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Writers elect no one to the HOF
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Post by raftsox on Jan 14, 2013 9:20:01 GMT -5
For me greenies are not in the same category as Steroids as I understand the potential impact. They do not make you bigger, stronger, faster, better. I appreciate your "stickittoedness". But, I believe that you're wrong. Steroids do not make you better, period. They do not improve athletic prowess. They can make you bigger, stronger and faster if one trains properly. The same benefits can be derived from amphetamines if used to augment strength and conditioning training. There will likely be a greater need from the body to repair itself, but if one sleeps properly, eats properly and takes advantage of other restoration techniques and tools then similar benefits could occur. I also look at the effect that Greenies (and their like) have on "in game enhancement" which is, in my opinion, much more pronounced than steroids. Hyper-alertness manifests itself in quicker reactions and a greater neuro-muscular connection. For example: we've all heard stories of the mothers lifting a car off a child. That can happen because most of us only use a small percentage of our latent strength. If one increases the ability to recruit more muscle fibers at a given time (ie. greater neuro-muscular activity) then you can see benefits that are not normally possible. What this means in baseball terms is that in a state of hyper-alertness, someone can perform feats of athleticism (hitting home runs, beating out infield hits, etc.) that they normally would not be able to do.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jan 14, 2013 20:59:19 GMT -5
For me greenies are not in the same category as Steroids as I understand the potential impact. They do not make you bigger, stronger, faster, better. I appreciate your "stickittoedness". But, I believe that you're wrong. Steroids do not make you better, period. They do not improve athletic prowess. They can make you bigger, stronger and faster if one trains properly. The same benefits can be derived from amphetamines if used to augment strength and conditioning training. There will likely be a greater need from the body to repair itself, but if one sleeps properly, eats properly and takes advantage of other restoration techniques and tools then similar benefits could occur. I also look at the effect that Greenies (and their like) have on "in game enhancement" which is, in my opinion, much more pronounced than steroids. Hyper-alertness manifests itself in quicker reactions and a greater neuro-muscular connection. For example: we've all heard stories of the mothers lifting a car off a child. That can happen because most of us only use a small percentage of our latent strength. If one increases the ability to recruit more muscle fibers at a given time (ie. greater neuro-muscular activity) then you can see benefits that are not normally possible. What this means in baseball terms is that in a state of hyper-alertness, someone can perform feats of athleticism (hitting home runs, beating out infield hits, etc.) that they normally would not be able to do. We will continue to disagree but agreeably. And, I admire your sticking intractably to your position. I think all the press and MLB attention to steroids as PEDs and apparently not so with greenies speaks volumes. Regardless, I don't recall players in the 60s and 70s putting up the kind of disparate numbers that Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGuire et al did late in career. But, disregarding the age factor, where were the 60 & 70 home run hitters back then? To me the evidence is very strong that steroids do make you better as defined by increasing stat lines unless one volunteers to be blinded. Sosa had three years of greater than 60 hrs. That's better period! McGwire & Bonds hit more than 70! I believe that someday a Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro or someone else not named Canseco will have a soul-cleansing moment a la the upcoming Lance Armstrong partial confessional. These guys are all ultimate competitors and at the high end. MLB, the press etc. are only their current opposition. They are dug-in. They do not want (perhaps cannot stomach) giving in and admitting what they did. They surely do not want to risk losing the ego-stroking acclaim especially when they know many of their brethren took the same drugs. And, they do not want to come to grips with the fact that their stats were inflated by that choice. IMO they are being deceptive even to themselves. They want to publicly say "Hey, I accomplished all these feats!" give me adulation but then not accept the fact that the adulation is based on false premise. Anyway, I am opposed to any established performance enhancer on the very basis of integrity and in support of those who do ' walk the walk'. HOF voting is imperfect and no man-made mechanism can make it otherwise.
