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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2015 0:09:02 GMT -5
Is that 4 prospective 40 HR guys on that team? Not to mention balanced. Two left handed bats in Schwarber and Rizzo and two right handed bats in Bryant and Soler. All of them, plus Castro, Russell and Baez, under team control for at least the next five seasons. Once he gets Arrieta extended, Theo's on auto pilot. And if the Cubs emerge with David Price this winter, look out. A rotation that contains Price, Arrietta, and Lester at the top, with that offense, makes for a team capable of sustained success for quite awhile. The Cubs might actually have 5 guys capable of mashing 40 homers between Bryant, Rizzo, Schwarber, Soler, and Baez. The Cubs did the rebuilding thing the right way. No short cuts. No BS to the fans. I wonder what would things have been like had Theo been afforded that luxury in Boston, instead of doing battle with Lucchino, and having to deal with the perception that rebuilding can never happen in Boston. Too bad Lucchino stepped aside in 2015, rather than 2010. I like Dombrowski and think Cherington did some very good things in building the farm system and preserving it, but I'll always wonder what Theo would have done had he stayed and did things his way if he had the latitude that Dombrowski now has.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 1:18:44 GMT -5
Not to mention balanced. Two left handed bats in Schwarber and Rizzo and two right handed bats in Bryant and Soler. All of them, plus Castro, Russell and Baez, under team control for at least the next five seasons. Once he gets Arrieta extended, Theo's on auto pilot. And if the Cubs emerge with David Price this winter, look out. A rotation that contains Price, Arrietta, and Lester at the top, with that offense, makes for a team capable of sustained success for quite awhile. The Cubs might actually have 5 guys capable of mashing 40 homers between Bryant, Rizzo, Schwarber, Soler, and Baez. The Cubs did the rebuilding thing the right way. No short cuts. No BS to the fans. I wonder what would things have been like had Theo been afforded that luxury in Boston, instead of doing battle with Lucchino, and having to deal with the perception that rebuilding can never happen in Boston. Too bad Lucchino stepped aside in 2015, rather than 2010. I like Dombrowski and think Cherington did some very good things in building the farm system and preserving it, but I'll always wonder what Theo would have done had he stayed and did things his way if he had the latitude that Dombrowski now has. I can't agree enough with everything you've said. It's easy to think about what could have been. That being said, I'm happy for Theo. He left on his terms. He didn't have to deal with the whole Bobby V. fiasco or finishing last three out of four seasons. Sure, he missed out on 2013. But, a World Series with the Cubs - whether this year or next - would establish Theo as one of the game's all-time great team architects.
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Post by bluechip on Oct 14, 2015 6:15:28 GMT -5
Not to mention balanced. Two left handed bats in Schwarber and Rizzo and two right handed bats in Bryant and Soler. All of them, plus Castro, Russell and Baez, under team control for at least the next five seasons. Once he gets Arrieta extended, Theo's on auto pilot. And if the Cubs emerge with David Price this winter, look out. A rotation that contains Price, Arrietta, and Lester at the top, with that offense, makes for a team capable of sustained success for quite awhile. The Cubs might actually have 5 guys capable of mashing 40 homers between Bryant, Rizzo, Schwarber, Soler, and Baez. The Cubs did the rebuilding thing the right way. No short cuts. No BS to the fans. I wonder what would things have been like had Theo been afforded that luxury in Boston, instead of doing battle with Lucchino, and having to deal with the perception that rebuilding can never happen in Boston. Too bad Lucchino stepped aside in 2015, rather than 2010. I like Dombrowski and think Cherington did some very good things in building the farm system and preserving it, but I'll always wonder what Theo would have done had he stayed and did things his way if he had the latitude that Dombrowski now has. Theo has done a good job in Chicago. Though, I think you are being a little revisionist with how things ended in Boston. It is very easy to give Theo all of the credit for all the good things that happened when he was here, and Larry all the blame for all of the bad things. Besides I am not sure what you mean by doing things the "right way." If there is such a thing as a "short cut" why does the Cubs signing of Lester not qualify?
