|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jul 21, 2017 18:09:08 GMT -5
I just lost a ton of respect for Irving. Wants to be the man. So playing with the best player in the game is a bad thing? Then says he wants to go to Knicks, Heat, Spurs or Timberwolves. I just don't see how any of those teams can trade for him. You don't trade him for Melo and the Unicorn makes little sense given there roster. Lots of players ask to be traded. Why wouldn't you want to jump off that sinking ship if you were him? It must be insufferable being around LeBron and the team trying to do everything for him and nothing for you then seeing him set up to bolt. I wanted Kyrie a couple years ago when rumors were swirling and would love to get our hands on him now. Let's send them IT, Crowder and Rozier and that Lakers/Kings pick. |
|
|
|
Post by texs31 on Jul 21, 2017 18:30:15 GMT -5
As some have suggested, Phoenix could make the most sense. Bledsoe, Warren and a 1st (maybe you throw in a wild card like Bender). Cleveland tacks on a salary like Frye or Shumpert.
|
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jul 21, 2017 19:19:47 GMT -5
As some have suggested, Phoenix could make the most sense. Bledsoe, Warren and a 1st (maybe you throw in a wild card like Bender). Cleveland tacks on a salary like Frye or Shumpert. Warren blows... Bledsoe had a terrible year... I can understand why they might be ok taking a chance on Bledsoe but Warren isn't much |
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 21, 2017 23:36:19 GMT -5
So Kyrie has told Gilbert he wants out. Things are about to get real interesting in the Land The Celtics are ready to pounce as the best team in the Eastern Conference if he does leave. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 22, 2017 11:37:21 GMT -5
I just lost a ton of respect for Irving. Wants to be the man. So playing with the best player in the game is a bad thing? Then says he wants to go to Knicks, Heat, Spurs or Timberwolves. I just don't see how any of those teams can trade for him. You don't trade him for Melo and the Unicorn makes little sense given there roster. Lots of players ask to be traded. Why wouldn't you want to jump off that sinking ship if you were him? It must be insufferable being around LeBron and the team trying to do everything for him and nothing for you then seeing him set up to bolt. I wanted Kyrie a couple years ago when rumors were swirling and would love to get our hands on him now. Let's send them IT, Crowder and Rozier and that Lakers/Kings pick. He wants to be the man and then lists two teams where he wouldn't be the man in the Spurs and Timberwolves. If LeBron is leaving in one more year he will be the man. The Cavs also can give him the 5 year super max contract. Also he helped recruit LeBron, then acts like he was blindsided, thinking he was going to be the man in Cleveland. Most stars demand trades because they want to win or our not getting playing time. Some like Melo want to play in a city for his wife. Irving seems to be demanding one because he is Jealous of LeBron. That doesn't fly with me, it seems so petty. That's like Pedroia wanting a trade because Ortiz was a bigger star. How is it a sinking ship? By all accounts they are still the favorites to get to the finals next year. If they are smart and do a sign and trade with LeBron, they won't sink. They will be better than the Heat or Knicks. It all makes no sense. |
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jul 22, 2017 11:52:53 GMT -5
That's one way to look at it and I can understand it as aninitial reaction but try and step back and look at it from Kyries perspective. He probably wants to be treated with the respect of a star player. Him and Love (granted Love even more) are not treated as stars in Cleveland. People in the game know he's a star but I'm talking about in the front office and inside the organization. LeBron runs it there and it's what he wants and that's it. Kyrie should be treated with the same respect. On top of all that - he's sitting there with all the rumors that LeBron is leaving and LeBron does nothing to dispute them which makes it seem highly likely that he's going to leave. He's already done it twice in his career so why wouldn't he do it again? Not that there is anything wrong with him leaving if he wants to but if I'm Kyrie in looking at that.
Also a player giving up the chance to get a supermax to be in a situation he likes better isn't something to lose respect over.
I think concluding the fact that he wants to be the man with being the best player may be incorrect. No NBA player wants to be by himself without other good players. It seems to me like he just wants to be treated as a star and an equal to the other star players. He's not now and I don't think that's bad for him to desire that. Also, it seems as though he talked to them about this before last season and nothing changed so that's on Cleveland and maybe even LeBron not Kyrie.
