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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 15, 2017 11:50:50 GMT -5
Some here are assuming Dombrowski wasn't trying to find better guys than Kendrick. I'm not sure what has or hasn't been reported, but I know I've heard either reported or from sources that the Red Sox were trying to find AAA SP depth and were having a hard time. We've talked about this on the podcast - when the MLB roster has 6 guys for 5 spots, it's very difficult to convince a good MLFA to sign with your club. The only reason they even got Kendrick is that he wanted to work with Bannister.
So ok, do you want them to trade for AAA starting pitching depth? What player who is in between the gap of the 6 guys they had in MLB the likes of Owens/Johnson/Elias would you like them to trade for without giving up way more value to do so?
They went out and found Velazquez, who people here are forgetting about. Maybe he'll get the next shot. Maybe he'll be a stud; maybe he'll be forgettable; maybe he'll be an ok fifth starter and bridge the gap to Price that's shortening. Or maybe that guy is Johnson. Who knows? But in spring training, the Red Sox were geniuses for finding Kendrick. Now he makes two bad starts and it's another indication that Dombrowski should be fired?
And as others have said, the Buchholz money is meaningless in this discussion following the acquisition of Sale - they almost literally gave him away in order to get that money off the books entirely. That's not money that they then spent elsewhere or something.
By the way folks... "Dumbrowski" has gotta stop. That's Twitter egg, sports talk radio caller nonsense. There's plenty there to criticize, but that nickname is just stupid. It really is below the level of discussion we try to have here.
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Post by thursty on May 15, 2017 12:28:50 GMT -5
The genius of Dombrowski distilled: signing Kyle Kendrick. You.have.lost.the.plot
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Post by jimed14 on May 15, 2017 12:37:11 GMT -5
The genius of Dombrowski distilled: signing Kyle Kendrick. You.have.lost.the.plot Can you possibly be more obtuse? Obviously that's not the point. Maybe you should follow the plot of the last few pages of this thread where there has been a lengthy discussion of why Dombrowski didn't dedicate an insane amount of resources for the mythical 7th starter who wanted to play in AAA instead of the majors.
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Post by raftsox on May 15, 2017 14:36:22 GMT -5
By the way folks... "Dumbrowski" has gotta stop. That's Twitter egg, sports talk radio caller nonsense. There's plenty there to criticize, but that nickname is just stupid. It really is below the level of discussion we try to have here. It's marginally better than BorASS, though. With this one you're swapping a single letter, with the Boras one you need to both add a letter and emphasize part of it.
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Post by telson13 on May 15, 2017 17:50:36 GMT -5
Please no Ben Cherrington. One of the most incompetent GM's of our time. We had among the highest payrolls in baseball and out of 4 years three he helped drive us to last place. Please no. This, frankly, is nonsensical poppycock. I don't even know how to respond to stuff like this. And the poster calling DD "Dumbrowski" should just stop it too. It really doesn't help you make whatever point you are trying to make. Quite the opposite, actually. The topic of this thread is a fair one. It's too bad these types of posts make the thread unbearable to read. With that said, I'd add two things. -I'm not a DD fan, but I don't think we have a choice but to wait a little bit. I'd give it through Sept/Oct. You have a rotation of Sale/Price/Porcello, maybe Thornburg and Smith come back and make an impact. I think things might look a little different then. Third base, I don't know. They've got to figure that one out. -At this point, I think the Sox are all in. It's win or bust. This call has been made, from the front office to (it would seem, most of) the fans. That's a dangerous place to be, but here we are. If there are major weaknesses, they're gonna have to trade whatever is left of minor league assets to shore them up. I really don't see any other paths. I'll enjoy watching Sale and Price pitch whenever they do. But boy, I've rarely dreaded the future of this team like I do now. Outstandingly put.