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Post by Gwell55 on Jan 14, 2013 22:27:24 GMT -5
I think all the press and MLB attention to steroids as PEDs and apparently not so with greenies speaks volumes. Regardless, I don't recall players in the 60s and 70s putting up the kind of disparate numbers that Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGuire et al did late in career. But, disregarding the age factor, where were the 60 & 70 home run hitters back then? To me the evidence is very strong that steroids do make you better as defined by increasing stat lines unless one volunteers to be blinded. Sosa had three years of greater than 60 hrs. That's better period! McGwire & Bonds hit more than 70! One note Amphetamines hurt your body worse than steroids ever did. The reason is they draw off your natural fats in your muscle and cause the deterioration of muscle by taking out the fat which waste your body away and this causes you to not do as good later in your drug use cycle (just like those top athletes that wore down during the season and over the years couldn't get back to their elite level.) So at the end of their career their muscle mass had the effect of wasting away and the toning in their muscles couldn't sustain those end of career big HR numbers. Steroids added muscle to sustain long term use by training that muscle to keep it packed on for the longer time (during the season their bodies could keep healthier.) That is why they had more (HR) at the end of their career and that muscle addition is also why more pitchers were stronger at the end of their career then the earlier pitchers. Both are wrong, but their is no "Steroids" are worse because they work better in a character debate. Actually if you look at the game between batter and pitcher they may have evened the field for the pitcher for the greenie era ... but that is just an opinion and I'm not sure how correct it might be. But to the end of time I think they both are wrong but the owners didn't and they pushed it to the players don't think they didn't well at least until it was about to hurt those owners pocketbooks! I really see your point here and I agree that I too wish that they or those closest to them if they pass do admit that they did partake... And I hope that it starts with Mays, Stargell, and Aaron and then continues on down to all of the guilty parties. All of them have evidence against them that they took Performance enhancing drugs and need the same vote of equality one and all. But it will never happen as the hypocrisy of all of us known as human beings sadly gets in the way. Maybe until that time then we should bar anyone from visiting anything in the HOF... after all fair for one is fair for all. Right
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 15, 2013 2:06:01 GMT -5
It's all a slippery slope and we have to figure out where to draw the line. My vote is that the line should be drawn at a level more strict than: 'let everything go - everyone was doing it'. So why does the "it was the style at the time" excuse apply to racists and not steroid users? Because: a. The players weren't (necessarily) the racists. It wasn't the white players' call to not play with black players. b. The Negro leagues have players in the hall of fame just like the all white leagues. So there isn't necessarily any advantage gained or lost though these segregation. The baseball hall of fame can encompass everyone - not just MLB. c. As far as the obvious HUGE statistical change from steroids and other PEDs - it is hard to figure whether a lack of segregation would have changed the game statistically in the same manner. I would think it to be unlikely based on the average performance statistics before and after integration - but it is hard to prove one way or another. I hope people realize that there is far more at stake here than the hall of fame. If the message is sent that if you cheat by using steroids to have a hall of fame career then it only encourages cheating. People need to get over this 'steroid era' bullshit. Some players took steroids before this time and many more will continue to do so with whatever the newest drug or performance enhancer may be - that's competition. You can either encourage players to cheat or discourage them from cheating. A line has to be drawn somewhere unless you simply want to let everything go - which is dangerous and will quickly create a sport unlike the game as we currently think of it, but it may be damn entertaining.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 15, 2013 2:19:29 GMT -5
I would like the decisions to be made by a one person committee consisting of me. Screw you. There will be two of us. All conversations regarding acceptance will only be rendered after 6 Irish Car Bombs each. A third party, consisting of 1 lingerie model will record our decisions, and cover the bar tab. If I substitute a Jager-bomb for a irish car bomb is that an illegal stimulant? If I follow it up with a screwdriver, am I juicing? So confused....