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 14, 2015 6:41:50 GMT -5
And if the Cubs emerge with David Price this winter, look out. A rotation that contains Price, Arrietta, and Lester at the top, with that offense, makes for a team capable of sustained success for quite awhile. The Cubs might actually have 5 guys capable of mashing 40 homers between Bryant, Rizzo, Schwarber, Soler, and Baez. The Cubs did the rebuilding thing the right way. No short cuts. No BS to the fans. I wonder what would things have been like had Theo been afforded that luxury in Boston, instead of doing battle with Lucchino, and having to deal with the perception that rebuilding can never happen in Boston. Too bad Lucchino stepped aside in 2015, rather than 2010. I like Dombrowski and think Cherington did some very good things in building the farm system and preserving it, but I'll always wonder what Theo would have done had he stayed and did things his way if he had the latitude that Dombrowski now has. Theo has done a good job in Chicago. Though, I think you are being a little revisionist with how things ended in Boston. It is very easy to give Theo all of the credit for all the good things that happened when he was here, and Larry all the blame for all of the bad things. Besides I am not sure what you mean by doing things the "right way." If there is such a thing as a "short cut" why does the Cubs signing of Lester not qualify? Yes. He may have just learned from his mistakes.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 14, 2015 11:17:51 GMT -5
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2015 13:17:22 GMT -5
And if the Cubs emerge with David Price this winter, look out. A rotation that contains Price, Arrietta, and Lester at the top, with that offense, makes for a team capable of sustained success for quite awhile. The Cubs might actually have 5 guys capable of mashing 40 homers between Bryant, Rizzo, Schwarber, Soler, and Baez. The Cubs did the rebuilding thing the right way. No short cuts. No BS to the fans. I wonder what would things have been like had Theo been afforded that luxury in Boston, instead of doing battle with Lucchino, and having to deal with the perception that rebuilding can never happen in Boston. Too bad Lucchino stepped aside in 2015, rather than 2010. I like Dombrowski and think Cherington did some very good things in building the farm system and preserving it, but I'll always wonder what Theo would have done had he stayed and did things his way if he had the latitude that Dombrowski now has. Theo has done a good job in Chicago. Though, I think you are being a little revisionist with how things ended in Boston. It is very easy to give Theo all of the credit for all the good things that happened when he was here, and Larry all the blame for all of the bad things. Besides I am not sure what you mean by doing things the "right way." If there is such a thing as a "short cut" why does the Cubs signing of Lester not qualify? The Cubs didn't sign Lester until they were ready to supplement their young core, when they were ready to be a winning team. The last few years in Chicago were all about stockpiling prospects. They didn't sign a bunch of free agents, clog up the payroll with a bunch of false promises. They waited until they were in position. They're there now. I'm not trying to turn this into a Lucchino bad cop/Theo good cop argument. My main point is that I've read enough things about Theo to have a pretty good idea of how he likes to build his team. Based on everything we have read or heard, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Theo and Lucchino always butted heads because the business of baseball demands winning baseball at nearly all times or at least the illusion of the chance of winning baseball. We all know why he left the first time around. Lucchino, at a meeting, was part of the thought process in which a "down" season in which you take one step back to take two steps forward was too damaging to the Sox financially and they weren't going to be honest with the fanbase about the need for patience. This drove Theo to leave in his monkey suit. It's pretty well documented in Feeding the Monster. Theo said he gave into it toward the end and he took the blame for it. He didn't want to fight the good fight anymore. He's in a totally different situation in Chicago. Ricketts gave him carte blanche to build the team the way he sees fit and he did so, allowing him the patience and time. The Cubs have been awful the first three years of Theo's tenure, but he never BSed the fans or went for a quick fix. And I get the feeling that Theo is doing EXACTLY what he wanted to do. I've certainly haven't read otherwise. Now he has his team in position where they are blessed with so much young talent, they can afford to sign a Jon Lester, and they can afford to add a David Price as well. My feeling is that Lackey, Crawford, and Gonzalez never would have been acquired if Theo had his druthers. I have no doubt that Theo like Gonzo, but I have little doubt he was enamored with Rizzo more than Gonzo. In a vacuum, it can be hard to separate the actions of the GM from his true self philosophy. For example, Dave Dombrowski made a lot of moves he probably wouldn't make here because the pressure was always on him to win and the current day was all that mattered, and the future didn't. That definitely swayed the moves he made. I don't think Dombrowski will be the same GM he was for the Tigers. I believe his philosophy will be closer to his truer philosophy - the one he employed with the Marlins and Expos. Likewise, I think Cashman has made plenty of moves he wouldn't otherwise if not for the Steinbrenners. I think Dombrowski will have much more latitude than Theo ever had, and I'm encouraged that he hasn't tried to blow everything up. As far as the front office, he has kept everything that works well, and has tried to improve things that need improving, so I've been impressed thus far by DDO. We'll see how he operates in the trade market.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2015 13:19:33 GMT -5
