SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Boras
Jan 6, 2018 21:37:43 GMT -5
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 6, 2018 21:37:43 GMT -5
Drawing the same conclusion 15 different baseball writers and experts did. You don't sign with Boras right before free agency for any other reason than money and a bigger contract. Then right after Boras is calling him the King Kong of Slug and throwing out 7 years 200 million. Do you really think he didn't pitch that to Martinez? What are you even arguing? Literally no one is disputing that people sign with Boras to make more money. It's what everyone has been telling you. People sign with Boras to make more money. JDM voluntarily went to Boras because he wanted more money. How can you type a sentence that says players sign with Boras to make more money, but then blame Boras for doing exactly what the player asked him to do? I'm not arguing anything. You seemed to miss Fenway saying I was making things up and you acting like I said something I never did. Do you think Martinez just signed with Boras without talking to him? Unless you do, I'm not sure what you are arguing about.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 6, 2018 21:41:09 GMT -5
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 6, 2018 21:41:09 GMT -5
Drawing the same conclusion 15 different baseball writers and experts did. You don't sign with Boras right before free agency for any other reason than money and a bigger contract. Then right after Boras is calling him the King Kong of Slug and throwing out 7 years 200 million. Do you really think he didn't pitch that to Martinez? What are you even trying to prove at this point? Serious question. Not trying to prove anything, pointing out I wasn't making anything up like you claimed.
|
|
|
Post by swingingbunt on Jan 6, 2018 22:34:46 GMT -5
What are you even arguing? Literally no one is disputing that people sign with Boras to make more money. It's what everyone has been telling you. People sign with Boras to make more money. JDM voluntarily went to Boras because he wanted more money. How can you type a sentence that says players sign with Boras to make more money, but then blame Boras for doing exactly what the player asked him to do? I'm not arguing anything. You seemed to miss Fenway saying I was making things up and you acting like I said something I never did. Do you think Martinez just signed with Boras without talking to him? Unless you do, I'm not sure what you are arguing about. You're just being ridiculous now. This was the comment I originally replied to... You're down playing Boras and the role he plays. He certainly does tell them what they should do and shouldn't do. They don't have to listen, but he's not just some realtor giving you an offer on your house. You really think if early in free agency if Martinez was like I want to take Bostons 5 year 125 million deal Boras would be like OK? He would talk him out of it or at least try too. Boras is too blame. Martinez signed with Boras because he was telling him how much money he could get him. Sit back let me do my thing, I'll get you an extra year or two and 25-50 million extra. Now Martinez wants that because Boras put it into his head. Big difference when your agent brings an offer and says this is fair or this is junk. I'm going to get you 50 million more, don't take it. Players hire agents to handle the process. That's the thing with Boras compared to other agents. He tries to set up his own market, while other agents get the best deal in a given market. You specifically said Boras is to blame. He's not. Boras didn't have to tell Martinez that he would get him a lot of money...Martinez already knew it. That's why Martinez called him in the first place. You're doing the equivalent of blaming your waitress for telling you the price on your steak went up. It's not the waitress' fault, and it's not Boras' fault. And you did make stuff up. Almost the entire rest of the post I just linked was you making up a hypothetical and saying that even if Martinez wanted to sign early in the off-season, Boras wouldn't have let him. That didn't happen. You made it up just like Fenway said you did.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 7, 2018 0:48:33 GMT -5
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 7, 2018 0:48:33 GMT -5
I'm not arguing anything. You seemed to miss Fenway saying I was making things up and you acting like I said something I never did. Do you think Martinez just signed with Boras without talking to him? Unless you do, I'm not sure what you are arguing about. You're just being ridiculous now. This was the comment I originally replied to... You're down playing Boras and the role he plays. He certainly does tell them what they should do and shouldn't do. They don't have to listen, but he's not just some realtor giving you an offer on your house. You really think if early in free agency if Martinez was like I want to take Bostons 5 year 125 million deal Boras would be like OK? He would talk him out of it or at least try too. Boras is too blame. Martinez signed with Boras because he was telling him how