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Severe ankle sprain for Swihart
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Post by grandsalami on Jun 5, 2016 15:45:23 GMT -5
“@mikesilvermanbb: It’s a severe ankle sprain for Swihart. He’ll be immobilized for two weeks, so this will not be a quick DL stint.”
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 5, 2016 15:57:22 GMT -5
Having your best catcher hurt while leftfielding isn't as needless as losing a pitcher while baserunning, but it's a similar type of frustration.
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Post by grandsalami on Jun 5, 2016 16:52:37 GMT -5
“@jtomase: Further diagnosis on Swihart, per team spokesman: has medial and lateral ankle sprain, as well as a strain of the peroneal tendons.”
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 5, 2016 17:09:44 GMT -5
Having your best catcher hurt while leftfielding isn't as needless as losing a pitcher while baserunning, but it's a similar type of frustration. Are we back to that camp? A few weeks back Vazquez was really saving the pitchers, what's changed?
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Post by grandsalami on Jun 5, 2016 17:21:59 GMT -5
“@jtomase: Bit more on Swihart: Team sources initially feared injury would be season-ending, but after followup exam, they’ll wait 2 weeks and see.”
“@jtomase: Certainly doesn’t sound good on Swihart either way, but club at least is not yet ready to rule out a return this season.”
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,422
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Post by ianrs on Jun 5, 2016 17:27:50 GMT -5
Having your best catcher hurt while leftfielding isn't as needless as losing a pitcher while baserunning, but it's a similar type of frustration. Are we back to that camp? A few weeks back Vazquez was really saving the pitchers, what's changed? This seems needlessly reactionary. To me, James is just expressing frustration with Swihart's injury, which seems like a completely reasonable expression that doesn't really have anything to do with Christian Vazquez. I guess you could read into the "best catcher" part. Myself and others (but not everyone) were all for Vazquez at the time of his return. And its looking more like we might have been wrong. But, importantly, many of us believed Swihart was going down temporarily to work on his defense at C, not be converted to LF. So that's a small thing that changed.
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Post by jmei on Jun 5, 2016 17:30:24 GMT -5
Having your best catcher hurt while leftfielding isn't as needless as losing a pitcher while baserunning, but it's a similar type of frustration. Are we back to that camp? A few weeks back Vazquez was really saving the pitchers, what's changed? It may be shocking to you to hear that not all the posters of SoxProspects.com have the same opinion on things.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 5, 2016 18:25:16 GMT -5
It may be shocking to you to hear that not all the posters of SoxProspects.com have the same opinion on things. Woah, I didn't mean to sound harsh or ignore that different people think different things. I apologize to James if he also thought that, it wasn't my intention at all. I wasn't being sarcastic, the opinion on Vazquez has soured noticeably over the past few weeks and I don't understand why. He's still the same player he was when the hype was high around him: good defense and bad offense. It's not like his season has been disappointing or anything, he is what he always was. And yet it feels disappointing, which is the part that I don't understand.
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Post by jmei on Jun 5, 2016 19:21:21 GMT -5
There's a difference between run-of-the-mill bad (e.g., Vazquez's Steamer-projected .255/.323/.366, 84 wRC+ line) and borderline unplayably awful (his current .223/.269/.330, 54 wRC+ line). Vazquez has played like the latter rather than the former this year.
There's also the fact that he hasn't looked as good defensively this year-- he's flashed his penchant for passed balls, his arm strength/accuracy isn't all the way there, and his framing has been averagish rather than elite.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 5, 2016 19:42:20 GMT -5
Yeah I guess I underrated how bad Vazquez has been. I always thought his defense was overrated, not because it was supposed to be bad by any means but because it was so highly thought of that it was nearly impossible for him to live up to it. But if his defense truly regressed then there's pretty much no point playing him.
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Post by bosox81 on Jun 5, 2016 20:25:20 GMT -5
Just think of how many times we've been complaining about the Sox pitchers not getting the calls recently. CV was behind the plate for most of them. Not saying he is to blame for that, but most of his supposed value came from getting his pitchers extra strike calls that have not been there of late.
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Post by libertine on Jun 5, 2016 20:31:46 GMT -5
Been there, done that (when I was younger and played soccer) in terms of what Swihart is going to have to go through. I am guessing it will be a good 6 weeks, minimum, before he can even start thinking about running again. The ankle probably will swell to the size of a grapefruit and turn about 5 different colors (I remember yellow, purple, red, and a couple other colors). Still it is better than doing his Achilles...
