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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 19, 2017 5:39:44 GMT -5
I'm really good with the rotation starting out like this if this is the case. I would rather take it slow with Eduardo's knee and I really think that Wright should be in the rotation with all the innings he eats. Pomeranz needs to be a starter because that's where his most value is and the Sox need to get as much value back after getting screwed over on the Espinoza deal. So Pomeranz will be made a starter out of spite? This absurd, to put it nicely, kind of thinking needs to be wiped from your thoughts. It's this kind of back handed way of thinking for those that don't get it to attempt to understand in their own narrow little way why it is the way it is without questioning of course their own views and logic. Step back and broaden your horizons and accept the Sox may be right and you may be wrong. No. Pomeranz needs to be in the rotation to get the most value out of him. The Sox got screwed because Preller wasn't honest and forthright about the medicals in the deal. I hope the Sox are right about this deal. I would take being wrong about baseball for the rest of my life if it meant the Sox were right about all their decisions. I don't care about being right. The Sox were screwed over because of what happened after both teams agreed to the deal, not beforehand.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 19, 2017 8:16:12 GMT -5
]No. Pomeranz needs to be in the rotation to get the most value out of him. That would be, like, textbook sunk cost fallacy right there. If the Red Sox have Pomeranz ahead of Rodriguez or Wright it's because they think he's better (or suited to the role on an optimized staff), not because they feel the need to retroactively recoup value.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 19, 2017 8:38:46 GMT -5
So Pomeranz will be made a starter out of spite? This absurd, to put it nicely, kind of thinking needs to be wiped from your thoughts. It's this kind of back handed way of thinking for those that don't get it to attempt to understand in their own narrow little way why it is the way it is without questioning of course their own views and logic. Step back and broaden your horizons and accept the Sox may be right and you may be wrong. No. Pomeranz needs to be in the rotation to get the most value out of him. The Sox got screwed because Preller wasn't honest and forthright about the medicals in the deal. I hope the Sox are right about this deal. I would take being wrong about baseball for the rest of my life if it meant the Sox were right about all their decisions. I don't care about being right. The Sox were screwed over because of what happened after both teams agreed to the deal, not beforehand. And then next year, they need to put Trey Ball in the rotation because he was a high first round pick.
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Post by jmei on Jan 19, 2017 8:51:47 GMT -5
I'm really good with the rotation starting out like this if this is the case. I would rather take it slow with Eduardo's knee and I really think that Wright should be in the rotation with all the innings he eats. Pomeranz needs to be a starter because that's where his most value is and the Sox need to get as much value back after getting screwed over on the Espinoza deal. So Pomeranz will be made a starter out of spite? This absurd, to put it nicely, kind of thinking needs to be wiped from your thoughts. It's this kind of back handed way of thinking for those that don't get it to attempt to understand in their own narrow little way why it is the way it is without questioning of course their own views and logic. Step back and broaden your horizons and accept the Sox may be right and you may be wrong. Your last three or four substantive posts have included some sort of unnecessary personal dig. Please cut it out. You have been warned about this before. Thanks.
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Post by sibbysisti on Jan 19, 2017 13:09:35 GMT -5
No. Pomeranz needs to be in the rotation to get the most value out of him. The Sox got screwed because Preller wasn't honest and forthright about the medicals in the deal. I hope the Sox are right about this deal. I would take being wrong about baseball for the rest of my life if it meant the Sox were right about all their decisions. I don't care about being right. The Sox were screwed over because of what happened after both teams agreed to the deal, not beforehand. And then next year, they need to put Trey Ball in the rotation because he was a high first round pick. Ball needs to do a lot of work to get into a ML rotation. He shows glimmers at times of his skill set. But control has been a problem for him in the past. This is his first year at AA. He may need two more years of seasoning before factoring into the Sox rotation.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 19, 2017 13:22:07 GMT -5