All that being said, I hop Danny is in on him. I'd hesitate to give up the 2018 Brooklyn pick but man IT, Crowder, Rozier (works money wise) then any other picks in good with.
|
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 22, 2017 15:11:20 GMT -5
www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20124505/kyrie-irving-seeking-trade-cleveland-cavaliersIf this was a respect thing I could understand that. Read the last third that has direct quotes from Kyrie. He thinks he's as good as LeBron and that LeBron holds him back. He doesn't want to be treated like a star, he wants to be treated like a superstar. He wants to be LeBron and thinks he's that good. Also while I agree about Love, they try and trade him every chance they get. Not sure how Kyrie doesn't get treated like a star by Cavs. They don't openly try and trade him. Thing is he is never going to get the LeBron treatment. LeBron is already one of the top 5 players of all-time in my book. When it's all done and over with he might be the best player ever. Without a supper team called the Warriors he would have won 3 straight titles. He goes to finals every year it seems. MJs Bulls were some great teams, but I don't see them beating the Warriors. As to trading for Irving, sure why not. I would include Smart over Rozier. That is an unlikely but highly interesting trade. For one it's the clear top 2 teams in East. Most likely battling for a spot in finals. Thing is you can make a case it's a win win for both teams. The Cavs get more depth and a player in Thomas that can do 90% of what Irving can. The Celtics create more playing time for Tatum etc., while getting a better, younger, bigger replacement for Thomas.
|
|
|
|
Post by voiceofreason on Jul 22, 2017 20:05:54 GMT -5
Must say it has been an interesting offseason so far. Who would have ever thought that the idea of trading for Kirie would be a conversation.
|
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 23, 2017 0:41:44 GMT -5
Must say it has been an interesting offseason so far. Who would have ever thought that the idea of trading for Kirie would be a conversation. It's not for the Celtics I'd imagine. |
|
|
|
Post by texs31 on Jul 23, 2017 9:16:19 GMT -5
For me, Kyrie is better than IT sure. But is he SO much better to use 2 rotation caliber players PLUS draft picks to get him?
And we'd still be without the rebounding and interior defense improvement that we need (with fewer assets to address that).
|
|
|
|
Post by voiceofreason on Jul 23, 2017 9:40:03 GMT -5
Must say it has been an interesting offseason so far. Who would have ever thought that the idea of trading for Kirie would be a conversation. It's not for the Celtics I'd imagine. I was referring to the fact that it is being discussed here. As for the C's, they will discuss it and not pursue it IMO but you never know. |
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jul 23, 2017 17:35:50 GMT -5
For me, Kyrie is better than IT sure. But is he SO much better to use 2 rotation caliber players PLUS draft picks to get him? And we'd still be without the rebounding and interior defense improvement that we need (with fewer assets to address that). Kyrie is that much better than IT. I wouldn't trade the Brooklyn pick with it and including Smart over Rozier is tough but Kyrie is a special player. Losing both Crowder and Smart would be a lot tougher but they now have Morris. Plus, we need minutes for Brown and Tatum. Also Kyrie isn't very good defensively, but he has the ability to be whereas IT doesn't simply due to his size. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 23, 2017 19:29:44 GMT -5
Here's some interesting news, LeBron won't waive no trade clause and is 100% committed to the Cavs for all of next year.
The Irving news gave LeBron a chance at an early out and he wants no part of it. Along with Irving not willing to wait one more year for LeBron to leave. It might not be the foregone conclusion that he is leaving, like all the reports say. As a Celtics fan I want him to leave. As a Basketball fan I hope he plays the rest of his career in Cleveland.
|
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jul 24, 2017 6:05:21 GMT -5
Here's some interesting news, LeBron won't waive no trade clause and is 100% committed to the Cavs for all of next year. The Irving news gave LeBron a chance at an early out and he wants no part of it. Along with Irving not willing to wait one more year for LeBron to leave. It might not be the foregone conclusion that he is leaving, like all the reports say. As a Celtics fan I want him to leave. As a Basketball fan I hope he plays the rest of his career in Cleveland. LeBron is a smart guy. Going thru the process of demanding a trade would ruin his legacy in Cleveland and likely for nothing. There is basically no way Cleveland and LeBron could find a suitable trade scenario at this point or really ever. He's just not tradable. LeBron would want to go somewhere to have a better chance of winning than he has in Cleveland and the team would neeed to her great value. Any team he'd go to would have to gut their team just to make salary work and then the team wouldn't be competitive. This is a nonstory with regards to LeBrons future with the Cavs. There literally is no way to trade him under those conditions, especially when considering he's a one year rental. That's not to say he's leaving Cleveland. I think it's clear he's strongly going to look into it regardless of if he does or not. He's definitely not committed to Cleveland after this season, right now, which is one of the problems that's hanging over the team. |
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,862
|
Post by wcp3 on Jul 24, 2017 10:14:15 GMT -5
LeBron has created a number of these issues by himself, from disrupting the front office from doing its job to making it clear he won't commit beyond next season. These issues are compounding by the fact that Gilbert is a complete and utter nitwit, which has led to Cleveland being a poorly run organization at all levels.
I don't blame LeBron for not wanting to commit to a bad organization for the rest of his career, but he deserves part of the blame for the issues hanging over the Cavs right now.
|
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2017 10:17:46 GMT -5
Well demanding a trade and waiving your no trade clause because the team wants to trade you are two massively different things Rip. I would argue that if Cleveland has to trade Irving the much younger player and then LeBron bolts next year he would have destroyed his legacy more. He would have cost them there top two players.
|
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2017 10:21:29 GMT -5
LeBron is part of the reason Cleveland is so poorly run though. They did a good job when he was gone. He forces them to make short term trades, because he cries to the media like a little girl. That being said there owner is a tool.
|
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,862
|
Post by wcp3 on Jul 24, 2017 12:27:25 GMT -5
They did a dreadful job when he was gone - they lucked their way into three #1 picks in four years and another top 5 pick, but couldn't stop tripping over themselves along the way.