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Post by telson13 on May 15, 2017 17:55:12 GMT -5
Ben Cherrington lucked into a title, the team was mostly Theo's. See how that works. He made the great Dodger trade and built a great farm system. Thing is he could never get all the pieces to fit together. Key free agent signings and trades are always going to be key to any championship team. If he learns from his mistakes he might be a great GM down the road. I just can't get over the Lackey trade, the Cuban signing and the Sandoval signing. The fact he gave away Lackey and then couldn't replace him was a huge mistake. With his deal and the way he was pitching you should have got a massive haul for him or just kept him! Now DD has made some big trades that might come back to haunt us down the road. Thing is as of right now they haven't. Undo all his trades and we are a crappy team with a great farm system. No Sale, Kimbrel or Pomeranz and we have major pitching issues. The only players that might help you right now are Margot and Moncada. Thing is there's no way they are helping you more than Sale and Kimbrel are currently. It's not even close. You really can't call the Smith trade bad, he didn't really give up anything. Miley had a horrible year, not like he would have helped us last year. If Smith can come back mid season that could still be a great trade. Pomeranz trade was a head scratcher but Espinoza is having arm troubles and 2-3 years away. Could be 3 plus years if he needs surgery. Right now the worst trade looks like the Thornburg trade. We could really use Shaw and our bullpen has been just fine without Thornburg. Thing is that looks so bad because all of our 3b options are currently injured. If Sandoval, Hernandez and Holt are healthy that combo should give you OK production. Still it's kind of funny that Shaw is the guy we miss the most, a guy most people didn't care being traded because he wasn't a top prospect. In general this team just needs to get healthy. Once healthy they are still one of most talented teams in Baseball. Once healthy they might only have one big hole and that's 3B. Overall I'm still very high on this team. All these injuries and we're still above .500. I don't in anyway see a top heavy team and I certainly don't see a team that has no depth because of trades. It's all injuries to Price, Bradley, Sandoval, Holt, Hernandez, Wright, Thornburg and Smith. It looks like only Thornburg and Wright are not going to help us going forward, Maybe Smith. While I think what you're saying about walking into a situation has some merit, 1) he was around and intimately involved in building that team, and 2) his FA signings (Koji, Napoli, Victorino especially) played huge roles in 2013, as did the Punto trade. Dombrowski had less of a stamp on the 2016 team than Cherington did on 2013...much less.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 15, 2017 19:10:33 GMT -5
Ben Cherrington lucked into a title, the team was mostly Theo's. See how that works. He made the great Dodger trade and built a great farm system. Thing is he could never get all the pieces to fit together. Key free agent signings and trades are always going to be key to any championship team. If he learns from his mistakes he might be a great GM down the road. I just can't get over the Lackey trade, the Cuban signing and the Sandoval signing. The fact he gave away Lackey and then couldn't replace him was a huge mistake. With his deal and the way he was pitching you should have got a massive haul for him or just kept him! Now DD has made some big trades that might come back to haunt us down the road. Thing is as of right now they haven't. Undo all his trades and we are a crappy team with a great farm system. No Sale, Kimbrel or Pomeranz and we have major pitching issues. The only players that might help you right now are Margot and Moncada. Thing is there's no way they are helping you more than Sale and Kimbrel are currently. It's not even close. You really can't call the Smith trade bad, he didn't really give up anything. Miley had a horrible year, not like he would have helped us last year. If Smith can come back mid season that could still be a great trade. Pomeranz trade was a head scratcher but Espinoza is having arm troubles and 2-3 years away. Could be 3 plus years if he needs surgery. Right now the worst trade looks like the Thornburg trade. We could really use Shaw and our bullpen has been just fine without Thornburg. Thing is that looks so bad because all of our 3b options are currently injured. If Sandoval, Hernandez and Holt are healthy that combo should give you OK production. Still it's kind of funny that Shaw is the guy we miss the most, a guy most people didn't care being traded because he wasn't a top prospect. In general this team just needs to get healthy. Once healthy they are still one of most talented teams in Baseball. Once healthy they might only have one big hole and that's 3B. Overall I'm still very high on this team. All these injuries and we're still above .500. I don't in anyway see a top heavy team and I certainly don't see a team that has no depth because of trades. It's all injuries to Price, Bradley, Sandoval, Holt, Hernandez, Wright, Thornburg and Smith. It looks like only Thornburg and Wright are not going to help us going forward, Maybe Smith. While I think what you're saying about walking into a situation has some merit, 1) he was around and intimately involved in building that team, and 2) his FA signings (Koji, Napoli, Victorino especially) played huge roles in 2013, as did the Punto trade. Dombrowski had less of a stamp on the 2016 team than Cherington did on 2013...much less. That's your opinion. How much say he had in Theo's moves can be debated, we really have no idea. DD brought in Price, Pomeranz, Zieger, Kimbrel and Young for example. He also shut down Sandoval and gave 3B to Shaw which was huge. No way Ben does that as quickly if at all, that was his guy. Based just on the moves we know each one made he didn't have much less of a stamp on that 2016 team than Ben in 2013.