...I'm really good with the rotation starting out like this if this is the case. I would rather take it slow with Eduardo's knee and I really think that Wright should be in the rotation with all the innings he eats. Pomeranz needs to be a starter because that's where his most value is and the Sox need to get as much value back after getting screwed over on the Espinoza deal. We all need to step back a little. The implication from the term "screwed over" is that we already know what Espinoza's value is. But while we see the potential, it's too early to stick any reliable number on it so this is pure conjecture - your opinion which you're certainly entitled to. It may not be the way members of the board see it so please remember that. The other point I'd like to make is that we do have some idea of what Pomeranz' worth is. I'd suggest it's a bit more than some of you seem to feel. Given the move to a new league and a fresh menu of hitters none of whom are pitchers; given a different park; given that the guy pitched more innings than he ever had and that he was under the wing of a different group of pitching analysts; I think it's a little early to write him off. He may very well take his skillset which is a good one - those 9.8Ks/9 for one - and show well this year. If he does I hope those of you who are disdainful will be as open to admitting your mistakes as when Porcello became the best pitcher on the staff. Patience is a rare thing these days. Let's see if this board can be a little more far-sighted. I'd also echo Dunne here. Business types who feel obliged to make a decision based on some past transaction usually don't last very long. When the medicals on Pomeranz finally showed, they didn't ask for their money back so they must like the guy and feel he's worth it. They did their due diligence by making the details public. That body of evidence is a lot more important to the way the league functions than some petty attempt at payback. I was impressed with the way they handled it, but that's just my opinion there.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 19, 2017 13:47:36 GMT -5
And then next year, they need to put Trey Ball in the rotation because he was a high first round pick. Ball needs to do a lot of work to get into a ML rotation. He shows glimmers at times of his skill set. But control has been a problem for him in the past. This is his first year at AA. He may need two more years of seasoning before factoring into the Sox rotation. I was being completely sarcastic. You don't make decisions because of how much value a player was supposed to have and that's what Pedrofan was implying.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 19, 2017 13:52:16 GMT -5
Pomeranz was not as bad as we seem to remember. His 13 starts included a run of 7 starts in which he allowed 2,1,2,1,2,3,2 runs. I'll grant that there weren't a lot of innings there because of the arm but he wasn't bad Buchholz bad.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 19, 2017 14:32:08 GMT -5
This is good news:
Brian MacPherson @brianmacp 23m23 minutes ago John Farrell said Eduardo Rodriguez won't pitch in the WBC: "We would likely hold him out" until his knee is at full health.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 20, 2017 6:59:41 GMT -5
]No. Pomeranz needs to be in the rotation to get the most value out of him. That would be, like, textbook sunk cost fallacy right there. If the Red Sox have Pomeranz ahead of Rodriguez or Wright it's because they think he's better (or suited to the role on an optimized staff), not because they feel the need to retroactively recoup value. I would normally agree with you and think "well the trade is done, nothing the Sox can do about it now" but Dombrowski has gone on record of defending this trade more times than really any other trade he's made here. I just think there's a lot of save face aspects to this trade. I love Pomeranz in this rotation and this trade makes me torn because I actually like both Espinoza and Pomeranz. Let me ask you one legitimate question though, out of the 3 in the rotation of Wright, Pomeranz, and Eduardo, who do you think will be given the longest leash to fail? It has to be Pomeranz, right? I think the trade is a huge part of that. Just my take on it.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 20, 2017 7:08:53 GMT -5
No. Pomeranz needs to be in the rotation to get the most value out of him. The Sox got screwed because Preller wasn't honest and forthright about the medicals in the deal. I hope the Sox are right about this deal. I would take being wrong about baseball for the rest of my life if it meant the Sox were right about all their decisions. I don't care about being right. The Sox were screwed over because of what happened after both teams agreed to the deal, not beforehand. And then next year, they need to put Trey Ball in the rotation because he was a high first round pick. Well I would agree if Trey Ball, could you know, pitch. I think you're making a apples to oranges argument. I'm not sure Ball ever had any value, even if he's a top 10 draft pick. Maybe a little value based off perception when he was first drafted but it's hard to tell. Either way I normally agree with you like I said in the last post I made. I just think this trade has a special set of circumstances surrounding it.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 20, 2017 7:24:56 GMT -5
...I'm really good with the rotation starting out like this if this is the case. I would rather take it slow with Eduardo's knee and I really think that Wright should be in the rotation with all the innings he eats. Pomeranz needs to be a starter because that's where his most value is and the Sox need to get as much value back after getting screwed over on the Espinoza deal. We all need to step back a little. The implication from the term "screwed over" is that we already know what Espinoza's value is. But while we see the potential, it's too early to stick any reliable number on it so this is pure conjecture - your opinion which you're certainly entitled to. It may not be the way members of the board see it so please remember that. The other point I'd like to make is that we do have some idea of what Pomeranz' worth is. I'd suggest it's a bit more than some of you seem to feel. Given the move to a new league and a fresh menu of hitters none of whom are pitchers; given a different park; given that the guy pitched more innings than he ever