Somehow, only one of those picks is still on the roster (Kyrie), and the guy they traded one of those picks for (Love) is someone they try to trade every chance they get.
And I haven't even mentioned the worst draft pick in history (Bennett), or the top 5 pick whose already played for three teams by age 25 (Waiters).
|
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2017 14:29:25 GMT -5
Bennett was a bad pick, but that was a horrible draft. Right now Irving, Wiggins and Waiters look like good picks. You also left out Thompson, which was another good pick. If you think that is bad I don't know what to say. That's an all star, a future all star, a rock solid center and a starting SG that just had a career year. Waiter also just got a nice big contract. Even Danny doesn't hit on every pick.
You also can't fault them for trading those guys, it got them to 3 straight title games. They also won a title.
|
|
|
|
Post by texs31 on Jul 24, 2017 14:47:45 GMT -5
Gotta ask. How do Marcus Smart and Dion Waiters compare as good or bad draft picks?
|
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jul 24, 2017 16:12:36 GMT -5
Well demanding a trade and waiving your no trade clause because the team wants to trade you are two massively different things Rip. I would argue that if Cleveland has to trade Irving the much younger player and then LeBron bolts next year he would have destroyed his legacy more. He would have cost them there top two players. Kyrie doesn't have a legacy in Cleveland; it's all LeBron so I don't think he's too worried about that. Also, this is probably LeBrons secret dream scenario as it gives him every excuse he needs to leave and will take a lot of heat off of him. I am also in agreement with both you and wcp that I don't blame LeBron for maybe leaving that dysfunction but that it's also partially his doing. He's also compounding it this offseason. |
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jul 24, 2017 16:21:05 GMT -5
Gotta ask. How do Marcus Smart and Dion Waiters compare as good or bad draft picks? Barnes, Ross and Drummond were taken right after Waiters who are all better in my opinion so it's not a great pick. Waiters was slow to develop tho that could change. Randle, Staukus, Vonleh, Elfrid Payton and McDermott were the picks following Smart.After that group you get Saric, Warren and LeVine but it's hard to say Danny missed on any of them but maybe Saric (bc he was in the discussion at the time) but he wouldn't have given anything for the first few years. I think Smart was a much better pick when taking draft class into account which is only fair way to do it. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2017 16:43:58 GMT -5
Gotta ask. How do Marcus Smart and Dion Waiters compare as good or bad draft picks? That's a tricky question as one has played for 3 teams and one has only played for one team. Waiters has looked good when the coaches use him right. For example his second season was very good. Then all the changes in Cleveland, then he was traded. Last year was a great year for him. His 3 point shot is a weapon. He was a starter on a playoff team. Not a very skilled team either. He was one of there leading scorers. Smart won't be a starter level player till he increases his shooting. From what I've seen I don't know if that happens. That's always been my issue with him. I can't think of a starter on a good team that is anything like him. He's not as skilled as a Rondo or Rubio. He's not even close to a Tony Allen level defender. Right now he's a good back-up pg that plays good D. Now like I have always said if Smart can improve his shoot my opinion will change. For the record can we please just move on from this? You know my opinions yet you always feel the need, along with others to keep bring this up. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 24, 2017 16:53:15 GMT -5
The pick right after him was Robinson. So that's a great pick compared to him. Ross? I think Waiters is better, more upside. Lillard was a small school guy wasn't he? Three teams missed out on him. Drummond had one of the worst seasons of a high recruit every. He wasn't very good. Barnes just had his first big season in year 5. That's using a lot of hindsight. He wasn't a great pick, but a good one.
Edit- In my opinion you can look at Randle and Saric as guys we missed out on. Both were being talked about at the time. It all comes down to if Smart can improve his shot.
|
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,862
|
Post by wcp3 on Jul 24, 2017 19:40:54 GMT -5
Bennett was a bad pick, but that was a horrible draft. Right now Irving, Wiggins and Waiters look like good picks. You also left out Thompson, which was another good pick. If you think that is bad I don't know what to say. That's an all star, a future all star, a rock solid center and a starting SG that just had a career year. Waiter also just got a nice big contract. Even Danny doesn't hit on every pick. You also can't fault them for trading those guys, it got them to 3 straight title games. They also won a title. Lol, Waiters was not a good pick, and even if we pretend he was, it's not like they held onto him. Irving and Wiggins were the correct picks, but there wasn't much debate on who was going #1 either year. I guess I'll give them credit for not screwing it's up. And the whole "it was a bad draft" narrative doesn't mean you pick someone who was never going to be the best player in that draft. Once again, you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing. |
|
