SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
8/18-8/21 Red Sox @ Tigers Series Thread
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 19, 2016 7:51:50 GMT -5
Because he puts the worst pitchers in the game at the most crucial time. Pitch Tazawa and Abad in 16-2 games instead.The only way to make this team Farrell-proof is to have 7 identically good relief pitchers so he can't make any bad choices. Although he'd probably overuse certain ones anyway making them less effective. I love this rationale. And I am sorry to pick on you here, because I know jmei was writing this regarding Barnes, and there have been many more posts like this. But I would ask, is there anyone here who could tell me the next 16-2 is going to come up? Or can someone tell me how many 3-1 games are going to occur over the next 5 days. The whole point is that JF has to make real time decisions, with only past usage as a barometer of workload. I hate losing this game, but the bullpen problems have been addressed by DD, multiple times through the offseason and year. The unit has collapsed, in part, because of the starting pitching woes throughout the year. Maybe JF made a mistake here, I don't know, but you just can't marginalize a reliever and pitch the same ones every game, or you'll risk overusing the good ones, as many think JF has done with Tazawa. Explain to me the rationale behind bringing in Abad vs Davis with men on base and no outs in a 2 run game (instead of Ross, your much better lefty) then leaving in Abad vs Wieters? Now we won that game because Mookie bailed out Farrell but that was an incredibly idiotic series of decisions which even some Farrell apologists recognizing how stupid that was.
|
|
|
Post by huskies15 on Aug 19, 2016 7:52:03 GMT -5
I know yesterday turned into an extremely winnable game, but if you were to pick a game that seemed like a sure loss in this stretch it had to be that one right? Day game after a night game/travel, with Buchholz on the mound? It screamed loss, and if we had lost 6-2 I doubt there would be much of a reaction. It hurt but time to see what a full lineup (maybe without Bogaerts) does the rest of the series.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 19, 2016 8:04:29 GMT -5
I know yesterday turned into an extremely winnable game, but if you were to pick a game that seemed like a sure loss in this stretch it had to be that one right? Day game after a night game/travel, with Buchholz on the mound? It screamed loss, and if we had lost 6-2 I doubt there would be much of a reaction. It hurt but time to see what a full lineup (maybe without Bogaerts) does the rest of the series. You're right. A 6-2 loss would have barely elicited a shrug. Turning another game that should have been in the win column into a loss, one that should have been avoided given the circumstances heading into the bottom of the 8th is a different matter. I think what worries a number of us is that this pattern is what likely kills the Red Sox in the playoffs. Anything can happen if and when they get there, but I wouldn't anticipate the Red Sox getting blown away by the competition - the talent is kind of too good for that to be very likely. It's more that the Sox will be involved in a nail-biter and they will either blow the lead late in the game or fail to come up with a key hit when they trail by a run with the bases loaded and no outs or something like that. It's almost like what we've been seeing is a sign of things to come. If the crucial game is close, the Red Sox will find a way to lose it. I hope that changes, but when the game is really really tight I anticipate the Sox will find a way to lose. I hope that's not the script come October. Maybe it won't be, but the one common denominator is Farrell in all this. I normally think of the players as the ones mostly at fault but when as a team they underachieve and find ways to lose games that they really shouldn't it's really hard not to look at the manager as one of the biggest reasons, and one of the biggest game tasks a manager has is how to manipulate his bullpen so that he has the best matchups available. A lot of times that hasn't been the case.
|
|
|
Post by mgoetze on Aug 19, 2016 8:17:41 GMT -5
So the new excuse for Farrell is "I thought we were going to lose anyway, so it's OK he blew the game"?
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Aug 19, 2016 8:30:34 GMT -5
Does anybody remember a season with even half as many gut-wrenching losses as this season? 2003. 2011.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 19, 2016 8:31:33 GMT -5
I know yesterday turned into an extremely winnable game, but if you were to pick a game that seemed like a sure loss in this stretch it had to be that one right? Day game after a night game/travel, with Buchholz on the mound? It screamed loss, and if we had lost 6-2 I doubt there would be much of a reaction. It hurt but time to see what a full lineup (maybe without Bogaerts) does the rest of the series. Sure, hope you feel the same way in the 7th game of the World Series. If not, then you shouldn't be saying it. No team can survive a manager continually giving away runs and games by not making the correct pretty simple decisions like bringing in anyone but Tazawa or Abad into a 2 run game in the 8th. I can't even believe anyone is on the other side of the fire Farrell argument anymore. I'm really getting annoyed with DDo for this. He should either fire Farrell or bring the hammer down on him with simple stats like the Tazawa splits since June or that Ross has been our best reliever this year and never gets trusted for anything. It cannot be that hard to sit down with him and say "stop being a moron with Ross and Tazawa before you literally waste Papi's final season." It's pretty clear to me that someone in the front office did this with him in 2013 when he went with David Ross as the catcher in the World Series. That is not a Farrell move.
|
|
tjb21
Veteran
Posts: 671
Member is Online
|
Post by tjb21 on Aug 19, 2016 8:37:31 GMT -5
That game bummed me out, man.
