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Post by sammo420 on Dec 10, 2015 20:14:48 GMT -5
In the grand scheme of things, with the total amount of money this guy will make in his career, you'll excuse me if I don't cry for him.
Ryan Howard hasn't been anywhere near the player the contract he signed pays him to be. I don't see him giving it back.
Look, the system is what it is. If you don't like, then go be an accountant somewhere.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 10, 2015 20:33:04 GMT -5
In the grand scheme of things, with the total amount of money this guy will make in his career, you'll excuse me if I don't cry for him. Ryan Howard hasn't been anywhere near the player the contract he signed pays him to be. I don't see him giving it back. Look, the system is what it is. If you don't like, then go be an accountant somewhere. Are you Jeff Loria? Good for Kris Bryant, too many players get screwed with this yearly and it's just plain wrong. However, like Chris said, I have no idea how to fix this without changing the whole structure of baseball contracts. Maybe if more players do this then the owners could get scared into creating bad blood between the team and the franchise cornerstones so they stop doing it. Perhaps that's what Franco and Bryant are going for here? Airing this out to try and win the public and pressure the owners? Because they have no chance of actually winning the grievances.
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Post by foreverred9 on Dec 10, 2015 21:39:45 GMT -5
The issue I see is the gap between what a player gets paid prior to free agency and what the player provides the team in value. If players were paid according to their value added then no team would benefit from holding back their development. Some sort of fixed plus variable compensation package could alleviate this.
While I think holding back a player for financial gain is clearly wrong in the "spirit of the game" rulebook, that's not how the business operates. From a business perspective, when you can get an additional year of a 6.5 WAR player at the cost of one year of league minimum salary, what businessman wouldn't try for that? The risk/reward tradeoff is massive.
While I feel badly for the individual players losing out, economically this feels like the inverse of the individual who signs a huge contract but performs like crap (Zito, Wells, etc.). Those individuals won, so in the aggregate the union nets out even.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 10, 2015 22:27:45 GMT -5
The issue I see is the gap between what a player gets paid prior to free agency and what the player provides the team in value. If players were paid according to their value added then no team would benefit from holding back their development. Some sort of fixed plus variable compensation package could alleviate this. While I think holding back a player for financial gain is clearly wrong in the "spirit of the game" rulebook, that's not how the business operates. From a business perspective, when you can get an additional year of a 6.5 WAR player at the cost of one year of league minimum salary, what businessman wouldn't try for that? The risk/reward tradeoff is massive. While I feel badly for the individual players losing out, economically this feels like the inverse of the individual who signs a huge contract but performs like crap (Zito, Wells, etc.). Those individuals won, so in the aggregate the union nets out even. Could even take that extra step and add the gap between pay for minor leaguers and major leaguers as part of the equation. I'm never going to feel bad for an MLB player or owner losing a few bucks while they guy in AAA who didn't get a signing bonus is struggling to support a family off a salary below minimum wage. (And don't forget the guys who get big signing bonuses out of highschool/DR and never makes the majors - which is probably more in line with the above quote)
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 11, 2015 7:33:32 GMT -5
There is also something really wrong when someone like Ellsbury is making 40 times as much as the better player who replaced him. The difference between the top salaries and the minimum is way too great. If you at least doubled the minimum, that would do a lot to help. The difference between 500k and 1M is a huge deal for everyone.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 11, 2015 8:14:42 GMT -5
I think the only way to solve this problem is to reduce the number of days after the six year mark of control. So instead of needing 6 years and 170+ days on the roster to get to free agency, maybe they cut it to 6 years and 90 days.
That way players gain by getting called up earlier and teams still gain by having a chance to call up a rookie down the stretch in playoff time. It also allows teams to still use their September callups and get rookies experience.
In this scenario, there would be no discrepancies over whether the player should have started the year on the roster or not. Either he's ready and the team starts his clock in the majors or he's not ready and he needs a half year or so to develop more.
Everyone wins, especially the players and agents.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 11, 2015 8:35:18 GMT -5
Teams are clearly abusing this power by using this rule to get almost 7 years of control but I really can't blame them with the way the highest contracts in the market are going up.
This rule is only being abused with the really good and high profiled prospects. Sure you have cases like Porcello being cut off at 2 days of free agency but I don't think he can complain too much with the extension he got.