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 15, 2013 2:22:29 GMT -5
Ok gweg you're coming around to the well-established fact that steroids are PEDs so that is progress. Once again tho, what the writers did was right not wrong because PEDs violate the integrity clause in baseball and their usage should offend all true baseball fans in any case. You are a baseball player and take illicit PEDs, you are cheating. Cheating sacrifices integrity..plain & simple. And, I hope that this voting result discourages ballplayers who aspire to the HOF in the future to refrain from compromising their chances for entry. That is also an unspoken message. I don't know what recreational drugs you so cavalierly state Mays, Stargell & Aaron were taking. Perhaps you have inside info and would like to share it?In any case, the fundamental issue is PEDs and not boozing, "recreational drugs" carousing with women or other personal behavioral matters. Go back to the Pittsburgh trials and you find quite a bit even ESPN acknowledged that at one point. sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kreidler_mark&id=2225013sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=2289509Also this explains why amphetamines were and are better day to day and needed a pick up to be quicker to the ball in swinging, eye to hand coordination and that is why they help position players in those 10 day straight deals... you know like in the 60's and 70's when the common college folk need to stay up and study all night then pop one more just before the final exam to be alert and quick thinking to pass. Then that night crash hard and then get up half ready the next day to go on to the next. Well ball players do that too and it was prevalent back then. When they actually started testing for Greenies the game came back to the focus on good ballplay. I didn't really want to get into all this but I think some of you need or may want an explanation. If you want to address anabolic steroids as PED's fine, but realize what they really do is enable the best production of protein synthesis in your body which then converts to energy and creates red meat in your body which turns into useable muscle if and only if you train hard and exercise at an elite level and continue to do so. Thus this helps you keep that masculine body that stays healthier (bigger mass) over the LONG SEASON. It doesn't go to help you hit any better or have a better eye or anything along that line but it does keep your body mass up so that you can sustain power throughout the year. Heck alcohol actually will do close to the same job if you get rite down to it (albeit for a shorter time). WHY because alcohol is like protein converted into energy to produce mass. The key than is which one does it with less work IE energy used to convert... Alcohol does this part better because it is already broken down into ethyl alcohol and just needs to be converted into energy. The downfall those is if you take to big or a dose of ethyl alcohol and don't add enough sugars and fats it gives you that hangover and the extra energy is wasted off in your system. NOW don't do that training and high performance exercise and you get the Josh Beckett effect IE the beer belly!!! Greenies on the other hand don't create anything, they total best scenario use is to convert the fats and carbs in your body to a quick energy to use to waken your sense for eye contact wrist and hand quickness and such. The down fall to this is it takes the fats out of your muscle (the fats create the "marbling of the meat" or toning to keep your body as a oiled machine. Thus over a long period of time you become thinner in mass and weaker. Taken together you have the modern day ballplayer of the 1990's and 2000's. Baseball as you saw in the article above continually looked the other way on the real creation of the problem and the hallo of famers in it today are just as guilty has Clemens, Bonds, Big Mac and the others. One side note when Clemens was at trial and his side kept taking the b-12, b -complex shots THAT WAS TRUE... How I know this is if you take anabolic steroids or prednisone or solu delta cortef as a stimulent you need to immediately stimulate the electrolytes in your body and also stimulate the reproducing of natural enzymes in your body. Also make up for nitrogen loss , one of the best ways is to inject a combination of b-12, b-complex, and CaCo-Iron-Copper to re-stimulate your body to start naturally production of enzymes again as well as keep your vitamins up in your blood for a health red cell amount. I don't advocate this but as a trainer (not human but animal still the same) I do have some knowledge in this. I once again don't advocate steroids but the fact to me is that the baseball players and others in the hall are no different then the others today. Heck they caused today by their actions! So the only fix is to have a drug acknowledgement in the hall that admits all parties were involved in some way... Sorry for the rant! This is a great listing of information - but I think you greatly underestimate the affects of steroids and other PEDs. Keep in mind we aren't talking about straight testosterone by itself. These designer drugs are a whole different creature. The 'scarlet letter' idea is interesting - just let everyone in but make sure that the first thing you know about the cheater is that they cheated. Would this allow Shoeless JOe and Pete Rose in under the same conditions?
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