Let's win the next 3.
|
|
|
Post by dcsoxfan on Aug 19, 2016 9:02:08 GMT -5
DD can't be blamed for the injuries to Koji or Smith. But his trades for Abad and Ziegler have both been whiffs so far. While I do think that Farrell gets too much blame on this forum, he has made some questionable bullpen moves lately, to say the least. I think he needs to win a playoff series to keep his job. Anything less and he's gone. Why not; weren't these relatively predictable events? I don't want to oversell this point, because a lot of the problems with the bullpen are just bad luck, and the larger point I want to make has only become obvious to me in hindsight. However I think the GM deserves at least some of the blame for the poor bullpen. A Major League bullpen will on average throw around 500 innings in a season, and a good bullpen needs at least 200 to 250 innings from pitchers it can trust. The Red Sox plan for achieving those high quality innings was based on four pitchers -- Kimbrel, Uehara, Tazawa and Smith -- all of whom arguably had potential durability issues. It was a high risk, high reward bullpen built for a team that "had" to play deep into October this year. That three of these pitchers got hurt is bad luck, but not exactly low probability. I might also add that outside of Kimbrel, none of these pitchers can at this point be considered likely to contribute in 2017, so a full bullpen rebuild will likely be needed this offseason. In fairness much of this is bad luck and I'm not really sure what options were available, but the FO has poured a lot of resources into improving the bullpen without actually doing so. The manager may not be helping the situation, but he's hardly the only one to blame.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 9:19:26 GMT -5
Nothing more frustrating than watching a bullpen turn wins into losses. This team just can't seem to get all its parts moving in the same direction. Now that the rotation has stabilized, the bullpen has fallen apart. I still think this team makes the playoffs, but not having a relief pitcher capable of throwing strikes is worrisome.
I know Ziegler was put in a tough spot yesterday, but walking the #8 hitter with the bases loaded is inexcusable, and some of the pitches were not close. That can't happen. Throw the ball down the middle. If he hits it, who cares? Make him earn it.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,501
|
Post by nomar on Aug 19, 2016 9:51:16 GMT -5
Nothing more frustrating than watching a bullpen turn wins into losses. This team just can't seem to get all its parts moving in the same direction. Now that the rotation has stabilized, the bullpen has fallen apart. I still think this team makes the playoffs, but not having a relief pitcher capable of throwing strikes is worrisome. I know Ziegler was put in a tough spot yesterday, but walking the #8 hitter with the bases loaded is inexcusable, and some of the pitches were not close. That can't happen. Throw the ball down the middle. If he hits it, who cares? Make him earn it. He was probably trying to. Sometimes you lose your release point for a few pitches and can't throw it where you're trying to, even directly over the plate. It's probably even harder to find that release point when all you can think about is that you may allow the winning run to score. Tough position.
|
|
|
Post by sox fan in nc on Aug 19, 2016 10:05:00 GMT -5
The thing that chaps me is that we could have "stole" that game. Now we face their toughest pitcher (as do they face our toughest). I can see a 2-1 game tonight going either way. I know we shelled Greinke the other day, but that was @ home. It's really hard to watch a game this year after the 6th inning.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 19, 2016 10:54:10 GMT -5
We're now about 5 wins behind the win expectancy at this point which sounds about right as far as games that were thrown away.