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Post by p23w on May 15, 2017 19:20:34 GMT -5
Ben Cherrington lucked into a title, the team was mostly Theo's. See how that works. He made the great Dodger trade and built a great farm system. Thing is he could never get all the pieces to fit together. Key free agent signings and trades are always going to be key to any championship team. If he learns from his mistakes he might be a great GM down the road. I just can't get over the Lackey trade, the Cuban signing and the Sandoval signing. The fact he gave away Lackey and then couldn't replace him was a huge mistake. With his deal and the way he was pitching you should have got a massive haul for him or just kept him! Now DD has made some big trades that might come back to haunt us down the road. Thing is as of right now they haven't. Undo all his trades and we are a crappy team with a great farm system. No Sale, Kimbrel or Pomeranz and we have major pitching issues. The only players that might help you right now are Margot and Moncada. Thing is there's no way they are helping you more than Sale and Kimbrel are currently. It's not even close. You really can't call the Smith trade bad, he didn't really give up anything. Miley had a horrible year, not like he would have helped us last year. If Smith can come back mid season that could still be a great trade. Pomeranz trade was a head scratcher but Espinoza is having arm troubles and 2-3 years away. Could be 3 plus years if he needs surgery. Right now the worst trade looks like the Thornburg trade. We could really use Shaw and our bullpen has been just fine without Thornburg. Thing is that looks so bad because all of our 3b options are currently injured. If Sandoval, Hernandez and Holt are healthy that combo should give you OK production. Still it's kind of funny that Shaw is the guy we miss the most, a guy most people didn't care being traded because he wasn't a top prospect. In general this team just needs to get healthy. Once healthy they are still one of most talented teams in Baseball. Once healthy they might only have one big hole and that's 3B. Overall I'm still very high on this team. All these injuries and we're still above .500. I don't in anyway see a top heavy team and I certainly don't see a team that has no depth because of trades. It's all injuries to Price, Bradley, Sandoval, Holt, Hernandez, Wright, Thornburg and Smith. It looks like only Thornburg and Wright are not going to help us going forward, Maybe Smith. While I think what you're saying about walking into a situation has some merit, 1) he was around and intimately involved in building that team, and 2) his FA signings (Koji, Napoli, Victorino especially) played huge roles in 2013, as did the Punto trade. Dombrowski had less of a stamp on the 2016 team than Cherington did on 2013...much less. IMO taking pot shots (however juvenile is some posters opinion) is no less "annoying" than the plethora of posters that make inane derogatory comments about Farrell. My litmus test is the track record. By that accounting method Farrell and Dombrowski each have one World Championship. Difference being Dombrowski's ring is from 20 years ago. Farrell's has the same ring that Xander and Dustin both wear. Dombrowski has lived large and long from his one success. He has had the luxury of huge payrolls and not much to show for it since his initial success. He must be a good talker to his employers, because he keeps getting jobs with big payroll teams. IMO, that is where his talent lies. Farrell OTOH was a journeyman pitcher, pitching coach, who then had the fortune to sit at the right hand of a fantastic manager Tito Francona. Dombrowski "appears" enamoured by high profile talent from Daulton to Cabrera to Price (twice). Farrell does not appear to be enamoured by high profile talent (nor should he). Farrell's job is to mold and focus the talent to win, something his mentor taught him. Personally I don't believe either employee are among the best at their jobs. I think that just as Tito was the beneficiary of leadership on the field (Varitek, Lowell, Ortiz, Shilling) Farrell needs the same from Pedroia, Bogaerts, Betts. Personally the only take charge player I've seen on this team is Chris Sale. I'm not sure Sale can do this on his own. I'm not convinced it is in the dna of any of the position players (perhaps Pedroia) to fulfill this role. Star power alone is not going to get it done, in 2017. I don't project a quick fix. Maturity of the young talent will help. I'm beginning to realize the clubhouse value of David Ortiz more with each passing day. Making the playoffs may help, but I would not expect this team to advance very far. This seems to be the trademark of a Dave Dombrowski roster.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 15, 2017 19:21:02 GMT -5