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Post by libertine on Jun 5, 2016 20:48:58 GMT -5
The sidewall in LF has claimed its 2nd victim in as many years. Not surprisingly 2 players who didn't have very much experience playing LF. I had noticed over the years that Yaz, Rice, Greenwell, Manny, etc gave that sidewall much respect. No matter how much you want to make the play whomever they put out there should avoid running full speed into that concrete slab, covered by a thin layer padding, at all cost...or run a very good risk of ending up in a cast.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,445
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Post by radiohix on Jun 5, 2016 20:50:24 GMT -5
Maybe Off Topic but I watched the 2 STL-SF last 2 games and if you've never heard about Molina reputation before, you would say this guy is a terrible defensive catcher. What I meant is: Even defense slumps, just remember watching JBJ in the start of the season.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 5, 2016 20:53:47 GMT -5
Been there, done that (when I was younger and played soccer) in terms of what Swihart is going to have to go through. I am guessing it will be a good 6 weeks, minimum, before he can even start thinking about running again. The ankle probably will swell to the size of a grapefruit and turn about 5 different colors (I remember yellow, purple, red, and a couple other colors). Still it is better than doing his Achilles... Yep, having torn my Achilles in January, and looking at my withered little calf on that side, I agree. Though I partially tore my peroneal muscle long jumping in HS and it took me all season to come back to running the 400, and I was pretty deconditioned. This is a tough one...I imagine 6 weeks is about right.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 5, 2016 21:00:36 GMT -5
Having your best catcher hurt while leftfielding isn't as needless as losing a pitcher while baserunning, but it's a similar type of frustration. I don't think there's any possible way the Red Sox could have mismanaged Swihart worse than they have this year.
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Post by libertine on Jun 5, 2016 21:07:44 GMT -5
Been there, done that (when I was younger and played soccer) in terms of what Swihart is going to have to go through. I am guessing it will be a good 6 weeks, minimum, before he can even start thinking about running again. The ankle probably will swell to the size of a grapefruit and turn about 5 different colors (I remember yellow, purple, red, and a couple other colors). Still it is better than doing his Achilles... Yep, having torn my Achilles in January, and looking at my withered little calf on that side, I agree. Though I partially tore my peroneal muscle long jumping in HS and it took me all season to come back to running the 400, and I was pretty deconditioned. This is a tough one...I imagine 6 weeks is about right. Ouch, sorry to hear that.
I was worried he did his Achilles. His season would be over if he did. But with this kind of severe ankle sprain he will probably have problems with the stability of the ankle going forward (be more prone to sprains). I am not sure about your experience but with me I had 3 severe sprains of my left ankle in my teen years. Now if I hold up my foot and someone grabs the bottom, on tries to move it side to side, there is play in my ankle like it's a steering wheel of a car. I used to roll it just walking down the street after those sprains...
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Post by telson13 on Jun 5, 2016 21:14:49 GMT -5
Yep, having torn my Achilles in January, and looking at my withered little calf on that side, I agree. Though I partially tore my peroneal muscle long jumping in HS and it took me all season to come back to running the 400, and I was pretty deconditioned. This is a tough one...I imagine 6 weeks is about right. Ouch, sorry to hear that.
I was worried he did his Achilles. His season would be over if he did. But with this kind of severe ankle sprain he will probably have problems with the stability of the ankle going forward (be more prone to sprains). I am not sure about your experience but with me I had 3 severe sprains of my left ankle in my teen years. Now if I hold up my foot and someone grabs the bottom, on tries to move it side to side, there is play in my ankle like it's a steering wheel of a car. I used to roll it just walking down the street after those sprains...
Yeah, those bad sprains can cause ligament laxity. I've never had more than a mild ankle sprain, but that torn peroneal caused me problems for years on that side. Several hamstring injuries and hip flexor problems in four years of running in college. Hopefully the immobilization for two weeks doesn't shrink his leg like it did mine. Of course, he's going to have a much better rehab program...