|
|
|
Post by p23w on Aug 19, 2016 11:20:01 GMT -5
If Tazawa is to have value to this team he needs to either suck it up, or let it be known when he is less than 100%. Tazawa even told the media he was being overused. If you knew anything about Japanese culture, you would understand how remarkable that was. In any case you can be sure the media weren't the first people he talked to about it. I live with a Lady born in Japan. I have worked with and for Japanese people. I think I have a pretty good grasp on Japanese culture. Tazawa telling the local media that he was being overused.... in English? Local media is bi-lingual? through an interpreter? One cannot be sure this was communicated to others first. In any event this is not about culture. When Tazawa was first signed by the Red Sox he was a starting pitcher with great promise. For whatever reasons he got an arm injury. It would be very "Japanese" (a-la Tanaka) to try to work through the discomfort. I don't know if Tazawa tried to do this, but the reports I read concerning his surgery said that the damage was extensive. In any event this is not about culture sensitivity, this is about what is best for the Red Sox. Tazawa needs to be taken off the roster at this point. If he needs special care, again, like Tanaka, so be it. My contention is that you can give special attention to talent, provided they contribute. Tanaka will probably never throw 200IP for the Yankees. He may never throw 180 innings in a season, but the innings he does pitch are quality. That is all I am asking of Tazawa. If Junichi cannot throw 60 quality innings for the Red Sox, then I don't want him. The team has to account for some 1450 innings from it's pitcher over the course of a year. The goal (mine) has always to have 5 SP account for 900 IP and the bullpen account for the remainder. More innings from the starters would be terrific, but I'm not seeing that from this staff. Carrying 8 pitchers in the bullpen (I'd prefer 7) means that the average RP needs to be accountable for about 69IP. Given a closer limit of, say 60 and one or two "specialists" at the same innings limit. The remaining relief pitchers in an 8 man bullpen need to average 74IP. Since Tazawa is not a "specialist" (Zeigler is the closest I can identify as a specialist on this team), then Tazawa needs to throw a reliable 74 innings in order to be on this roster. Problem is, he has never thrown more than 68IP in any one year. We don't have any "rubber armed" relievers (like a Gossage or a Timlin) who can be called on 80 times a year or throw 100+ innings. We don't have 5 starters that are going to provide 900+ innings this year. Ergo, we have no room on this roster for a relief pitcher who is neither a closer nor a specialist and cannot provide a reliable 60IP.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 19, 2016 11:46:16 GMT -5
Tazawa even told the media he was being overused. If you knew anything about Japanese culture, you would understand how remarkable that was. In any case you can be sure the media weren't the first people he talked to about it. I live with a Lady born in Japan. I have worked with and for Japanese people. I think I have a pretty good grasp on Japanese culture. Tazawa telling the local media that he was being overused.... in English? Local media is bi-lingual? through an interpreter? One cannot be sure this was communicated to others first. In any event this is not about culture. When Tazawa was first signed by the Red Sox he was a starting pitcher with great promise. For whatever reasons he got an arm injury. It would be very "Japanese" (a-la Tanaka) to try to work through the discomfort. I don't know if Tazawa tried to do this, but the reports I read concerning his surgery said that the damage was extensive. In any event this is not about culture sensitivity, this is about what is best for the Red Sox. Tazawa needs to be taken off the roster at this point. If he needs special care, again, like Tanaka, so be it. My contention is that you can give special attention to talent, provided they contribute. Tanaka will probably never throw 200IP for the Yankees. He may never throw 180 innings in a season, but the innings he does pitch are quality. That is all I am asking of Tazawa. If Junichi cannot throw 60 quality innings for the Red Sox, then I don't want him. The team has to account for some 1450 innings from it's pitcher over the course of a year. The goal (mine) has always to have 5 SP account for 900 IP and the bullpen account for the remainder. More innings from the starters would be terrific, but I'm not seeing that from this staff. Carrying 8 pitchers in the bullpen (I'd prefer 7) means that the average RP needs to be accountable for about 69IP. Given a closer limit of, say 60 and one or two "specialists" at the same innings limit. The remaining relief pitchers in an 8 man bullpen need to average 74IP. Since Tazawa is not a "specialist" (Zeigler is the closest I can identify as a specialist on this team), then Tazawa needs to throw a reliable 74 innings in order to be on this roster. Problem is, he has never thrown more than 68IP in any one year. We don't have any "rubber armed" relievers (like a Gossage or a Timlin) who can be called on 80 times a year or throw 100+ innings. We don't have 5 starters that are going to provide 900+ innings this year. Ergo, we have no room on this roster for a relief pitcher who is neither a closer nor a specialist and cannot provide a reliable 60IP. It's not the number of innings as much as it is getting up to warm up multiple times in too many games in a row, whether he pitches or not. It seemed like Farrell wanted to or actually did use him every single game no matter what the score. Farrell has done the exact same thing to him every year for 4 years now. You say you don't want him if he can't throw 60 quality innings, but every single person wants him until Farrell wears him out. Too late now, but maybe he should have done something differently to preserve his arm for later in the season?
