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Post by digit on Apr 6, 2017 16:44:09 GMT -5
... They're paying the man more money than the pro bowl special teamer, and somehow you don't think -that- is indicative that they have a bigger role for him than special teams?
You're basically saying they're paying him more than Blount and Lewis to be a special teamer who can back up the lead back.
And you think it's crazy that they're paying him all that money 'to be a well-rounded running back', but that it's perfectly fine to pay him MORE than the actual lead backs to back them up?
Signing Burkhead for that much money -and- signing Bolden again strikes me as, well, Belichick not looking for a special team replacement as much as he's actually looking for a running back.
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Post by digit on Apr 6, 2017 17:06:53 GMT -5
Also, the other key to looking at Burkhead is this: He got that few carries because he was drafted, and played behind, Giovanni Bernard and Jeremy Hill. His first two years were basically injury years when he was out. By the time he was in, Bernard and Hill were firmly established as the primary running backs. He got -most- of his carries in six games last year, starting with week 12... so 68 carries, 305 yards over those six games, ending with a full-time load when Bernard and Hill were out for the last game, a 4.5 yard carry. So no, we don't know if he can actually carry the load, but in the time he actually -did- get to carry the ball as a third stringer, he had a 4.5 yard per carry average... two games vs the Ravens, a game vs the Steelers, and a game vs the Texans in there, so it's not like he got an easy road. Cincinnati fans analysis of Burkhead's game here: www.cincyjungle.com/2017/2/6/14501064/rex-burkheads-5-best-attributesI think an in-depth analysis of Burkhead's game is going to tell you more than just looking at game logs and going 'oh, he didn't carry much'.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2017 17:09:33 GMT -5
Did you even read what I said??? If you did then it's clear he's going to have a big role in offense when players like Bolden and Slater have none. No I'm not saying he's just a backup, he'll get good playing time. Did you miss the 5-10 to half the carries? Yes it makes sense to pay Burkhead more than let's say they bring back Blount. He's a very good special teams player that can help your offense. He can do more than Blount and he is a massive upgrade over Bolden who did nothing more than special teams and yet made almost double what Blount made last year. He will allow us to have two early down RBs on roster which is huge. Something we haven't had in years. Doesn't the fact that Slater and Bolden both made almost double what Blount did last year tell you something? All they did was play special teams. A player that can do more than that is a massive upgrade on game day roster. Like I said before Bolden is a classic depth more, nothing more. He is a long shot to make roster unless an injury happens. If the Patriots bring back Blount, get an AP or draft a RB early, it will show you the teams true plans. Everyone expects them to do one of those things.
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Post by digit on Apr 6, 2017 19:15:38 GMT -5
If we're going by what you said before, you compared him to Bolden, a guy who got next to nothing to carries for a running back.
And then you say that Burkhead's paid 'not because a good well-rounded running back', but is going to be a "core special teamer'.
You shift from Bolden, a guy with practically no carries to '5-10 carries a game'. Then you claim you said half the carries.
Um, dude, a guy who can run, catch, and play special teams -is- a good, well-rounded running back. I don't even know why you are arguing this point.
For whatever reason, you keep arguing as though he's being paid to be an special teamer who can run the ball 'like Bolden', and I'm saying he's being paid to be a well-rounded RUNNING BACK. Which he is.
Perhaps YOU should be the one to read your own posts, hmmmm?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2017 19:27:39 GMT -5
Come on they didn't pay the guy 3.1 million because he's a good well rounded running back. He doesn't even have a 100 carries in his career. He got that because he's a core special teams player that is going to be a useful piece in our running game, unlike Bolden. Our 4 active RBs on game day will all be able to help offense. Which is something Bolden couldn't do. Think what Slater would be paid if he could actually play WR and give you true depth there. Think 2015 when Blount went down we had to bring in a guy off the street because Bolden is not a good runner. It killed our running game and might have cost us a Superbowl in my opinion. Burkhead helps make sure that never happens. In my opinion Bill is not expecting him to lead team in carries. That would be kind of crazy for a player that has never had more than around 75 carries in a season. Maybe he is awesome and he becomes the lead back, but I don't think that's the plan. Like I said before at most I think the plan is that he splits carries with a rookie or a Blount/AP. More likely he gets 5-10 carries a game. You bring him in for a few series a game to change up running styles and force the D to adjust to a new back. It's what teams like the Falcons, Cincy and Bills did last year and had great success. This is what I said, you just keep taking one thing I say and acting like I didn't say the rest.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2017 19:33:19 GMT -5
Do you really think he got over 3 million if he can't play special teams?
If let's say he replaces Blount as our work horse back, he most likely can't be a core special teams player.
We did not give him 3 plus million for him to be just a RB. His ability to play special teams was a huge part of it.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 6, 2017 19:42:16 GMT -5
Guys he got the money for both but I'd say mainly because they think he can be a productive back. But his downside of being able to contribute as a core special teamer was important too.