I'm going to guess there won't be an Oct 21st headline saying they swept Miami, though. There could be an early Nov headline saying they won the World Series, though. It wouldn't shock me, and if that happens, I would think that might cement Theo's place into the Hall of Fame. And the thing about the Cubs, though, whether they win or not, is that they should be good for quite awhile. This isn't a one hit wonder.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Oct 14, 2015 15:51:50 GMT -5
Theo has done a good job in Chicago. Though, I think you are being a little revisionist with how things ended in Boston. It is very easy to give Theo all of the credit for all the good things that happened when he was here, and Larry all the blame for all of the bad things. Besides I am not sure what you mean by doing things the "right way." If there is such a thing as a "short cut" why does the Cubs signing of Lester not qualify? The Cubs didn't sign Lester until they were ready to supplement their young core, when they were ready to be a winning team. The last few years in Chicago were all about stockpiling prospects. They didn't sign a bunch of free agents, clog up the payroll with a bunch of false promises. They waited until they were in position. They're there now. I'm not trying to turn this into a Lucchino bad cop/Theo good cop argument. My main point is that I've read enough things about Theo to have a pretty good idea of how he likes to build his team. Based on everything we have read or heard, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Theo and Lucchino always butted heads because the business of baseball demands winning baseball at nearly all times or at least the illusion of the chance of winning baseball. We all know why he left the first time around. Lucchino, at a meeting, was part of the thought process in which a "down" season in which you take one step back to take two steps forward was too damaging to the Sox financially and they weren't going to be honest with the fanbase about the need for patience. This drove Theo to leave in his monkey suit. It's pretty well documented in Feeding the Monster. Theo said he gave into it toward the end and he took the blame for it. He didn't want to fight the good fight anymore. He's in a totally different situation in Chicago. Ricketts gave him carte blanche to build the team the way he sees fit and he did so, allowing him the patience and time. The Cubs have been awful the first three years of Theo's tenure, but he never BSed the fans or went for a quick fix. And I get the feeling that Theo is doing EXACTLY what he wanted to do. I've certainly haven't read otherwise. Now he has his team in position where they are blessed with so much young talent, they can afford to sign a Jon Lester, and they can afford to add a David Price as well. My feeling is that Lackey, Crawford, and Gonzalez never would have been acquired if Theo had his druthers. I have no doubt that Theo like Gonzo, but I have little doubt he was enamored with Rizzo more than Gonzo. In a vacuum, it can be hard to separate the actions of the GM from his true self philosophy. For example, Dave Dombrowski made a lot of moves he probably wouldn't make here because the pressure was always on him to win and the current day was all that mattered, and the future didn't. That definitely swayed the moves he made. I don't think Dombrowski will be the same GM he was for the Tigers. I believe his philosophy will be closer to his truer philosophy - the one he employed with the Marlins and Expos. Likewise, I think Cashman has made plenty of moves he wouldn't otherwise if not for the Steinbrenners. I think Dombrowski will have much more latitude than Theo ever had, and I'm encouraged that he hasn't tried to blow everything up. As far as the front office, he has kept everything that works well, and has tried to improve things that need improving, so I've been impressed thus far by DDO. We'll see how he operates in the trade market. I agree with most of what you are saying here. I would add that Lester fits the pattern primarily in that no prospects were traded. It IS clear in retrospect that Theo was one of those horrible prospect hoarders. The only thing I disagree with is I think John Henry was responsible for many of the inputs you attribute to Lucchino.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2015 15:58:07 GMT -5
The Cubs didn't sign Lester until they were ready to supplement their young core, when they were ready to be a winning team. The last few years in Chicago were all about stockpiling prospects. They didn't sign a bunch of free agents, clog up the payroll with a bunch of false promises. They waited until they were in position. They're there now. I'm not trying to turn this into a Lucchino bad cop/Theo good cop argument. My main point is that I've read enough things about Theo to have a pretty good idea of how he likes to build his team. Based on everything we have read or heard, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that Theo and Lucchino always butted heads because the business of baseball demands winning baseball at nearly all times or at least the illusion of the chance of winning baseball. We all know why he left the first time around. Lucchino, at a meeting, was part of the thought process in which a "down" season in which you take one step back to take two steps forward was too damaging to the Sox financially and they weren't going to be honest with the fanbase about the need for patience. This drove Theo to leave in his monkey suit. It's pretty well documented in Feeding the Monster. Theo said he gave into it toward the end and he took the blame for it. He didn't want to fight the good fight anymore. He's in a totally different