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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 26, 2016 15:27:19 GMT -5
Great post. BTW, I am on board with the trade. Last year, the team and pitching staff wore down at the end & we lost the home field. Also, it can be huge if Sale can get you that W in game one of a series & alleviate some pressure off Price/Porcello in game 2 & 3. This will be a positive trickle down affect all year on the SP & RP's.
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Post by tonyc on Dec 28, 2016 14:08:58 GMT -5
Sox Jim and Fisher, thanks for the comments which make me feel better. I'm still in sympathy with the posters looking at the overall talent gone- and the potential we had for cost effective replacements enabling resigning more of our players. They're largely leaving at the same time now, with a new CBA with real teeth making retention more difficult. However, the domino effect of pitchers wearing out,particularly in post season, is a factor I've long been aware of, and not reflected in WAR. Without Peavy saving our exhausted staff and postitioning us one game ahead in the playoff structure, causing Detroit and Oakland to exhaust each other and then Detroit to face us without the best starter alignment, there is no 2013 WS win- irrespective of the good then poor performance he provided as the playoffs progressed. I have vivid memories of the importance of an ace in WS back to Tom Seaver besting one of the greatest teams ever in 69- or Orel Hershisher carrying a very weak team on his back in '88 (or Christy Mathewson going way back).
While I"m still heartbroken that Kopech and Espinoza are gone, thanks Fisher for the comforting link to Dombroski's long-term prowess..you're right, it's ludicrous to complain about what IS- we have no choice in life, and hopefully he'll do well in years 4 and beyond. And in Alex Speir's (or Leonard Nimoy's) lexicon it's all "fascinating."
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Post by telson13 on Dec 29, 2016 16:41:40 GMT -5
We weren't; going to the playoffs without DD's moves of getting Price, Kimbrel, Pomeranz, and Zeigler. They all had a positive effect until guys like Clay, ERod and Kelly "settled." DD made it obvious when he got Price and Kimbrel that he wanted the playoffs. IMO no way Ben manages with this type of urgency. Hell- leading into the last week or so of the season fangraphs had us a slight favorite to get into the world series. And maybe even a slight favorite to beat the cubs though I'm not sure about that (at some point very late in the season?)or if/when the odds changed. That would certainly not have happened with Ben as the GM. Not with the pitching staff he put together.
With DD we know what we're going to get. A GM that wants to win. Not a GM that is coentent wiht his last place finishes and $190m
I agree that DD looked at our roster before the start of last year and saw that it wasn't playoff caliber, which is why he had to add Price, Kimbrel and then Pom and Zeigler. I also think there's a pretty good chance that after the playoffs this year, DD looked at our roster and saw that it wasn't very likely that this group is going to win a WS the way it's constructed, given what CLE has, what the Cubs have put together, and what the SFG and LAD can put on the field. Bottom line - if the RS win a WS in the next three years, the trade is at least defensible. If they don't, then DD is probably going to be end up looking like an idiot. That's why he gets paid the big bucks. (As a side note, I will point out that it's a lot easier to sit back and not make deals like these because few people ever know what is being passed up. If DD really cared about criticism, then he would have just sat back and let the RS win 85-90 games for the next 6 years but never really contend for a WS - sort of like the 88-92 Red Sox. No one would have ever known that he turned down Sale and if the youngsters didn't become superstars, people would have just chalked it up to prospects not always panning out.) BTW, you know who is happiest with this trade? Mookie and XB and JBJ. I'm rooting like crazy that he's correct and we can watch another victory parade next year. With Moncada roughly a year away from real contribution, Kopech probably a year away, Devers maybe two, Benintendi developing, and the huge FA markets in '18-'19, its hardly accurate to predict that this would be a stagnant borderline playoff team.
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Post by dnfl333 on Jan 22, 2017 12:39:57 GMT -5
Superstar laden talent at all 3 OF positions. Top 5 SS in the game. Arguably a Top 5 1B in the game and a SP Staff with arguably 3 Aces.
Everyone is ? The GM.