Ben Cherrington lucked into a title, the team was mostly Theo's. See how that works. He made the great Dodger trade and built a great farm system. Thing is he could never get all the pieces to fit together. Key free agent signings and trades are always going to be key to any championship team. If he learns from his mistakes he might be a great GM down the road. I just can't get over the Lackey trade, the Cuban signing and the Sandoval signing. The fact he gave away Lackey and then couldn't replace him was a huge mistake. With his deal and the way he was pitching you should have got a massive haul for him or just kept him! Now DD has made some big trades that might come back to haunt us down the road. Thing is as of right now they haven't. Undo all his trades and we are a crappy team with a great farm system. No Sale, Kimbrel or Pomeranz and we have major pitching issues. The only players that might help you right now are Margot and Moncada. Thing is there's no way they are helping you more than Sale and Kimbrel are currently. It's not even close. You really can't call the Smith trade bad, he didn't really give up anything. Miley had a horrible year, not like he would have helped us last year. If Smith can come back mid season that could still be a great trade. Pomeranz trade was a head scratcher but Espinoza is having arm troubles and 2-3 years away. Could be 3 plus years if he needs surgery. Right now the worst trade looks like the Thornburg trade. We could really use Shaw and our bullpen has been just fine without Thornburg. Thing is that looks so bad because all of our 3b options are currently injured. If Sandoval, Hernandez and Holt are healthy that combo should give you OK production. Still it's kind of funny that Shaw is the guy we miss the most, a guy most people didn't care being traded because he wasn't a top prospect. In general this team just needs to get healthy. Once healthy they are still one of most talented teams in Baseball. Once healthy they might only have one big hole and that's 3B. Overall I'm still very high on this team. All these injuries and we're still above .500. I don't in anyway see a top heavy team and I certainly don't see a team that has no depth because of trades. It's all injuries to Price, Bradley, Sandoval, Holt, Hernandez, Wright, Thornburg and Smith. It looks like only Thornburg and Wright are not going to help us going forward, Maybe Smith. Ben Cherington deserves a ton of credit for 2013. Yes, Theo's fingerprints were on the team a lot like Duquette's fingerprints were on the 2004 team, but without Theo there's no way the 2004 Red Sox win. Likewise without the acquisitions Cherington made there's no way 2013 happens. Look at the 2013 team. The core of Pedroia/Lester/Buchholz/Ellsbury was Theo's along with the heart of the team, Big Papi. Theo also left behind Lackey, Salty, Doubront, Xander, WMB, Workman (I think), and Tazawa. But the rest of the team - we're talking Napoli, Victorino, Gomes, Drew, Ross, Peavy, Dempster, Koji, Breslow,Carp were Cherington additions and contributors. Also keep in mind that while Theo was running the team Cherington was heavily involved in the organization, and I would think would be part of the decision making process. He didn't just walk in and inherit an amazing farm system ready to percolate the way Dombrowski did. Dombrowski had very little to do with accumulating new talent. Rather, whether we agree with him or not, he has reshaped the talent with a lot of trades that thinned out the system but thickened up (in most cases) the major league roster. We'll see the net results of the tradeoffs in time.