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Aug 19, 2016 11:55:24 GMT -5
To complete his full transformation into this decade's Scott Proctor, Tazawa will move to a different team in 2017, only to see Farrell hired by that team in 2018.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 19, 2016 12:54:53 GMT -5
6 of the last 15 losses have been 1 run games, 5 were 2 run games.
|
|
|
Post by bosox81 on Aug 19, 2016 13:12:07 GMT -5
6 of the last 15 losses have been 1 run games, 5 were 2 run games. To be fair, the vast majority of those 11 losses were not on Farrell. Many of them were on the bullpen/defense/offense. I would say about two or three of those 11 were on Farrell, which is still very bad.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,501
|
Post by nomar on Aug 19, 2016 13:21:05 GMT -5
Fulmer is due for some ERA regression.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 19, 2016 13:26:32 GMT -5
Explain to me the rationale behind bringing in Abad vs Davis with men on base and no outs in a 2 run game (instead of Ross, your much better lefty) then leaving in Abad vs Wieters? Now we won that game because Mookie bailed out Farrell but that was an incredibly idiotic series of decisions which even some Farrell apologists recognizing how stupid that was. I have never said that JF doesn't make bad decisions (I mentioned the barnes situation for the 3rd inning the other night)....you guys follow this stuff more closely than I do....so i am willing to concede that his bullpen management is substandard. Honestly, I don't want to make following the Red Sox that complicated, and I think I am as big a fan as anyone on this site, irregardless. What I have posted and, what I think is totally lost in these parts, is that there are strategic bullpen management requirements that come along with making these decisions in a 162 game season. What gets tossed around here on a nightly basis, are tactical decisions. I stand by my contention that you can't just bury a guy in the bullpen, because of how baseball is currently played. If you do, you risk your depth (which probably isn't that great to begin with) and health of your players. Apparently, people around here don't think that pitchers can slump also, if one has given up 10 runs in his last 5 apprearances, he should never be used, except in low leverage situations, which noone can predict. I just don't agree with that. The Farrell hating has gotten so reflexive, I think people can't see anything but blaming him for the teams problems.
|
|
|
Post by soxcentral on Aug 19, 2016 13:42:10 GMT -5
Jerry, I think you make an excellent point about not burying someone in this environment of bullpen usage. To me though, that is exactly why Farrell needs to go.
It is ROSS who has been buried all year long, for no statistical or overuse reason whatsoever, and it cost us a worn down Tazawa (and Uehara) who a few months ago was simply dominant. Myself and others pointed out at the time that this is a ticking time bomb, and here we are.
There is no reason to scream day to day about this. If upper management is fine with burning assets unnecessarily then there is no need to change managers. Keep trading for more bullpen help. If they are as upset as some people here, myself included, for seeing Tazawa (and Uehara) basically lost for the most important part of the season while Ross still does not get the higher leverage chances he's worthy of, then a move needs to be made. Unfortunately the damage for this year I think has already been done.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 19, 2016 15:00:39 GMT -5
Jerry, I think you make an excellent point about not burying someone in this environment of bullpen usage. To me though, that is exactly why Farrell needs to go. It is ROSS who has been buried all year long, for no statistical or overuse reason whatsoever, and it cost us a worn down Tazawa (and Uehara) who a few months ago was simply dominant. Myself and others pointed out at the time that this is a ticking time bomb, and here we are. There is no reason to scream day to day about this. If upper management is fine with burning assets unnecessarily then there is no need to change managers. Keep trading for more bullpen help. If they are as upset as some people here, myself included, for seeing Tazawa (and Uehara) basically lost for the most important part of the season while Ross still does not get the higher leverage chances he's worthy of, then a move needs to be made. Unfortunately the damage for this year I think has already been done. I totally agree and appreciate this response. The Ross situation has been mentioned alot, and it's unfortunate that JF hasn't had to go on the record on why. In reality though, we may be talking about an extra 20 innings...at most, that could have been given to him. As much as JF decisions have hurt the team, the problem has been on the whole staff....the coaching....performance.. The pitching has only recently normalized, and by no accident, we are winning more games.
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 19, 2016 15:27:28 GMT -5
On the road yesterday, and only checked in in the 8th, just to catch the score. This one looks to have been painful, but I'll probably go back and watch the sky fall anyway.
I've been a big fan of Tazawa, but a strong critic of the usage pattern for the guy. It was obvious a year and a half ago that this day would come if they kept it up. They should simply shelve him till he's either better, or prepare to do without him for the remainder of the season.
This is a year when he could have added a lot of value for a stretch run. I don't want to be cynical about it, but since he's a free agent after this season, it almost makes it feel like he's been seen as disposable. That's an ugly thought, but it's one that's hard to escape.
|
|
|
Post by geostorm on Aug 19, 2016 15:36:20 GMT -5
Okay...at the end of the most recent Red Sox Orioles gameday thread, I used the imagery of a motorcycle, reviewing how much blame is to be parsed out to the rider (JF), mechanic (DD/FO) or "parts"/players...Alex Speier, in today's 108, uses "buttons". I 100% agree w/ his final line, assessing responsibility for yesterday, and this season, to date.