This must be Boston
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 22, 2017 12:45:31 GMT -5
Arguably a Top 5 1B in the game Was this supposed to be second base? Without getting too deep into whether the Ramirez/Moreland setup is good, adequate, or something less, there's no way they match up to Rizzo, Votto, Goldschmidt, Cabrera, or Freeman.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 22, 2017 14:34:51 GMT -5
Superstar laden talent at all 3 OF positions. Top 5 SS in the game. Arguably a Top 5 1B in the game and a SP Staff with arguably 3 Aces. Everyone is ? The GM. This must be Boston Mitch Moreland agrees completely
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Post by burythehammer on Jan 23, 2017 10:12:57 GMT -5
Superstar laden talent at all 3 OF positions. Top 5 SS in the game. Arguably a Top 5 1B in the game and a SP Staff with arguably 3 Aces. Everyone is ? The GM. This must be Boston He inherited almost every player you're referencing. And the two he didn't were acquired with resources he inherited.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 23, 2017 20:09:44 GMT -5
Also JBJ as a superstar is a stretch and Benintendi is a rookie.
If we want to get really crazy, Bogaerts wasn't a top five shortstop last year (6th by fWAR). Seager, Machado, Lindor, Correa, and Crawford were in front of him. And Russel was nipping at his heels, so it's no lock that he'll be top five in '17 either.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 24, 2017 10:22:18 GMT -5
Lindor and Seager are the only ones there who I'm (reasonably) sure are better than Bogaerts, though - he could easily go the other way. The amount of young talent at that position is absurd.
Benintendi, though... if he were 6'1" we'd be getting absurd Stan Musial comps for him. Doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be a star, but just think of how talented a guy who's probably 5'7" has to be to get the scouting community this bananas. And I'm STILL not sure I have him ahead of Moncada (especially now that Moncada has a path to stay at second base).
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 24, 2017 11:20:41 GMT -5
I have to chuckle rather than be irritated at the glass half empty outlook towards the Sox that some here on SP have. IMO it is the strongest roster going into a season that I can remember. I am very optimistic about this team, the sky is not falling. In fact I really believe the Sox could lead the league in runs scored and in runs allowed. I'm not going to get into all the reasons why as they have been voiced many times but I just don't get the negativity.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 24, 2017 12:14:27 GMT -5
Benintendi, though... if he were 6'1" we'd be getting absurd Stan Musial comps for him. Doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be a star, but just think of how talented a guy who's probably 5'7" has to be to get the scouting community this bananas. And I'm STILL not sure I have him ahead of Moncada (especially now that Moncada has a path to stay at second base). I've seen Benintendifrom 20 feet away in a ball. He's a lot taller than 5' 7". I'd guess 5 9
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 24, 2017 12:28:27 GMT -5
Isn't Betts 5'9"? He looks an inch or two shorter than Mookie. Point still stands though - scouting types don't normally go gaga for a guy that size.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 24, 2017 13:38:24 GMT -5
Benintendi, though... if he were 6'1" we'd be getting absurd Stan Musial comps for him. Doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be a star, but just think of how talented a guy who's probably 5'7" has to be to get the scouting community this bananas. And I'm STILL not sure I have him ahead of Moncada (especially now that Moncada has a path to stay at second base). I've seen Benintendifrom 20 feet away in a ball. He's a lot taller than 5' 7". I'd guess 5 9 If he was 6'2" he would have been drafted in the 1st round out of high school. So the Sox are somewhat lucky he is only 5 whatever.
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Post by redsox1534 on Jan 24, 2017 17:43:10 GMT -5
To start this off I have to say I kinda controdict my self when I say I like dd but I never wanted him in boston. He can make great trades and be bold this I respect. But I hate his inability to not build a dynasty a team with young talent on the team mixed with veterans and the prospects to continue to replace the vets and acquire them. He trades the farm every time to win now when some times you can have the farm and still win now ask theo and jed. I did not like the kimbrel trade I was exstatic to acquire the player but not what and how much we gave up. Seemed little desperate. The pomeranz trade was my be the worst trade imo we have made since bagwell. I like pom I do. But we needed a ace and he is not that another desperate trade we gave up a top 10 talent for a guy having a career year in the nl in a monster park. The sale trade was a great trade for my money. We didn't overpay, sucks giving up 2 top kids but it takes talent to get talent sale is a bona-fide ace at 27? 28? With a phew years left on his contract at a crazy affordable price.