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Post by bosox81 on May 15, 2017 19:25:12 GMT -5
Mike Napoli, Shane Victorino, Koji Uehara, David Ross, Jonny Gomes, Stephen Drew, Ryan Dempster, Joel Hanrahan, Mike Carp, and Jake Peavy.
That's ten players brought by BC, none of whom required giving up a draft pick, allowing the team to compete while still building for the future (a future that, in retrospect, he would've been better off not caring for, since he's no longer here to reap the benefits). More importantly, Napoli, Victorino, and Drew alone accumulated 13.2 WAR, which is over one third of the team's position players' total WAR.
Pretty sure BC had more of a stamp in that team than DD in the 2016 one.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 15, 2017 19:52:58 GMT -5
This is still Ben Cherington's team. Dombrowski has just added some expensive, occasionally healthy pitchers to it.
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Post by scottysmalls on May 15, 2017 23:15:13 GMT -5
This is still Ben Cherington's team. Dombrowski has just added some expensive, occasionally healthy pitchers to it. Is it Cherington's team? Pedroia, Bradley, Betts, Bogaerts, Vazquez, Barnes are all Theo guys. Sale, Price, Kimbrel, Pomeranz, Moreland, and potentially important pieces in Smith and Thornburg, all Dombrowski guys. Direct Cherington acquisitions who look to be important are probably just Benintendi, Leon, Hanley and Rodriguez. Cherington deserves some credit for the guys brought in while Theo was here, and some for the pieces Dombrowski traded to acquire his guys. But saying this is any one general manager's team seems misguided when it requires so much assigning of credit that is impossible to do without inside knowledge.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 15, 2017 23:37:37 GMT -5
Mike Napoli, Shane Victorino, Koji Uehara, David Ross, Jonny Gomes, Stephen Drew, Ryan Dempster, Joel Hanrahan, Mike Carp, and Jake Peavy. That's ten players brought by BC, none of whom required giving up a draft pick, allowing the team to compete while still building for the future (a future that, in retrospect, he would've been better off not caring for, since he's no longer here to reap the benefits). More importantly, Napoli, Victorino, and Drew alone accumulated 13.2 WAR, which is over one third of the team's position players' total WAR. Pretty sure BC had more of a stamp in that team than DD in the 2016 one. Well there's certainly more players DD brought in that I didn't mention. Price, Pomeranz, Ziegler, and Kimbrel had over a third of our total pitching war total.
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Post by bosox81 on May 16, 2017 9:02:29 GMT -5
Mike Napoli, Shane Victorino, Koji Uehara, David Ross, Jonny Gomes, Stephen Drew, Ryan Dempster, Joel Hanrahan, Mike Carp, and Jake Peavy. That's ten players brought by BC, none of whom required giving up a draft pick, allowing the team to compete while still building for the future (a future that, in retrospect, he would've been better off not caring for, since he's no longer here to reap the benefits). More importantly, Napoli, Victorino, and Drew alone accumulated 13.2 WAR, which is over one third of the team's position players' total WAR. Pretty sure BC had more of a stamp in that team than DD in the 2016 one. Well there's certainly more players DD brought in that I didn't mention. Price, Pomeranz, Ziegler, and Kimbrel had over a third of our total pitching war total. You mention those pitchers and their WAR contribution as if it had a similar impact to the 2013 offense brought by BC's acquisitions, but there's no comparison there: In 2013 the pitching was mediocre, but the offense was otherworldly. They had 35.9 WAR from position players, 7 more than the second best team. They carried that team to a WS trophy. Maybe this will make it more clear for you: In 2016, DD's acquisitions contributed 8.1 WAR out of a total team WAR of 42.6. That is 19%. In 2013, BC's acquisitions contributed 22.1 WAR out of a total team WAR of 51.9. That is 43%.
