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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 13, 2015 16:02:56 GMT -5
I really like JBJ and Swihart, but if we can get a true #1 by including them with a few prospects, we should absolutely consider it. Swihart along with Joe Kelly, Henry Owens and Margot for Chris Sale would be fine by me. I know Sale is good, but dang......I'd give Swihart & their choice of Miley, Owens, or Kelly,.....That said, I know they wouldn't do that, so I don't see a deal there.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 13, 2015 16:06:20 GMT -5
I know Sale is good, but dang......I'd give Swihart & their choice of Miley, Owens, or Kelly,.....That said, I know they wouldn't do that, so I don't see a deal there. With all that has been said, I'm in minority of letting Swihart and Vazquez have a full year of improving their stock. Christian needs to show he is healthy and, at least, what he was.....and Blake needs to show everyone he has the ability to become a solid defensive catcher. NEITHER should be traded! I totally believe some of you are really not understanding what we have with young Blake Swihart. You don't.....you DON"T trade a catcher with his athletic ability and offensive potential. I truly believe we will be much better next season, but I'm fine with us exploding in 2017. Some of you want it all to happen immediately and are prepared to trade anyone for a quick fix. Boy I hope Dombrowski is not into quick and temporary fixes. By the winter of 2016, Vazquez will probably be 100% and will alleviate all of the other teams' concerns to whether he can be counted on to lead their staff and catch for 130+ games. He is a valuable chip, but probably not until the middle of next summer. Swihart is going to be very good. The only question is HOW good. I would bet anyone, after pushing him this last year to lead a staff in the majors before he was even ready, he will be much MUCH better! Those of you thinking he will not even be adequate are wrong. He has the arm, the work ethic, and the ability to be a PLUS catcher.....and you want to consider throwing him to any deal that fits your fancy. Smarten up! When the White Sox have another terrible year next year, the White Sox will be much more inclined to move one Chris Sale. And that trade will be without us losing a very unique talent like Swihart. I know it is difficult for you and myself to be patient, but that is a better direction to take than believing we have to win next season. And before I forget, Dave Dombrowski......please don't even consider giving too much for a reliever like Chapman unless he signs an extension.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 13, 2015 16:15:24 GMT -5
Again, I really like Swihart. I think he is rare in what he brings, but if it takes him to get Sale we have to do that. Someone mentioned Moncada... I would not include him along with Sale... maybe not at all. I feel Sale is a top pitcher, true ace and in order to get a young team friendly contract on an ace pitcher, we will need to give up talent. Thats just how it works. If anyone thinks we are getting an ace by trading the likes of Hanley Ramirez, Marrero, Kelly, Johnson, Ball, Shaw, Hanigan, Castillo or Miley are kidding themselves. Swihart, Devers, Margot and to a lesser degree Guerra, Travis and Kopech will need to be included... maybe, likely two of these six.
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Post by joshmoody23 on Nov 13, 2015 17:09:42 GMT -5
I would move Jackie Bradley in a deal for a stud reliever. Someone along the lines of Chapman or Giles. Obviously Chapman would need to be re-signed. I believe there is a lot of quality OF on the trade market that would provide more offense than JBJ. The Sox obviously need offense and moving Bradley would allow you to keep Mookie in CF. Guys like Carlos Gonzalez, Cameron Maybin, Jay Bruce are all out there on the trade market. Even cost friendly guys like Denard Span, Rajai Davis, Chris Young could be options and all of those guys arguably provide more offense than Bradley.
I would hold on to Swihart at all costs, the kid improved so much from the time he was called up to the end of the season and he worked his tail off to do that. He will continue to work hard and we will continue to see improvements. If Vasquez had a set back, we would have Ryan Hanigan & Sandy Leon as full time starters. Dombrowski will be nervous to deal Swihart and watch him blossom into the best offensive catcher in the league. A potential all star every year.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 15, 2015 18:24:39 GMT -5
I would move Jackie Bradley in a deal for a stud reliever. Someone along the lines of Chapman or Giles. Obviously Chapman would need to be re-signed. I believe there is a lot of quality OF on the trade market that would provide more offense than JBJ. The Sox obviously need offense and moving Bradley would allow you to keep Mookie in CF. Guys like Carlos Gonzalez, Cameron Maybin, Jay Bruce are all out there on the trade market. Even cost friendly guys like Denard Span, Rajai Davis, Chris Young could be options and all of those guys arguably provide more offense than Bradley. I would hold on to Swihart at all costs, the kid improved so much from the time he was called up to the end of the season and he worked his tail off to do that. He will continue to work hard and we will continue to see improvements. If Vasquez had a set back, we would have Ryan Hanigan & Sandy Leon as full time starters. Dombrowski will be nervous to deal Swihart and watch him blossom into the best offensive catcher in the league. A potential all star every year. So you move an OF that's making 550k for a reliever making 12 million. Then you extend said reliever, probably buying out his current year and resigning him at 15-16 mill per. So you've added 14+ million in salary. And now you want to go out and sign a Chris Young Rajai Davis type for 2/10-2/15. You've put the Sox over the luxury tax by about 10-11 million, and you still need to sign a starter and another OF-er. In this situation, the Red Sox now own the 3 highest AAV relievers in the game in Koji Kimbrel and Chapman.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 16, 2015 10:10:00 GMT -5