much money he could get him. Sit back let me do my thing, I'll get you an extra year or two and 25-50 million extra. Now Martinez wants that because Boras put it into his head. Big difference when your agent brings an offer and says this is fair or this is junk. I'm going to get you 50 million more, don't take it. Players hire agents to handle the process. That's the thing with Boras compared to other agents. He tries to set up his own market, while other agents get the best deal in a given market. You specifically said Boras is to blame. He's not. Boras didn't have to tell Martinez that he would get him a lot of money...Martinez already knew it. That's why Martinez called him in the first place. You're doing the equivalent of blaming your waitress for telling you the price on your steak went up. It's not the waitress' fault, and it's not Boras' fault. And you did make stuff up. Almost the entire rest of the post I just linked was you making up a hypothetical and saying that even if Martinez wanted to sign early in the off-season, Boras wouldn't have let him. That didn't happen. You made it up just like Fenway said you did. Wow you just want to argue. The top post you replied to was me talking to fenway about what he said, not you. Not sure why you think it has anything to do with you. Yes he is to blame for this slow market. He controls a ton of top free agents and has a loooong history of dragging out the negotiation period to get big deals. So you admit he called and talked with him. Proves my point, he called, Boras pitched him and he signed. Wether he had to is really a mute point. The point was Boras raises his clients expectations compared to other agents. No more like blaming the waitress for taking so long my food is cold. My biggest issue with Boras is him dragging out the market, not money. Yes it a hypothetical based off the long history of Boras. How many free agents has he had sign quick for under what was seen as market value? Players have talked about how Boras is and his thought process. Nothing made up, unless you're saying Boras wouldn't try and talk his client out of a quick deal for below market rate. Is that what you are saying? I never said it happened, but that he would. Players have said this when talking about Boras. Glad they listened to him, he got them more money, they would have jumped at an early deal. You just made up that it didn't happen, we have no clue. No need to respond.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 7, 2018 1:12:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by swingingbunt on Jan 7, 2018 1:12:32 GMT -5
I would say we should just agree to disagree, but you're now arguing with people by saying there was never a disagreement to begin with.
I'm just going to now do what jimed's did 20 posts ago. Goodnight.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 7, 2018 2:00:04 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by jiant2520 on Jan 7, 2018 2:00:04 GMT -5
Good night
|
|
radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,484
|
Post by radiohix on Jan 7, 2018 9:00:05 GMT -5
And apologies to S.Carter. Good call on that one radiohix. I'll go put on Reasonable Doubt this evening. One of the all time greats (Illmatic remains the best hip hop album of all time though) Off topic, but listening to the podcasts and following your twitter or reading you here over the years, I got to say you know your music my man.
|
|
gerry
Veteran
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,708
Member is Online
|
Post by gerry on Jan 7, 2018 10:34:17 GMT -5
A smart person looks around before settling on a dentist, accountant, doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, whatever. Having done so, that person solicits advice and usually listens to it, as the chosen professional is the expert. There is no guarantee that this advice is accurate, beneficial or even ethical; and this is too often the case.
My problem with Scott Boras, Esq. is not that he advises his clients, and usually gets them a good deal, as that is his job. It's that he:
1. does his job at the expense of every other player on every team he deals with; and the inherent wellbeing of those teams. It's not about labor vs management. It's about player vs. player, and about one player's $$ vs. the $$ of team mates and, logically, the success of the team. DDo, for example, in attempting to compete with the NYFY, has shown interest not only in JDM (whose career DDo has already rescued) but also in Santana, Abreu, Nunez, Machado, LHRP, etc., but he can't make a move before resolving the JDM deal, if it can be resolved reasonably (7/210M is not reasonable.) DDo is waiting on Boras. Nunez is waiting on Boras. The team is waiting on Boras. And JDM is absolutely waiting on his advisor, Boras, to advise him on the next move. Same as he would wait for his doctor or lawyer to advise him what to do. Players certainly make the ultimate decision (see Tek) but are not likely the principal decision makers during the process of negotiation. Players have as little expertise in such matters as they do in medicine or law. "When Boras speaks, players listen."