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Post by jimed14 on May 16, 2017 9:14:24 GMT -5
Well there's certainly more players DD brought in that I didn't mention. Price, Pomeranz, Ziegler, and Kimbrel had over a third of our total pitching war total. You mention those pitchers and their WAR contribution as if it had a similar impact to the 2013 offense brought by BC's acquisitions, but there's no comparison there: In 2013 the pitching was mediocre, but the offense was otherworldly. They had 35.9 WAR from position players, 7 more than the second best team. They carried that team to a WS trophy. Maybe this will make it more clear for you: In 2016, DD's acquisitions contributed 8.1 WAR out of a total team WAR of 42.6. That is 19%. In 2013, BC's acquisitions contributed 22.1 WAR out of a total team WAR of 51.9. That is 43%. More importantly, Cherington didn't trade 15 prospects away for his acquisitions. And because he didn't, DDo had them to trade.
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Post by mandelbro on May 16, 2017 10:00:48 GMT -5
You mention those pitchers and their WAR contribution as if it had a similar impact to the 2013 offense brought by BC's acquisitions, but there's no comparison there: In 2013 the pitching was mediocre, but the offense was otherworldly. They had 35.9 WAR from position players, 7 more than the second best team. They carried that team to a WS trophy. Maybe this will make it more clear for you: In 2016, DD's acquisitions contributed 8.1 WAR out of a total team WAR of 42.6. That is 19%. In 2013, BC's acquisitions contributed 22.1 WAR out of a total team WAR of 51.9. That is 43%. More importantly, Cherington didn't trade 15 prospects away for his acquisitions. And because he didn't, DDo had them to trade. Correct, the balance of Dombrowski's moves will be what he has added less what he has shipped out. Moreland has been a useful contributor. But with Thornburg a zero and Shaw contributing elsewhere, you haven't netted anything between the two moves from a WAR perspective. Pomeranz for Espinoza is seemingly going to come down to TINSTAAPP for Boston to not regret it. And the Sale trade seemingly hinges on Moncada failing to reign in his strikeout issues.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 16, 2017 10:07:05 GMT -5
The 2013 team had a higher pitching war total than the 2016 team.
You're giving Ben credit because of our president that made LA trade. That took away 3 starters and a backup player. That opened up a ton of roster spots and gave him a ton of money to spend. He made some good signings don't get me, but take out those 3 positional players you mention and there still just 6 war from tops in majors.
The pitching staff that won a Championship was already there outside of Koji. The other guys like Dempster had negative war totals. Pitching is a lot harder to acquire than good positional players. Getting solid players like Napoli and Moreland isn't that hard in free agency.
The way I look at it, could Ben have rebuilt the 2016 pitching enough to allow our bats to compete? I don't think so. Without that upgrade in pitching that 2016 team would have sucked. He fixed our biggest weakness at the hardest position to acquire talent.
That 2013 teams best positional players and pitchers outside Koji were already there. In 2016 a large amount of good pitchers were brought in by DD. That's my opinion and you won't change it,so no need to reply. We can agree to disagree.
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Post by James Dunne on May 16, 2017 10:19:58 GMT -5
And the Sale trade seemingly hinges on Moncada failing to reign in his strikeout issues. Nah. You can't measure a trade like that in career WAR. If Sale and Moncada both become Hall of Famers, but Sale peaks in value the next three years while Moncada does from like 2022-2025 then, in very rough terms, it's a good trade. Present wins are worth more than future wins because there are more paths to manipulating future ones. If Chris Sale turns into Pedro Martinez but Yoan Moncada is Chase Utley, Moncada is going to post a higher WAR from now to eternity but it's a winning trade.