situation in Chicago. Ricketts gave him carte blanche to build the team the way he sees fit and he did so, allowing him the patience and time. The Cubs have been awful the first three years of Theo's tenure, but he never BSed the fans or went for a quick fix. And I get the feeling that Theo is doing EXACTLY what he wanted to do. I've certainly haven't read otherwise. Now he has his team in position where they are blessed with so much young talent, they can afford to sign a Jon Lester, and they can afford to add a David Price as well. My feeling is that Lackey, Crawford, and Gonzalez never would have been acquired if Theo had his druthers. I have no doubt that Theo like Gonzo, but I have little doubt he was enamored with Rizzo more than Gonzo. In a vacuum, it can be hard to separate the actions of the GM from his true self philosophy. For example, Dave Dombrowski made a lot of moves he probably wouldn't make here because the pressure was always on him to win and the current day was all that mattered, and the future didn't. That definitely swayed the moves he made. I don't think Dombrowski will be the same GM he was for the Tigers. I believe his philosophy will be closer to his truer philosophy - the one he employed with the Marlins and Expos. Likewise, I think Cashman has made plenty of moves he wouldn't otherwise if not for the Steinbrenners. I think Dombrowski will have much more latitude than Theo ever had, and I'm encouraged that he hasn't tried to blow everything up. As far as the front office, he has kept everything that works well, and has tried to improve things that need improving, so I've been impressed thus far by DDO. We'll see how he operates in the trade market. I agree with most of what you are saying here. I would add that Lester fits the pattern primarily in that no prospects were traded. It IS clear in retrospect that Theo was one of those horrible prospect hoarders. The only thing I disagree with is I think John Henry was responsible for many of the inputs you attribute to Lucchino. I'm not sure about that. I would say his issues were always with Lucchino and not John Henry. I think his issues with Lucchino are pretty well documented.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 16:02:36 GMT -5
Doesn't it really boil down to whether you'd rather have Lucchino, Dombrowski or Theo running the organization? Theo was moving up in the world. We had to choose between him and Lucchino. We chose wrong and eventually had to replace Lucchino with Dombrowski. But, wouldn't pretty much everyone here rather have Theo now than Dombrowski?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 14, 2015 16:38:05 GMT -5
Doesn't it really boil down to whether you'd rather have Lucchino, Dombrowski or Theo running the organization? Theo was moving up in the world. We had to choose between him and Lucchino. We chose wrong and eventually had to replace Lucchino with Dombrowski. But, wouldn't pretty much everyone here rather have Theo now than Dombrowski? Whether lip service or not, at the time, Theo said he thought he'd be in the Sox GM position for about 10 years and was leaving at 9 when a great opportunity presented itself. I'm not sure there really was ever a Lucchino-or-Theo decision to be made - he might have left even if Lucchino wasn't there.
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Post by mattpicard on Oct 14, 2015 17:12:20 GMT -5
Edwin absolutely crushes one into the third deck and the Rogers Centre erupts as the game is tied. Not sure there's a more fun RHH to watch hit missiles. Maybe April 2015 Hanley Ramirez?
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Post by kingofthetrill on Oct 14, 2015 17:28:51 GMT -5
I'm going to be pissed if THAT of all things is what decides this series. Toronto was probably the only team I was rooting for and for them to get cheated like this is unfortunate. Not saying that the umpires made the wrong call per the rules, but regardless of the rules you can't have a series be decided by that. It's why to this day I still don't give the Giants credit for the first Super Bowl against the Pats.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Oct 14, 2015 17:32:31 GMT -5
Martin made a huge mistake.
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 14, 2015 17:42:13 GMT -5
Wanted to give a guy I've given a lot of grief credit. Harold Reynolds new the rule and got it right. Umps got there eventually. All is well.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Oct 14, 2015 17:44:11 GMT -5
Three consecutive errors by Rangers.
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Post by soxfanatic on Oct 14, 2015 17:49:17 GMT -5
What a game!
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,434
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Post by radiohix on Oct 14, 2015 17:57:23 GMT -5
Joey Bats is a HR pimpin' god!
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Post by Smittyw on Oct 14, 2015 17:57:31 GMT -5
Well this is crazy.
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 14, 2015 17:58:21 GMT -5
Wow, no idea what the ratings are the last few days, but it's been great baseball.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 14, 2015 17:58:23 GMT -5
Looks like the circus has come to town there in Toronto...
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 14, 2015 17:59:05 GMT -5
Listening to the Blue Jays game on the radio. Joey Bat's home run call gave me the chills.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Oct 14, 2015 17:59:47 GMT -5
Wow, no idea what the ratings are the last few days, but it's been great baseball. They've been good ive heard.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 14, 2015 18:01:35 GMT -5
I'd be embarrassed if that happened at Fenway.
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Post by Smittyw on Oct 14, 2015 18:10:35 GMT -5
So much WTF.
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