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 5, 2016 21:18:10 GMT -5
Just think of how many times we've been complaining about the Sox pitchers not getting the calls recently. CV was behind the plate for most of them. Not saying he is to blame for that, but most of his supposed value came from getting his pitchers extra strike calls that have not been there of late. I still feel bad for sounding like an ***hole in this thread, but it's baffling to me how much the general opinion on CV went south quickly. I remember hearing a lot about how he was stabilizing the position and helping the pitchers and how gritty he was and everything. I was never big on him so maybe I was always skeptical, but I honestly think he's never done enough to justify the hype. Blake was always IMO a much better prospect, I wasn't against him playing LF though because it looked like it would be his best chance at getting some playing time. And he deserves that playing time, that swing is awesome.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jun 5, 2016 21:19:36 GMT -5
Just think of how many times we've been complaining about the Sox pitchers not getting the calls recently. CV was behind the plate for most of them. Not saying he is to blame for that, but most of his supposed value came from getting his pitchers extra strike calls that have not been there of late. And last year he was widely publicized as being at the very top of the heap in this regard, with a large proportion of his value being derived from that skill as people commented over and over about how important a skill it was and how it was so overlooked. At the time I asked the question of whether, when his skills were so widely publicized, whether umpires would react to the information floating around about how good he was at stealing strikes by starting to not give strikes when they saw his glove moving. There was some discussion about that, with significant opinion being that he was so good and so smooth at what he was doing that "offsetting" what he was doing wouldn't happen. Fast forward to this year, after his injury. Christian has struggled some offensively, which isn't surprising for a young player trying to re-acclimate himself after most of a year away from the game. His throwing isn't back to what it was, which also isn't surprising as he deals with the after-effects of his surgery. Passed balls were always a bit problematic for him, so a recurrence of that, while annoying, may not be all that surprising. But the pitch framing he was always able to do, it is a skill involved with his uninjured arm, and yet, here we are with his pitch framing benefits largely negated, both absolutely and relative to the rest of the catching brotherhood. So now let's revisit the question. Has his pitch framing really deteriorated somehow, because of inactivity or some other shortcoming on Vazquez's part? Or is it possible that he is doing things the same way, but home plate umpires are evaluating differently what he is doing? Is this something that we can even tell? Does he "look different" trying to frame pitches this season? I for one am not excited about seeing all this negativity about Vazquez so soon after his return from a major injury. It wasn't all that long ago that people were singing his praises to high heaven and now there's a significant amount of carping. I know the contemporary world turns on the question of "what have you done for me lately?" But now calling Swihart "the best catcher" just seems a little off-putting to me. And anyway, none of it matters because with the sudden injuries Vazquez is going to do the bulk of the catching for awhile, for sure. Bat him 9th, hope he can be at least mediocre at the plate (especially given that the offensive standard for catchers isn't all that high), and let's see if he can work through his defensive issues. EDIT: OOPS, DonC beat me to some of this. I guess that's what happens to a long-winded poster!!!
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Post by theghostofjoecronin on Jun 5, 2016 21:24:49 GMT -5
There's a difference between run-of-the-mill bad (e.g., Vazquez's Steamer-projected .255/.323/.366, 84 wRC+ line) and borderline unplayably awful (his current .223/.269/.330, 54 wRC+ line). Vazquez has played like the latter rather than the former this year. There's also the fact that he hasn't looked as good defensively this year-- he's flashed his penchant for passed balls, his arm strength/accuracy isn't all the way there, and his framing has been averagish rather than elite. Probably doesn't help that he has had 1 game off since May 18th. He was rushed back from rehab, and been overworked after not having played in a game since 2014. He should be catching 60% of the games, not 80%. As for Swihart, I'm glad it wasn't anything more serious than a sprain, I was a bit worried with how much he hyperextended his foot. Great attempt at a catch, but it does show how having little experience in LF at Fenway can hurt you (literally). Castillo is the exception, I thought he played great there last year with no prior experience.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 5, 2016 21:33:28 GMT -5
I have thought and still continue to think that long-term the Red Sox should be grooming Swihart to be their catcher.
I think Vazquez will improve with the bat and find his way to mediocrity and I think his defense will improve and he will be a defensive asset, but I don't think he's as otherworldly as has been indicated.
I think he'll be a much better defensive catcher than Swihart, but I think Swihart, if given a chance, will become a decent defensive catcher. His game calling is something he needs to improve upon and playing LF doesn't help it. I think, in time, his bat will be a big asset for the catching position.
Temporarily, I could see the sense of going with Vazquez to improve the defense and get a more experienced game caller and I could see Swihart being an upgrade on whatever they had in LF, although I'd prefer the Sox find themselves a LH bat of the DeAza variety to tide themselves over and let Swihart work on his defensive issues at Pawtucket.
I do believe that Vazquez is a really good defensive catcher, but the pitch framing stuff, I thought, was a bit over the top. It was such a relatively small sample size. Honestly, I haven't seen any major evidence that his pitch calling is Tek-like or anything near that or any major evidence that he's constantly stealing strike calls. He's got a strong arm, and at the moment, a noodle bat.