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Post by thursty on May 16, 2017 10:36:10 GMT -5
The skill required to pay more than $30m than the next highest bidder is a rare one indeed, as in any other profession (indeed even in its own), it tends to get you fired, not plaudits
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Post by mandelbro on May 16, 2017 10:38:38 GMT -5
And the Sale trade seemingly hinges on Moncada failing to reign in his strikeout issues. Nah. You can't measure a trade like that in career WAR. If Sale and Moncada both become Hall of Famers, but Sale peaks in value the next three years while Moncada does from like 2022-2025 then, in very rough terms, it's a good trade. Present wins are worth more than future wins because there are more paths to manipulating future ones. If Chris Sale turns into Pedro Martinez but Yoan Moncada is Chase Utley, Moncada is going to post a higher WAR from now to eternity but it's a winning trade. Generally, present wins are worth more than future wins, yes. But when you consider where the Red Sox are organizationally, the existence of "paths to manipulate future wins" is precisely why I would pass on Sale. I don't think present wins are all that valuable for the Sox. Taking an 83 win team to 87 wins is nice but it isn't something I want to pay a big premium on. I'd rather explore a splash for a Chris Sale in two years, when that player's addition has the promise of materially improving pennant odds. EDIT: To clarify, I'm not trying to diminish the value of Chris Sale to the 2017 Red Sox. The guy is freaking incredible. But given the timeline over which I feel confident expecting brilliance from him, and the state of the team around him, I have a hard time seeing the Red Sox make good use of that brilliance.
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Post by James Dunne on May 16, 2017 10:48:27 GMT -5
Chris Sale's value isn't 83 wins to 87, though. It's like 83 to 89 or 90, the type of player who turns an otherwise 87-win team into a legitimate World Series contender. Coming off a 93-win season, they lost Ortiz but there wasn't a whole lot of reason to think they were a .500 team when they added Sale. If they end up there? Yeah, that stinks, and they've mortgaged their future to end up stuck in 87-win purgatory.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 16, 2017 10:54:32 GMT -5
The skill required to pay more than $30m than the next highest bidder is a rare one indeed, as in any other profession (indeed even in its own), it tends to get you fired, not plaudits Not when it's for one of the best pitchers of our generation. What gets you fired is spending just about the same on Sandoval, our #1 Cuban friend and Craig. That gets you fired! You can't debate that, it's exactly what happened.
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Post by thursty on May 16, 2017 10:55:16 GMT -5
The reason present wins are more valuable than future wins has nothing to do with "ways to manipulate future wins" (whatever that means) - it's that in the long run . . . we're all dead
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on May 16, 2017 10:58:46 GMT -5
Generally, present wins are worth more than future wins, yes. But when you consider where the Red Sox are organizationally, the existence of "paths to manipulate future wins" is precisely why I would pass on Sale. I don't think present wins are all that valuable for the Sox. Taking an 83 win team to 87 wins is nice but it isn't something I want to pay a big premium on. I'd rather explore a splash for a Chris Sale in two years, when that player's addition has the promise of materially improving pennant odds. EDIT: To clarify, I'm not trying to diminish the value of Chris Sale to the 2017 Red Sox. The guy is freaking incredible. But given the timeline over which I feel confident expecting brilliance from him, and the state of the team around him, I have a hard time seeing the Red Sox make good use of that brilliance. Glad you added the Edit. As with any trade, we'll have to see with the other players. But not only is Sale unbelievable, he is cheap, relatively speaking. I would also take a slight issue with your present win valuation. It seems clear to me that 90-92 wins will be needed to win the division, maybe even make a wild card. this is a very tough division. We can certainly agree that BC was ostensibly, under a rebuild after 2013 into 2014 or 2015. Whether that was self imposed. or whether he was waiting prospect development, he almost certainly was looking at this year as a championship caliber opportunity, the same as DD is. We have wonderful pieces on this team. I just don't view the addition of DD's acquisitions as unneeded. As has been discussed, it certainly came at a price for the farm and possibly future of the club. This is a talented club, I think they will still win the division.
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Post by James Dunne on May 16, 2017 11:03:14 GMT -5
The reason present wins are more valuable than future wins has nothing to do with "ways to manipulate future wins" (whatever that means) - it's that in the long run . . . we're all dead It means you can evaluate your future roster based on your present one and have more opportunities to make changes accordingly. A good GM can take basically any roster and turn it into a winning one in about four years. In the very short term? There are fewer paths to upgrade a present roster, so major upgrades - such as from Pitcher X to Chris Sale - are worth more and are more expensive. Cherington wasn't good enough at turning future value into present. Dombrowski seems to overvalue specific present players, leading to overpays where the complaint isn't necessarily the player acquired but the price paid for it.
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