From 108 -
"Let’s get this out of the way: Junichi Tazawa should not have been pitching in the eighth inning Thursday, and he shouldn’t have remained on the mound to give up hits to each of the first three batters of the inning. At this stage of his season and career, he’s not a reliable eighth-inning option. Since his return from the DL, opponents are now hitting .364/.436/.697 against him.
At this stage of their respective careers, Brad Ziegler was probably a better choice to open the eighth. That doesn’t mean that he was a good choice to open the eighth.
In his last nine appearances, Ziegler is 1-4 with four blown saves. He has allowed six runs (four earned) in 8 2/3 innings. Opponents are hitting .351/.455/.459 against him in that span. Six of those appearances have come in clean innings, with Ziegler going 0-3 with two blown saves and opponents hitting .400/.464/.560 in those games.
Given that Ian Kinsler – who was leading off the eighth – owned a .455/.500/.636 line in 12 plate appearances against Ziegler, and that Miguel Cabrera (batting third in the inning) has a career .667/.600/1.000 line against the submariner, it’s not hard to see why there might be some reluctance to use Ziegler in that situation.
Based on the recent evidence offered by both pitchers, Farrell faced a choice between not ideal and what appeared to be – probably at the time, certainly after the fact – worse. He elected the worse choice, a cooked Tazawa who simply hasn’t shown anything to justify an eighth-inning appearance against Detroit’s best hitters.
Farrell failed to push the right buttons. He bears responsibility for that. So do the faulty buttons (the pitchers themselves) and the collector of the buttons (the Red Sox front office). "
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Aug 19, 2016 16:30:23 GMT -5
On the road yesterday, and only checked in in the 8 th, just to catch the score. This one looks to have been painful, but I'll probably go back and watch the sky fall anyway. I've been a big fan of Tazawa, but a strong critic of the usage pattern for the guy. It was obvious a year and a half ago that this day would come if they kept it up. They should simply shelve him till he's either better, or prepare to do without him for the remainder of the season. This is a year when he could have added a lot of value for a stretch run. I don't want to be cynical about it, but since he's a free agent after this season, it almost makes it feel like he's been seen as disposable. That's an ugly thought, but it's one that's hard to escape. "Every time I call it a game you call it a business! But every time I call it a business you bastards call it a game!" Player to management in the book North Dallas 40.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 19, 2016 17:38:24 GMT -5
Okay...at the end of the most recent Red Sox Orioles gameday thread, I used the imagery of a motorcycle, reviewing how much blame is to be parsed out to the rider (JF), mechanic (DD/FO) or "parts"/players...Alex Speier, in today's 108, uses "buttons". I 100% agree w/ his final line, assessing responsibility for yesterday, and this season, to date. From 108 - "Let’s get this out of the way: Junichi Tazawa should not have been pitching in the eighth inning Thursday, and he shouldn’t have remained on the mound to give up hits to each of the first three batters of the inning. At this stage of his season and career, he’s not a reliable eighth-inning option. Since his return from the DL, opponents are now hitting .364/.436/.697 against him. At this stage of their respective careers, Brad Ziegler was probably a better choice to open the eighth. That doesn’t mean that he was a good choice to open the eighth. In his last nine appearances, Ziegler is 1-4 with four blown saves. He has allowed six runs (four earned) in 8 2/3 innings. Opponents are hitting .351/.455/.459 against him in that span. Six of those appearances have come in clean innings, with Ziegler going 0-3 with two blown saves and opponents hitting .400/.464/.560 in those games. Given that Ian Kinsler – who was leading off the eighth – owned a .455/.500/.636 line in 12 plate appearances against Ziegler, and that Miguel Cabrera (batting third in the inning) has a career .667/.600/1.000 line against the submariner, it’s not hard to see why there might be some reluctance to use Ziegler in that situation. Based on the recent evidence offered by both pitchers, Farrell faced a choice between not ideal and what appeared to be – probably at the time, certainly after the fact – worse. He elected the worse choice, a cooked Tazawa who simply hasn’t shown anything to justify an eighth-inning appearance against Detroit’s best hitters. Farrell failed to push the right buttons. He bears responsibility for that. So do the faulty buttons (the pitchers themselves) and the collector of the buttons (the Red Sox front office). " We could change that analogy to a car where Farrell chooses to put a horse in front of a Ferrari to pull it instead of choosing far superior gasoline. And it was probably an old injured horse that is ready to be put down. But he always did it that way because he won a race 30 years ago against another car which broke down in the middle of the race.
|
|
|