had and that he was under the wing of a different group of pitching analysts; I think it's a little early to write him off. He may very well take his skillset which is a good one - those 9.8Ks/9 for one - and show well this year. If he does I hope those of you who are disdainful will be as open to admitting your mistakes as when Porcello became the best pitcher on the staff. Patience is a rare thing these days. Let's see if this board can be a little more far-sighted. I'd also echo Dunne here. Business types who feel obliged to make a decision based on some past transaction usually don't last very long. When the medicals on Pomeranz finally showed, they didn't ask for their money back so they must like the guy and feel he's worth it. They did their due diligence by making the details public. That body of evidence is a lot more important to the way the league functions than some petty attempt at payback. I was impressed with the way they handled it, but that's just my opinion there. Well I just have a couple points. Espinoza has value based off the top rankings of top prospect sites like baseball america, sox prospects and other publications like that. All of them had Espinoza as a a top 3 Sox prospect and a top 20-40 overall prospect in baseball. That's a ton of value in a prospect. It might not be the best or fairest ways of valuing things but as fans it's the best we got. I don't think the Sox got screwed over because of the deal. Both teams obviously agreed to it, so it was a fair deal in that regard. The medicals is where the screwed over part happened. The Sox didn't ask for their "money back" because they needed the starting pitching at the time. The only other option who could pitch was Owens and he had a rough year last year. I think Chris Hatfield was the first to point this out. Owens couldn't even throw strikes last year. The Sox needed the starter in Pomeranz. I look forward to seeing what Pomeranz can do this year and maybe the next 2 years. I'm rooting for the guy and I hope his arm holds up and the elbow scare last year was due to the innings and not a real injury. I have nothing against Pomeranz himself. I hope if he does well enough, that the Sox extend him and make things look really good from their end.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 20, 2017 7:38:34 GMT -5
So Pomeranz will be made a starter out of spite? This absurd, to put it nicely, kind of thinking needs to be wiped from your thoughts. It's this kind of back handed way of thinking for those that don't get it to attempt to understand in their own narrow little way why it is the way it is without questioning of course their own views and logic. Step back and broaden your horizons and accept the Sox may be right and you may be wrong. Your last three or four substantive posts have included some sort of unnecessary personal dig. Please cut it out. You have been warned about this before. Thanks. You mods do a good job here. Even pointing out when I need to stop screwing around. Makes me think twice before posting non sense or keep arguing about a subject and take 3 pages out of a topic (which I admittedly do). Kudos.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 20, 2017 7:39:23 GMT -5
And then next year, they need to put Trey Ball in the rotation because he was a high first round pick. Well I would agree if Trey Ball, could you know, pitch. I think you're making a apples to oranges argument. I'm not sure Ball ever had any value, even if he's a top 10 draft pick. Maybe a little value based off perception when he was first drafted but it's hard to tell. Either way I normally agree with you like I said in the last post I made. I just think this trade has a special set of circumstances surrounding it. Well they probably believe that Pomeranz can you know, pitch. That is (should be) the only consideration when filling out the rotation. They aren't handing him a spot over some more deserving pitcher because they want to build his value up because of what they gave up for him.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 20, 2017 7:53:24 GMT -5
Well I would agree if Trey Ball, could you know, pitch. I think you're making a apples to oranges argument. I'm not sure Ball ever had any value, even if he's a top 10 draft pick. Maybe a little value based off perception when he was first drafted but it's hard to tell. Either way I normally agree with you like I said in the last post I made. I just think this trade has a special set of circumstances surrounding it. Well they probably believe that Pomeranz can you know, pitch. That is (should be) the only consideration when filling out the rotation. They aren't handing him a spot over some more deserving pitcher because they want to build his value up because of what they gave up for him. Yes and I would agree with the Sox. I think he can pitch too. I just think Pomeranz will be given more rope to succeed in the rotation versus Eduardo or Wright (baring that there's no injuries of course). I think this because of the trade.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 20, 2017 11:51:14 GMT -5
Well they probably believe that Pomeranz can you know, pitch. That is (should be) the only consideration when filling out the rotation. They aren't handing him a spot over some more deserving pitcher because they want to build his value up because of what they gave up for him. Yes and I would agree with the Sox. I think he can pitch too. I just think Pomeranz will be given more rope to succeed in the rotation versus Eduardo or Wright (baring that there's no injuries of course). I think this because of the trade. I'd lean the other way, thinking it will have no effect. The trade was DD's the rotation call is Farrell's.