He doesn't no how to build a team for now and future he just nos how to build for the now. Mark my words one day theo will be back and we'll worship him like we do brady.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jan 25, 2017 13:25:33 GMT -5
It appears that the Yankees are the new Red Sox...great farm system and unwilling to pull the trigger on major trades to protect that farm. They are going to be very tough in the ensuing years and we may be back to looking up at them. I guess that we are just later in the cycle...if it is a cycle....trade many top prospects for the 4-5 guys you think can win it now...worry about tomorrow when it arrives.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 25, 2017 13:39:34 GMT -5
It appears that the Yankees are the new Red Sox...great farm system and unwilling to pull the trigger on major trades to protect that farm. They are going to be very tough in the ensuing years and we may be back to looking up at them. I guess that we are just later in the cycle...if it is a cycle....trade many top prospects for the 4-5 guys you think can win it now...worry about tomorrow when it arrives. So the Yankees will be a last place team until 2019? Just like the Sox were in 2014 and 2015 while having a great farm system? I'll take that. The Yankees will eventually trade their prospects away too. It's what they do. They just won't do it right now because they aren't close to competing yet.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2017 17:25:12 GMT -5
It appears that the Yankees are the new Red Sox...great farm system and unwilling to pull the trigger on major trades to protect that farm. They are going to be very tough in the ensuing years and we may be back to looking up at them. I guess that we are just later in the cycle...if it is a cycle....trade many top prospects for the 4-5 guys you think can win it now...worry about tomorrow when it arrives. So the Yankees will be a last place team until 2019? Just like the Sox were in 2014 and 2015 while having a great farm system? I'll take that. The Yankees will eventually trade their prospects away too. It's what they do. They just won't do it right now because they aren't close to competing yet. Given their abundance of young middle infielders/infield prospects (Gregorius, Castro, Torres, Mateo), it seems fair to assume a trade is coming at some point.
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Post by tonyc on Jan 25, 2017 22:20:35 GMT -5
Between the Yanks prospects, resources and free agent class in a few years I too have been thinking it's quite possible we'll be looking up at them. In 10 years will we be looking back and actually pleased that DD won a series or two in a small window before a 6 year Yankee powerhouse? Could that ultimately justify creating a great team with a 3 year window, as opposed to a very good one with a 7 year window? I suspect the answer will be no, as we've become such a here and now culture- how quickly did the afterglow of the 2013 World Series vanish in the face of a couple of poor finishes.
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Post by dmaineah on Mar 3, 2017 13:50:39 GMT -5
With 30 days to go till Opening Day; Price, Wright, Pomeranz, E. Rod, Thornburg, Hanley are all dealing with injuries not to mention Swihart, Smith & Workman still working their way back from injuries. I can't believe that the Starting Pitching Depth is; Owens, Johnson, Elias, Kendrick & Velazquez.
Terrible job by D.D.
A pitching staff full of injuries and soft tossers
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Post by ematz1423 on Mar 3, 2017 13:58:47 GMT -5
With 30 days to go till Opening Day; Price, Wright, Pomeranz, E. Rod, Thornburg, Hanley are all dealing with injuries not to mention Swihart, Smith & Workman still working their way back from injuries. I can't believe that the Starting Pitching Depth is; Owens, Johnson, Elias, Kendrick & Velazquez. Terrible job by D.D. A pitching staff full of injuries and soft tossers I don't see how you can blame Dombrowski for any of these injury issues with the exception of Pomeranz who as of right now is still slated to be ready to start the year. What do you want Dombrowski to do, trade what is left of the prospects for depth pitchers?