2. Boras' reputation as a flimflam man is well deserved. We all know his type, possibly to our detriment. He spins fairy tales and sells them as Gospel truth. He does so to the detriment of both labor (other players) and management (DDo) as well as the industry (baseball and its fans) which supports him lavishly. Was it Haymen who originally dubbed him "superagent" or Boras himself? I once worked with a man who sold a 100 year supply of toothpaste to a struggling native Alaskan tribe. He built a lucrative career on that incredible feat. He hurt the tribe, but in sales and marketing, he was considered a legend. Still is. When it is brought up that he hurt the tribe, the retort is inevitably "he was just doing his job, and doing it well." So is Boras.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 7, 2018 12:02:10 GMT -5
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 7, 2018 12:02:10 GMT -5
Scott Boras: enemy of labor is a hot take I was not fully prepared for. I once worked with a man who sold a 100 year supply of toothpaste to a struggling native Alaskan tribe. He built a lucrative career on that incredible feat. He hurt the tribe, but in sales and marketing, he was considered a legend. Still is. When it is brought up that he hurt the tribe, the retort is inevitably "he was just doing his job, and doing it well." So is Boras. Yes, when you’re talking about historically marginalized and abused populations such as Native Americans or whatever billionaire ends up paying JD Martinez, this kind of behavior is just wrong.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 7, 2018 12:17:20 GMT -5
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 7, 2018 12:17:20 GMT -5
You know it's an extremely boring offseason when all we can talk about is how evil/brilliant Scott Boras is. Gerry's first point nails how I feel about Scott Boras. There's something so wrong about this. I so wish there was actual baseball to talk about.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 7, 2018 12:42:02 GMT -5
Post by iakovos11 on Jan 7, 2018 12:42:02 GMT -5
So there's something wrong with Boras getting the best deal for HIS client? He's not hired by the teams to help them out. These billionaire owners have plenty of money to hire their own "Boras" to work in their front office. Apparently they choose not to. They cave and pay or wait and wait. That's the teams' fault. Or their GM's or their owner's. Teams have a choice. They can move on. They choose not to. So very different than Alaskan/Inuit tribes without info. I'm sorry MLB isn't this super balanced league where everyone gets paid based on their actual worth and all teams are on the same playing field. Maybe a real salary cap would help! NFL isn't any different. Look at Malcolm Butler. Probably deserves more $$. But he has to wait for his time.
Boras isn't hired by a player to act for the for the good of baseball or the good of a team. He's hired by a player, to get him the contract he wants. He has a fiduciary obligation to his client, not MLB or the team. The idea that he's coercing these players into holding out for more, more, more is silly. They're big boys. They are capable of making decisions. If they are worried about moving and getting settled, they'll tell him to get it done NOW. Apparently they aren't that concerned. (and how often do we see players choosing locations based on being close to their home and being able to flt back often because they don't relocate - if they have families anyway).
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 7, 2018 12:56:30 GMT -5
Talking about Boras is just so myopic. It's the damn CBA people!
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 9, 2018 15:26:40 GMT -5
Another list, and only 5 of those 11 are Boras clients. Again, Boras ISN'T the problem.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 9, 2018 15:58:02 GMT -5
I wonder if there is some dual collusion going on from both the teams and the agents/players.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 16:05:22 GMT -5
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 9, 2018 16:05:22 GMT -5
I wonder if there is some dual collusion going on from both the teams and the agents/players. What exactly would the players be trying to accomplish in this scenario?
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 9, 2018 16:07:10 GMT -5
I wonder if there is some dual collusion going on from both the teams and the agents/players. What exactly would the players be trying to accomplish in this scenario? Holding out for the contracts they want and not jumping on whatever is getting offered so that they're not left out of the musical chair game where positions are filled and budgets are allocated. I mean if Arrieta and Darvish are only getting 3-4 year offers, that would be a huge step back for the players.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 16:13:50 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 9, 2018 16:13:50 GMT -5
Another list, and only 5 of those 11 are Boras clients. Again, Boras ISN'T the problem. That still is almost half of the top free agents listed.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 9, 2018 16:23:57 GMT -5
Another list, and only 5 of those 11 are Boras clients. Again, Boras ISN'T the problem. That still is almost half of the top free agents listed. Which still isn't enough to "hold up the market" as some are saying he is. Again, nothing is stopping the other 6 guys on this list from signing if Boras is the issue. Teams would say "fine, we don't need Arrieta, let's go get Darvish/Cobb/Lynn." A team needing a third baseman waiting on Moustakas would just go sign Frazier. None of Boras's clients even match up with Cain's skillset.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 17:09:30 GMT -5
Post by ramireja on Jan 9, 2018 17:09:30 GMT -5