If you asked Belichick he would say "because he's a good football player that can help the team in a lot of different ways"
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Post by digit on Apr 6, 2017 21:50:10 GMT -5
Christmas on a bike, that's what I said earlier except he goes on and on about special teams because he has to defend his Bolden comparision, which was a crazy to begin with.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 6, 2017 21:58:11 GMT -5
Hahaha I said he's Bolden but a much better runner. Man you just like to make things up!
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Apr 7, 2017 5:00:48 GMT -5
Hahaha I said he's Bolden but a much better runner. Man you just like to make things up! So he's Bolden, but he's much better than Bolden? If we can say things like this then I'm Tom Brady, only I can't throw the ball as well. He's Burkhead. A better player than Bolden and they shouldn't be mentioned in the same conversation. The Patriots just like the versatility and that's why they overpaid. They've never had that many players who can catch, run, and play special teams. He's a very different player than anything the Patriots have had since probably Vrabel or Troy Brown. Just a do it all kind of player, a true football player.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 7, 2017 7:59:17 GMT -5
Bolden is making under a million dollars. His signing bonus was only 50k and his cap his is $695,000.... base salary if he makes the team is $775,000.
It can easily be viewed as a depth signing for camp and security purposes. They will bring in a veteran and/or some rookies and see if one of them can be better but feel comfortable they have a guy like Bolden who knows the system and can fit on special teams or as an emergency back if necessary. I put the odds of him making the roster a little better than 50/50. My guess is they hope he doesn't but are comfortable if he has to be.
Edit clarity: I say hope he doesn't but I should probably say - they hope someone else pushes him off. They know his ceiling and hope he continues to show that but that someone else more valuable bumps him. I don't want it to sound like they want him to play his way off.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 7, 2017 15:05:59 GMT -5
Hahaha I said he's Bolden but a much better runner. Man you just like to make things up! So he's Bolden, but he's much better than Bolden? If we can say things like this then I'm Tom Brady, only I can't throw the ball as well. He's Burkhead. A better player than Bolden and they shouldn't be mentioned in the same conversation. The Patriots just like the versatility and that's why they overpaid. They've never had that many players who can catch, run, and play special teams. He's a very different player than anything the Patriots have had since probably Vrabel or Troy Brown. Just a do it all kind of player, a true football player. Wow you have the nerve to make fun of me calling him Bolden but a much better runner. Then you compare him to Vrabel and Brown. At this point he is more like Bolden than Brown or Vrabel. Those guys were very good players that put up big numbers over long careers. Troy Brown is already in Patriots HOF and Vrabel most likely will be there one day. BTW you're nothing like Tom Brady, that's for sure!
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 8, 2017 13:12:42 GMT -5
1+1=2
1. You don't pay a RB that much money without expecting a lot out of him on offense. 1. If you expect a lot out of a RB on offense you cant also have him be a CORE special teamer. =2 If he does contribute a lot on offense then he won't on special teams. Maybe some but not a lot. As in he wont be out there covering kickoffs and punts.
Just seems like common sense to me but you never know. He isn't that big a guy to begin with to not expect wear and tear to be an issue.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 8, 2017 15:15:29 GMT -5
The silly thing is you all agree he's getting paid because he contributes in both phases. You're just fighting over nonsense
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 8, 2017 17:54:11 GMT -5
Patriots have an offer on table for Blount to return. I think that says everything in regards to Burkhead. They are not expecting him to lead team in carries like a bunch of you think for some reason. It just makes no sense. A guy with a 100 career carries, was not brought in to replace Blount. He was brought in to help him or another RB and improve overall RB depth.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 8, 2017 18:01:11 GMT -5
Patriots have an offer on table for Blount to return. I think that says everything in regards to Burkhead. They are not expecting him to lead team in carries like a bunch of you think for some reason. It just makes no sense. A guy with a 100 career carries, was not brought in to replace Blount. He was brought in to help him or another RB and improve overall RB depth. I don't know what their plans are but I don't think this proves what you are saying. So if their offer for Blount is half the money they are paying Burkhead that proves they don't want Burkhead to possibly lead the team in carries? Like I said I don't have much of an opinion on this but I don't think Belichick cares how many career carries a guy has. If he thinks a guy is good he's not going to care if the Bengals misused him or had better options. He traded a second round pick for a guy who was 5'9 and had under 100 career receptions.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 8, 2017 18:36:59 GMT -5
You guys are all hung up on the money. It's like whatever Mike Reiss says is 100% true. It was just his opinion, he said just that, not something that came from team. They paid Hogan more than Edleman last year, it didn't mean Hogan got more snaps. They paid Bolden more than Blount last year how many carries did he get?