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brisox
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Post by brisox on Jan 21, 2017 19:50:08 GMT -5
Well I would agree if Trey Ball, could you know, pitch. I think you're making a apples to oranges argument. I'm not sure Ball ever had any value, even if he's a top 10 draft pick. Maybe a little value based off perception when he was first drafted but it's hard to tell. Either way I normally agree with you like I said in the last post I made. I just think this trade has a special set of circumstances surrounding it. Well they probably believe that Pomeranz can you know, pitch. That is (should be) the only consideration when filling out the rotation. They aren't handing him a spot over some more deserving pitcher because they want to build his value up because of what they gave up for him. I think we quickly forget how good he was before coming over www.fangraphs.com/blogs/its-starting-to-click-for-drew-pomeranz/www.fangraphs.com/blogs/drew-pomeranz-now-with-50-more-pitches/He developed a cutter that was having significant impact and he was striking people out. I think he will do that again and we will give him a chance to get back to a place where he was having great success.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jan 21, 2017 21:41:37 GMT -5
I want Wright as the 6th starter and It's not that close of a call for me personally.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 22, 2017 7:47:42 GMT -5
Your last three or four substantive posts have included some sort of unnecessary personal dig. Please cut it out. You have been warned about this before. Thanks. You mods do a good job here. Even pointing out when I need to stop screwing around. Makes me think twice before posting non sense or keep arguing about a subject and take 3 pages out of a topic (which I admittedly do). Kudos. Agreed, you mods do a great job, trolling is virtually nonexistent here.
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Post by dnfl333 on Jan 22, 2017 10:24:30 GMT -5
Sale, Wright, Price, Porcello, Erod, Pomeranz = AL Pennant
The bullpen on the other hand is the ?
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 22, 2017 16:16:23 GMT -5
Pomeranz should be fine if people set their expectations properly then if he exceeds them great. Based on his history, you should expect some pretty high quality innings but not a lot of them. If he goes a full 6 in a start, that's about the max you can expect. He just isn't nearly efficient enough to be a top starter but this team shouldn't need that.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jan 27, 2017 0:42:21 GMT -5
Your last three or four substantive posts have included some sort of unnecessary personal dig. Please cut it out. You have been warned about this before. Thanks. You mods do a good job here. Even pointing out when I need to stop screwing around. Makes me think twice before posting non sense or keep arguing about a subject and take 3 pages out of a topic (which I admittedly do). Kudos. Is this not trolling. Limiting or warning trolling would help negate alot of personal digs.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jan 27, 2017 0:46:56 GMT -5
Well they probably believe that Pomeranz can you know, pitch. That is (should be) the only consideration when filling out the rotation. They aren't handing him a spot over some more deserving pitcher because they want to build his value up because of what they gave up for him. Yes and I would agree with the Sox. I think he can pitch too. I just think Pomeranz will be given more rope to succeed in the rotation versus Eduardo or Wright (baring that there's no injuries of course). I think this because of the trade. When someone contradicts you, you should validate your thoughts with actual reasons rather than simply point out that the contradiction is your thought ("I feel..." ) as that is not an answer and does not move the conversation forward.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 27, 2017 1:21:23 GMT -5
Yes and I would agree with the Sox. I think he can pitch too. I just think Pomeranz will be given more rope to succeed in the rotation versus Eduardo or Wright (baring that there's no injuries of course). I think this because of the trade. When someone contradicts you can you validate your thoughts rather than simply point out that the contradiction is your thought as that is not an answer and does not move the conversation forward. Uhh what? That was a confusing run on sentence. I never care if the conversation moves forward. I usually put my 2 cents in and move on.
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Post by jmei on Jan 27, 2017 7:41:50 GMT -5
You mods do a good job here. Even pointing out when I need to stop screwing around. Makes me think twice before posting non sense or keep arguing about a subject and take 3 pages out of a topic (which I admittedly do). Kudos. Is this not trolling. Limiting or warning trolling would help negate alot of personal digs. We certainly do let people know when they're derailing a thread or posting too much or being too repetitive or when a thread has reached a dead end. Either way, you should not be taking personal shots at anyone. I refer you to the forum ground rules. Speaking of derailing threads, let's stay on topic here. If you'd like to discuss moderating further, please feel free to start a thread in the meta forum or PM me or any of the higher ups. Thanks.
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