I would move Jackie Bradley in a deal for a stud reliever. Someone along the lines of Chapman or Giles. Obviously Chapman would need to be re-signed. I believe there is a lot of quality OF on the trade market that would provide more offense than JBJ. The Sox obviously need offense and moving Bradley would allow you to keep Mookie in CF. Guys like Carlos Gonzalez, Cameron Maybin, Jay Bruce are all out there on the trade market. Even cost friendly guys like Denard Span, Rajai Davis, Chris Young could be options and all of those guys arguably provide more offense than Bradley. I would hold on to Swihart at all costs, the kid improved so much from the time he was called up to the end of the season and he worked his tail off to do that. He will continue to work hard and we will continue to see improvements. If Vasquez had a set back, we would have Ryan Hanigan & Sandy Leon as full time starters. Dombrowski will be nervous to deal Swihart and watch him blossom into the best offensive catcher in the league. A potential all star every year. So you move an OF that's making 550k for a reliever making 12 million. Then you extend said reliever, probably buying out his current year and resigning him at 15-16 mill per. So you've added 14+ million in salary. And now you want to go out and sign a Chris Young Rajai Davis type for 2/10-2/15. You've put the Sox over the luxury tax by about 10-11 million, and you still need to sign a starter and another OF-er. In this situation, the Red Sox now own the 3 highest AAV relievers in the game in Koji Kimbrel and Chapman. At this point, Chapman won't happen....If DD can improve the bullpen even more, he does it. Even the NYY are trying to improve their bullpen even with Miller/Betances/Wilson....IMO we match up with them with (a slightly lesser extent) Kimbrel/Koji/Tazawa. Adding a Giles would not be out of the question though I think DD ran through too many bullets in getting Kimbrel. He will probably sign O'day or Soria to lengthen the BP.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 16, 2015 10:21:08 GMT -5
So you move an OF that's making 550k for a reliever making 12 million. Then you extend said reliever, probably buying out his current year and resigning him at 15-16 mill per. So you've added 14+ million in salary. And now you want to go out and sign a Chris Young Rajai Davis type for 2/10-2/15. You've put the Sox over the luxury tax by about 10-11 million, and you still need to sign a starter and another OF-er. In this situation, the Red Sox now own the 3 highest AAV relievers in the game in Koji Kimbrel and Chapman. At this point, Chapman won't happen....If DD can improve the bullpen even more, he does it. Even the NYY are trying to improve their bullpen even with Miller/Betances/Wilson....IMO we match up with them with (a slightly lesser extent) Kimbrel/Koji/Tazawa. Adding a Giles would not be out of the question though I think DD ran through too many bullets in getting Kimbrel. He will probably sign O'day or Soria to lengthen the BP. I'd like to see another BP piece like O'Day or Soria, but I think those two would want to close or set up. I think Sipp is more realistic.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 16, 2015 11:14:17 GMT -5
Not sure if they would demand to close....they are at the age where this will probably be their last contracts. They would in fact be setting up....Look at KC with Herrera, he pitched a lot of 7th inning & he is arguably one the best relievers in the game. I think they will want to sign with a decent shot at the playoffs. As it is, they will be pitching in a lot of late inning situations even with Kimbrel. Sipp will be a good fit as well.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 16, 2015 11:49:20 GMT -5
Word was that KC wanted Bradley bad and were willing to trade one of their bullpen pieces. I wonder which one.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 16, 2015 11:58:53 GMT -5
I really hate that KC won the WS so that now everyone thinks they need 5 closers.
I have no idea where anymore relievers will fit. Are they just going to throw away guys like Ross and Wright?
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 16, 2015 12:07:20 GMT -5
I've been singing the bullpen is underrated tune for years so don't go blaming it on the Royals.. Lol
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 16, 2015 12:50:30 GMT -5
I really hate that KC won the WS so that now everyone thinks they need 5 closers. I have no idea where anymore relievers will fit. Are they just going to throw away guys like Ross and Wright? If they have options, they'll be in Pawtucket....I think Ross has one more option. Either way Wright starts in the BP as the long man as he has no more options, otherwise he'll have to be DFA'd or traded. KC did make it to the big dance 2 years in a row with their BP being the main reason. There may be something to that.
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Post by xanderdu on Nov 16, 2015 13:03:12 GMT -5
I really hate that KC won the WS so that now everyone thinks they need 5 closers. I have no idea where anymore relievers will fit. Are they just going to throw away guys like Ross and Wright? We've won our championships when we had lights out back ends. Through that prism, building a strong pen makes more sense. You're right in that it is getting increasingly crowded in the pen. Ross has an option remaining, so that choice could be made. They also will have surplus starters assuming they sign a FA. Could they not bundle a guy like Ross with a starter like Miley, or Kelly to improve further? I think Wright is a pretty sure bet in the 7th spot.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 16, 2015 14:13:23 GMT -5
Let's keep this to JBJ and any information posters have run across that deal directly with him as part of a trade package. We do have a separate thread for potential bullpen improvements.
