Ike Davis.
Any trade proposals involving the Mets and Jacoby Ellsbury need to be shelved.
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Post by jmei on Dec 7, 2012 18:51:15 GMT -5
The Reds need a center fielder/leadoff hitter. Ellsbury for Homer Bailey or Mike Leake? Boston would probably need to include other players (bullpen pieces? Prospects? Reds are set at catcher, so Saltalamacchia/Lavarnway wouldn't be of interest) with Bailey. Leake might be more available-- he might be out of a rotation spot anyways. He has decent strikeout and walk rates but gives up lots of home runs.
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for prospects and flipping them to the Mets for Dickey. Or just signing mid-rotation guys to short money and hoping internal options develop.