It's a shame that he does need to be pinch-hit for, especially given the fact that they lack a good lefty off the bench to pinch-hit (was Murphy's bat that washed up?)
Honestly I prefer the guy with a good bat who could be a decent defensive catcher rather than the guy with a mediocre bat who's good defensively. Good defensive catchers who can't hit aren't that unique and hard to get, or at least I think so. They're usually backup catchers. I think Vazquez will be better than that, in a Carlos Ruiz sort of way, but I'm not seeing him as a Yadier Molina at this point (he's more Benji at this point).
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Post by theghostofjoecronin on Jun 5, 2016 21:53:09 GMT -5
I for one am not excited about seeing all this negativity about Vazquez so soon after his return from a major injury. It wasn't all that long ago that people were singing his praises to high heaven and now there's a significant amount of carping. I know the contemporary world turns on the question of "what have you done for me lately?" But now calling Swihart "the best catcher" just seems a little off-putting to me. And anyway, none of it matters because with the sudden injuries Vazquez is going to do the bulk of the catching for awhile, for sure. Bat him 9th, hope he can be at least mediocre at the plate ( especially given that the offensive standard for catchers isn't all that high), and let's see if he can work through his defensive issues. EDIT: OOPS, DonC beat me to some of this. I guess that's what happens to a long-winded poster!!! It's seemingly at an all time low. Minus: Ramos, Lucroy, Realmuto, Vogt, Molina, Posey, Perez, Castillo, Wieters, Cervelli, and Rupp you have: Derek Norris: .204/.262/.365 Brian McCann: .220/.320/.393 Chris Iannetta: .222/.319/.347 Tucker Barnhart: .244/.303/.336 Russell Martin: .197/.264/.287 Yan Gomes: .176/.213/.365 Dioner Navarro: .226/.266/.348 Kurt Suzuki: .227/.281/.300 Carlos Perez: .203/.248/.317 AJP: .211/.246/.254 Curt Casali: .182/.256/.391 Jarrod Saltalamacchia: .192/.292/.465 Jason Castro: .208/.344/.384 (40% K rate) Some of those guys are making a ton of money too ($32m combined between McCann and Martin) and Vazquez is better behind the dish on a bad day then a lot of these are on a good day. Vaz will have his ups and downs this year, and he's still regaining strength in his arm and still getting accustomed to the daily grind of a baseball season. I'm not too worried and I'm especially not worried about the bat of our #9 hitter when this team is leading the majors in runs scored and could end up breaking some records come seasons end.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 5, 2016 22:06:43 GMT -5
I still feel bad for sounding like an ***hole in this thread, but it's baffling to me how much the general opinion on CV went south quickly. . It's really much more a function of those who were skeptical of him in the first place having their feelings amplified by his poor play coupled with the mismanagement of Swihart, and those who were so high on him being quieter because his recent play has been pretty hard to defend. Honestly, if Swihart didn't exist I'd probably be fine with giving Vazquez the starting job long-term and letting him try to run with it. I see him settling in a second-division starter who has season where his bat plays up and he's even more valuable than that. But Swihart is a player whose defense improved steadily and whose bat is already above average for a catcher, and he's 20 months younger than Vazquez.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 5, 2016 22:38:33 GMT -5
Been there, done that (when I was younger and played soccer) in terms of what Swihart is going to have to go through. I am guessing it will be a good 6 weeks, minimum, before he can even start thinking about running again. The ankle probably will swell to the size of a grapefruit and turn about 5 different colors (I remember yellow, purple, red, and a couple other colors). Still it is better than doing his Achilles... I can also relate. It was a pickup game at UNLV many years ago, my buddy and I against one of the players and someone else looking for a game. It was decided that, since my friend was taller than me, he'd get the full treatment and I'd face the scrub. I faked that guy out of his jock to drive by twice, whereupon he backed off and I hit a few jumpers. That didn't go over well and the next time I shot, it was my turn for the full treatment. Up in the air for another jumper, I got hammered from the side and came down full on the ankle which was twisting as I fell. It was months before I was anywhere near normal, and the ankle has never been the same. It's much weaker and I'm always in fear of re-twisting which I did about three years ago, sliding off a snowbank I'd shoveled up. Ouch is right, with the full kaleidoscope of colors you lay out there, once again. It will be a while, and it may require more than rest.
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