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 3, 2017 14:36:35 GMT -5
With 30 days to go till Opening Day; Price, Wright, Pomeranz, E. Rod, Thornburg, Hanley are all dealing with injuries not to mention Swihart, Smith & Workman still working their way back from injuries. I can't believe that the Starting Pitching Depth is; Owens, Johnson, Elias, Kendrick & Velazquez. Terrible job by D.D. A pitching staff full of injuries and soft tossers Are you trying to get people to call you out? Whatever depth is on this team was created by DD. Price, Sale, Pomeranz. And talk about soft tossers.....the previous regime hoarded soft tossers. It was those guys that lost Lester, Lackey and the like. Not sure how you pin this on DD. You do need to acquire front line starters to compete. I don't agree with this at all.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 3, 2017 17:12:28 GMT -5
With 30 days to go till Opening Day; Price, Wright, Pomeranz, E. Rod, Thornburg, Hanley are all dealing with injuries not to mention Swihart, Smith & Workman still working their way back from injuries. I can't believe that the Starting Pitching Depth is; Owens, Johnson, Elias, Kendrick & Velazquez. Terrible job by D.D. A pitching staff full of injuries and soft tossers Funny, I think there is a really nice 7-11 there
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Post by ryan24 on Mar 3, 2017 18:37:10 GMT -5
With 30 days to go till Opening Day; Price, Wright, Pomeranz, E. Rod, Thornburg, Hanley are all dealing with injuries not to mention Swihart, Smith & Workman still working their way back from injuries. I can't believe that the Starting Pitching Depth is; Owens, Johnson, Elias, Kendrick & Velazquez. Terrible job by D.D. A pitching staff full of injuries and soft tossers This site likes prospects. Because DD traded a bunch away he is terrible. Because we like the negative. These trades and the players the sox got will be judged on what happens over the next 3 years. How many of these prospects turn into bagwells or Middlebrooks is yet to be determined.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 3, 2017 22:46:19 GMT -5
With 30 days to go till Opening Day; Price, Wright, Pomeranz, E. Rod, Thornburg, Hanley are all dealing with injuries not to mention Swihart, Smith & Workman still working their way back from injuries. I can't believe that the Starting Pitching Depth is; Owens, Johnson, Elias, Kendrick & Velazquez. Terrible job by D.D. A pitching staff full of injuries and soft tossers Man, that is absolutely ridiculous. Do you honestly think all other teams have Sandy Koufax and Pedro Martinez in their prime lined up as their #7 and #8 starters? Seriously the Red Sox have six decent to excellent options in the rotation which is three to four more than most teams have. Kendrick is a mediocrity but there is a chance that Bannister could help him and Velazquez might be a sneaky good pickup. His K/BB ratio in Mexico was fantastic. Yeah, it was Mexico, but there's a chance he could be useful if needed. To be dismissive of them is kind of crazy, and those two are certainly no worse than any other team's #7 and #8 starters. And as far as soft tossers go, Price and Sale are capable of whiffing 200 batters plus per season, Porcello came close and the whole bullpen is comprised of guys that throw mid 90s and better. So what in the world are you talking about? Some of your takes are really, really out there.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 3, 2017 22:55:43 GMT -5
A pitching staff full of injuries and soft tossers This site likes prospects. Because DD traded a bunch away he is terrible. Because we like the negative. These trades and the players the sox got will be judged on what happens over the next 3 years. How many of these prospects turn into bagwells or Middlebrooks is yet to be determined. [/quote] I think it will be over a longer term where trades are judged. I mean Cherington had the Sox Champs of 2013 and by 2014 he was being questioned and by 2015 he was out of a job. If the Sox win over the next three seasons and then tank because the payroll is bloated and there is no farm system left to replenish talent the World Championship of 2018 will be a distant memory as fans complain about 2021. And if this scenario comes to pass and there is no World Championship of 2018 to talk about, then it will be even worse. This site likes quality prospects, not just any old prospect. The feeling is that Dombrowski overpays, even when he doesn't need to, and that instead of having the Red Sox positioned for a decade long run, he has marginally increased their odds over a shorter term window, leaving the Red Sox vulnerable beyond that window. As far as prospects go, it really wasn't that tough to determine that Bagwell was going to be Bagwell - Bill James was right on that in 1991 before Bagwell even suited up for Houston and it wasn't hard to see that WMB would be undermined by his awful K/BB ratio, which he was. Some prospects have much better odds than others and some of those with pretty damn good odds have left the organization.
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