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 8, 2017 18:39:37 GMT -5
I'm not hung up on anything I simply offered a counter point. You're hung up on how many carries he's had.
My point is u nor anyone else here knows their plans so all of you making definitive proclamations are off base.
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Post by digit on Apr 8, 2017 19:03:05 GMT -5
How about we discuss what he -could- do instead? Burkhead is basically the Danny Amendola signing. He's the highest paid RB, they'll give him the shot at being a starter, but the fallback is if he doesn't live up to it, he can be either the 3rd down back, or he can play special team. He's basically a RB swiss army knife, the way Amendola can start outside, be the 3rd down WR, or play special teams. *edit* Illustration of versatility: www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/film-review-rex-burkhead-provides-new-england-patriots-combination-power-quicknessThe best feature is this: Since they had him line up in the -slot- in Cincinnati, the Patriots could exploit him in audibles by having him line up there while Cooks goes to the outside, and Edelman shifts to the intermediate routes. www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/173758/bengals-call-rex-burkhead-a-running-back-but-keep-using-him-as-a-slot-receiverOr just line him wide, and switch up Cooks or Edelman at the slot, and really force defenders to try and figure out who to cover. This could be done on first, second, or third down, since he's able to catch the ball, and has enough wriggle to run the ball as a threat if they catch defenses in a nickel or dime situation - this will be really exploitable if they manage to find a defense they can run the no-huddle against - just exploit the mismatches whether in the spread offense, or the two-TE offense. He'd be basically a bigger version of Super Bowl James White. With more power running capability than White or Lewis, though Lewis is a more dynamic runner.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 9, 2017 1:51:08 GMT -5
It's a message board you give your opinions. That doesn't make you off base, it's just your opinion.
I like Burkhead, he's going to help us. He's another weapon and a well rounded player. It's not his lack of carries that completely shapes my opinion. It's his size. For 10 plus years Patriots like small pass catching RBs and pair them with big 220 pound plus RBs that can wear down a D. They went from Smith to Dillion to the Law Firm to Ridley to Blount. The only guy in that time frame around Burkhead's size is Maroney. One of our biggest busts and one of the few misses in first round under Bill.
So when you look at his size, lack of full-time role/carries, fact he's a core special teams player and they want to bring back Blount. To me that points to him being a weapon that can reduce our top RBs load, giving defenses a different look and all while being a core special teams player. Sure maybe something happens and he becomes our full-time RB. I just don't think that's the Plan they had in mind when they signed him.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 9, 2017 6:08:32 GMT -5
With guys like him I don't think they go in with a set plan. They certainly have an idea of what they'd like to do With him and where he can help then go from there and see how it plays out. The Patriots interest in Blount is real but I also think it's very limited. If I had to guess, they feel they had to rely on him too much and in situations where he's not good. Blount is only good in very specific spots and is really easy for an opponent to shut down when they want to shut down the running game. Judging by the contract I think they hope that Burkhead can take a lot of early down and early game running away from Blount. It will keep things more balanced.
Honestly, if you think about it. In an idea work Burkhead would replace Blount as the main back. Then Blount is the closer late in games when the defense is tired and the Patriots have the lead. Maybe Blount would get carries in certain situational spots as well but replacing him in first and second down in close game situations would be a nice upgrade.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 9, 2017 7:54:40 GMT -5
I understand the whole balanced attack thing and spreading the ball around but isn't there also something to be said for a back getting into a groove from repeated carries? My thoughts are this will give BB and JM that much more flexibility in specific game planning from game to game. The Pats are known for changing up what they do to keep other teams off balance by completely changing from game to game. Now they have a completely different type of back that will give them the ability to add more twists to the offense. One thing for sure is the Pats are very deep at the skill positions on O. I do hope they add Blount to that mix.
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Post by digit on Apr 9, 2017 10:08:18 GMT -5
There is something to be said about a groove from repeated carries, but in order to do that, you'd have to commit to it for a whole game. And sometimes, you just end up with slow starts against strong defenses because you've limited your playbook to run and play action passes with him in there. Note his postseason stats, with strong run defenses: www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BlouLe00/gamelog/post/Over the regular season, Blount's great because he can pretty much carry the load against weaker run defenses, but in the playoffs against strong run defenses (And no, the Colts D is NOT a strong run defense), he's a liability because he limits your offense, and why NE turned to Shane Vereen and James White in the Super Bowls.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 9, 2017 10:12:35 GMT -5
It's pretty much a given that Bill Belichick will find the best way to use all of his weapons and that it will vary from game to game and quarter to quarter and probably series to series.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 9, 2017 10:37:24 GMT -5
It's pretty much a given that Bill Belichick will find the best way to use all of his weapons and that it will vary from game to game and quarter to quarter and probably series to series. I know Belichick is the main reason for this but MCDaniels calls the plays so I just want to bring him into this like Voice did above. Just using this post as a spring board.
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