Here is some more speculation as to whats causing the slow offseason. Note the beginning of the article is linked in the text to other various speculation (e.g., collusion theory, teams figuring out that prices go down as spring training nears). Bottom line -- there are probably a number factors at play here that don't include Boras being the devil.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 17:35:46 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 9, 2018 17:35:46 GMT -5
That still is almost half of the top free agents listed. Which still isn't enough to "hold up the market" as some are saying he is. Again, nothing is stopping the other 6 guys on this list from signing if Boras is the issue. Teams would say "fine, we don't need Arrieta, let's go get Darvish/Cobb/Lynn." A team needing a third baseman waiting on Moustakas would just go sign Frazier. None of Boras's clients even match up with Cain's skillset. 2 out of the top 3 clients are Boras guys. Those players are the ones setting the markets.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 17:54:19 GMT -5
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 9, 2018 17:54:19 GMT -5
Which still isn't enough to "hold up the market" as some are saying he is. Again, nothing is stopping the other 6 guys on this list from signing if Boras is the issue. Teams would say "fine, we don't need Arrieta, let's go get Darvish/Cobb/Lynn." A team needing a third baseman waiting on Moustakas would just go sign Frazier. None of Boras's clients even match up with Cain's skillset. 2 out of the top 3 clients are Boras guys. Those players are the ones setting the markets. Explain to me why.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 18:00:58 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 9, 2018 18:00:58 GMT -5
2 out of the top 3 clients are Boras guys. Those players are the ones setting the markets. Explain to me why. They are the top dominoes to fall before guys like Cain, Cargo, Duda, and I'm sure other names that are affected by the top players markets. Why would a AL team move on to another target other than J.D. Martinez, if J.D is still out there? Why would any team move on to another first base target if Hosmer is still out there. Look Boras isn't the end all be all problem to this slow market, but he is a huge part of it with the way he overvalues his clients.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 18:20:39 GMT -5
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 9, 2018 18:20:39 GMT -5
They are the top dominoes to fall before guys like Cain, Cargo, Duda, and I'm sure other names that are affected by the top players markets. Why would a AL team move on to another target other than J.D. Martinez, if J.D is still out there? Why would any team move on to another first base target if Hosmer is still out there. Look Boras isn't the end all be all problem to this slow market, but he is a huge part of it with the way he overvalues his clients. If a player plays a different position, what do those two have to do with it? If a team isn't going to be able to afford Martinez or Hosmer, why wouldn't they have already moved on to a cheaper guy? Are 26 teams in on Martinez or Hosmer? No, like 2-3 each. So why haven't the 27-28 other teams signed other players before the teams that miss out on Martinez or Hosmer come calling? A team that signs Cain isn't necessarily in on either of those guys. A team that signs Frazier doesn't has to have been in on either of those guys. There are teams that will prefer Darvish and/or Cobb to Arrieta. It doesn't have to do with Boras at all. He's not a factor any more than any other agent is. If he WERE a factor, teams would be scooping up the non-Boras guys to avoid having to deal with him.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 18:28:13 GMT -5
Post by sox fan in nc on Jan 9, 2018 18:28:13 GMT -5
Off the subject a tad----just sad that only 7 pages ago, the opening discussion started with Jose Fernandez.
|
|
|
Boras
Jan 9, 2018 19:48:05 GMT -5
Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 9, 2018 19:48:05 GMT -5
Talking about Boras is just so myopic. It's the damn CBA people! Newer members should dig around in the archives. When the previous iteration of the CBA was signed, it was obvious to many of us that this was where it was headed. The owners had had enough of stop me before I hurt myself again, and they started down the road to much tougher penalties. That's where it's gone. Get on the wrong side of those and you're in a world of hurt. Boras understood clearly what was happening and he said so at the time. But what is he supposed to do now that that framework is in place, roll over and urinate on himself? He's a agent and he's going to keep pushing for his clients. Suggesting that he should play some sort of baseball god by deciding which team/teams need what sort of slack to sign the players he represents is just laughable. That's not his job, it isn't anybody's job but the GM's. The MLBPA is going to have to get with the program and fast. The owners have started to disconnect the baseball revenue stream from player payouts and it's happening quickly. In a must-read NY Times story, Disney's purchase of the FOX RSN's is mentioned, along with the head-scratching by skeptics: That bolded statement is, of course wrong, as anyone who has an MLBAM subscription clearly understands. Disney has some sort of master plan, I'll bet. They've acquired a large interest in the MLBAM technology, and I'm sure they are going to find a way to leverage that. For the owners, it's a gravy train, and one that doesn't have the MLBPA on board. Each owner received a $50 million payout for that Disney interest, and none of it counts towards the CBA revenue stream. That's probably just the start of the disconnect. Union leadership hasn't had the vision to see what's going down. The sort of moribund off-season we've experienced will be the norm in coming years unless the players put on their big-boy pants and start to play hardball. That's my prediction.
|
|
|