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Post by rafael on Nov 16, 2015 16:41:56 GMT -5
I'm going to throw up if JBJ is traded for a reliever.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Nov 16, 2015 16:56:59 GMT -5
You don't assume he's going to be healthy and deal a guy like Swihart. It's a huge risk, especially when Vazquez still needed to prove himself with the bat. His bat was already fringe MLB worthy and he lost a full year of playing and development and the injury could affect how it performed. I'm concerned about him with the bat in his hands not behind the plate. Based on what? His bat is alot better than some old scouting reports indicate. His BA was exactly league average for catchers during his rookie season. His OBP was slightly above average and his power the last thing to develop for most young players was below average. Also his last few years in the minors- AAA-0.279 0.336 0.385 0.721 & AA-0.289 0.376 0.395 0.771 indicate he could hit too. Perception lags behind reality.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 16, 2015 17:39:19 GMT -5
I would rather not see JBJ traded at all. His defense is fun to watch and extraordinary, he is working his way to becoming a serviceable major league hitter and he's the type of complementary player that winning teams seem to possess.
Throw in his potential prime years and cheap salary and you've got a valuable player. Unlike the players in the trade that shall not be mentioned, I am bullish on JBJ and wouldn't settle for anything less him being a centerpiece for a #1 type starter who is cost controlled....and that doesn't seem likely.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 16, 2015 18:41:16 GMT -5
I'm going to throw up if JBJ is traded for a reliever. I might throw up if I have to watch Bradley hitting .230 again next year knowing they missed they chance to sell high on him. I'm not saying I want him moved, I actually kept him in the GM game as I think his salary makes it necessary to keep him, but I won't be at all surprised if he cant hit enough to keep his job. Outside of one 25 game stretch where he was ridiculously good, he's been basically inept with the bat. He batted .213 after that hot streak
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Post by Smittyw on Nov 16, 2015 18:51:40 GMT -5
I'd love to have JBJ hitting .230 next year. Now, if "selling high" means we could get a top-of-the-rotation starter for him now it'd be a different story, but I don't think anyone knows that. So far we've heard we could get Tom Wilhemsen.
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Post by xanderdu on Nov 16, 2015 19:18:38 GMT -5
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Post by Smittyw on Nov 16, 2015 19:25:01 GMT -5
Right, I saw that.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Nov 16, 2015 19:29:58 GMT -5
I'm going to throw up if JBJ is traded for a reliever. I might throw up if I have to watch Bradley hitting .230 again next year knowing they missed they chance to sell high on him. I'm not saying I want him moved, I actually kept him in the GM game as I think his salary makes it necessary to keep him, but I won't be at all surprised if he cant hit enough to keep his job. Outside of one 25 game stretch where he was ridiculously good, he's been basically inept with the bat. He batted .213 after that hot streak If Bradley hits .230 next year then he would still be a pretty solid player, and if they platooned him slightly with a RHH off the bench, it may be a little higher. He looks like he has a real shot of being the next Mike Cameron, as the thing that he kept after he cooled off was the power (he hit .213 in Sept/Oct but he also had a .216 ISO) which makes me believe that it is for real. He'll probably always strike out too much so his average will be volatile and may be closer to .200 than .300, but Cameron's career average was .249 and he accumulated over 50 fWAR for his career. Clearly you don't build your team around this guy (as the Mariners discovered) but you should feel happy you have him. Unless Jason Heyward is coming through the door, then I'll be happy to keep JBJ. Here are Mike Cameron's stats if anyone wants to take a look. www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1070&position=OF
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 16, 2015 20:52:06 GMT -5
So you got me thinking.... Can a team support two guys successfully like Bradley and Vazquez assuming both were great gloves but lineup drags.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 16, 2015 21:34:37 GMT -5
So you got me thinking.... Can a team support two guys successfully like Bradley and Vazquez assuming both were great gloves but lineup drags. Absolutely. Plus defense up the middle. (and in Fenway, in right). I mean, are we even debating this? Jackie Bradley had a 2.4WAR in 74 games last year. Christian Vazquez appeared in 55 games in 2014 and had a 0.6WAR, and his bat is capable of more. These guys are assets, not anchors around our necks. We trade Margot over JBJ because JBJ's elite defense (Margot is not elite) makes him a worthwhile player without his bat.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 16, 2015 22:51:24 GMT -5
So you got me thinking.... Can a team support two guys successfully like Bradley and Vazquez assuming both were great gloves but lineup drags. Absolutely. Plus defense up the middle. (and in Fenway, in right). I mean, are we even debating this? Jackie Bradley had a 2.4WAR in 74 games last year. Christian Vazquez appeared in 55 games in 2014 and had a 0.6WAR, and his bat is capable of more. These guys are assets, not anchors around our necks. We trade Margot over JBJ because JBJ's elite defense (Margot is not elite) makes him a worthwhile player without his bat. And depending how much weight you put into framing, it's safe to say Vazquez was probably closer to 1.6 than 0.6.
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