So the game of baseball just needs to shrink the gap so no more teams can take advantage of the rule. Either the prospect is ready or he isn't.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 11, 2015 9:04:50 GMT -5
There is also something really wrong when someone like Ellsbury is making 40 times as much as the better player who replaced him. The difference between the top salaries and the minimum is way too great. If you at least doubled the minimum, that would do a lot to help. The difference between 500k and 1M is a huge deal for everyone. How's that much different than the great lawyer or dentist or doctor or any other profession who gets out of school with student debt but is paid lower wages for a few years, who can barely afford a good place to live bc of their debts? Why because they chose a profession with a longer career? The guy who's 23 and struggling to support a family in AAA is no different than a recent college grad with student loan debt making entry level wages. The guy who is 28 struggling to make a living in AAA needs to reevaluate what choices he didn't make to set himself up for a life outside or baseball when you know your chances are basically nil to make life changing money in the game. If you were drafted out of college, then you have a degree to fall back on and you're like a ton of kids who graduated college and change professions at that age. If you signed out of high school and chose not to get an education or invest the signing bonus that got you to forgo college then shame on you. Most of these guys wash out by the time a regular kid is graduating college or shortly there after, let's not act like their lives are lost. It's like riding a bus, staying in hotels, hanging out with your buddies and banging broads while getting paid to play baseball is this Devine sacrifice they make.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 11, 2015 9:07:37 GMT -5
How many players a year does the service time clock affect? Not too many. If you move the days back it will only help the elite of the elite. Then the other guys will get stuck in the minors longer and even though their service time is what it was now they get minor league salaries for those extra months instead of major league ones. When they get called up they get a much larger salary daily than in the minors...
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 11, 2015 9:55:24 GMT -5
There is also something really wrong when someone like Ellsbury is making 40 times as much as the better player who replaced him. The difference between the top salaries and the minimum is way too great. If you at least doubled the minimum, that would do a lot to help. The difference between 500k and 1M is a huge deal for everyone. How's that much different than the great lawyer or dentist or doctor or any other profession who gets out of school with student debt but is paid lower wages for a few years, who can barely afford a good place to live bc of their debts? Why because they chose a profession with a longer career? The guy who's 23 and struggling to support a family in AAA is no different than a recent college grad with student loan debt making entry level wages. The guy who is 28 struggling to make a living in AAA needs to reevaluate what choices he didn't make to set himself up for a life outside or baseball when you know your chances are basically nil to make life changing money in the game. If you were drafted out of college, then you have a degree to fall back on and you're like a ton of kids who graduated college and change professions at that age. If you signed out of high school and chose not to get an education or invest the signing bonus that got you to forgo college then shame on you. Most of these guys wash out by the time a regular kid is graduating college or shortly there after, let's not act like their lives are lost. It's like riding a bus, staying in hotels, hanging out with your buddies and banging broads while getting paid to play baseball is this Devine sacrifice they make. We're talking about baseball. No other sport or profession compares. They have a legal antitrust exemption. I was also talking about the MLB minimum, so I'm not sure what 28 year old minor league players have to do with it. And no matter what your argument is against those guys about how they shouldn't be playing anymore, baseball actually needs them to help the real prospects develop so they do have value. There is so much money in baseball, that the only thing anyone should be talking about is how to split it up. So if you don't want the minor league guys getting at least the federal minimum wage or to raise the MLB minimum, then you want the owners to keep more or you want the $30 million guys to be getting $40-50 million instead. The money doesn't cease to exist and they aren't going to lower prices on what fans are willing to spend. There is no comparing it to us and what we do in life and how much we're paid. No one is paying to watch me do service requests or install patches on a server.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 11, 2015 10:24:22 GMT -5
Nor do people "pay" much to watch a minor leaguer. Nor did I say a 28 year old in AAA shouldn't be playing. It's his choice. Also what do you base minimum wage off of? People who travel for their jobs don't get paid every hour they travel. I'm just asking out of curiosity not accusing you of being wrong - want to clarify so you don't get defensive.
Also, I quoted your post but responded to multiple so wasn't trying to put words into your mouth regarding minor leaguers.
Personally, I think teams should be investing more into players in the minors in terms of having full time nutritionists/chefs with the team including travel who prove them with healthy meals and food. I would do this if I were a team because the cost overall is minimal and it not just improves your reputation and player experience it also is good for your players development. I think it's ridiculous that you'd want your players eating fast food and like crap when they are supposed to be highly tuned professional athletes. However, I wouldn't solve that problem by paying them more because 90% of them would invest that money into beer and video games not health .
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 11, 2015 11:36:29 GMT -5
I think it's ridiculous that you'd want your players eating fast food and like crap when they are supposed to be highly tuned professional athletes. However, I wouldn't solve that problem by paying them more because 90% of them would invest that money into beer and video games not health .I don't think this is a valid concern. You can live a spectacularly unhealthy lifestyle on almost any budget.
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