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Boston Red Sox GM's Past And Present
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 6, 2018 16:56:19 GMT -5
I'm going to rewind a little bit to the late 1950s to try to understand how Dick O'Connell came to power in 1965, assumed full control of baseball operations in the 1966-67 time frame, and then ultimately was unseated in 1977 when Jean Yawkey decided to sell the team to Haywood Sullivan. First of all, from today's perspective, the Red Sox of the late 1950s were in disarray as an organization. After early successes, especially in acquiring talent from the St. Louis Browns, Joe Cronin had presided over the inexorable decay of the team throughout the decade. By 1958, Ted Williams was 40 years old, Jimmy Piersall was slowing down, and Jackie Jensen, while still in his prime, was in his early 30s and a liability because the coming age of air travel was going to drive him from the game. Frank Malzone was an outstanding third baseman; like Boggs, he was a late bloomer who spent his first real year in MLB at age 27. The rest of the Boston infield (Buddin, Runnels, Wertz/Gernert) was patchwork. Sammy White was a top-flight catcher, but he was also heading into his 30s and his productive years were behind him. The positional depth was abysmal, especially in terms of young players from the minors. The pitching staff was consistently mediocre - Frank Sullivan, Tom Brewer, Ike Delock, Willard Nixon, surrounded by cast-offs from other clubs. Bill Monbouquette arrived in 1958, and Earl Wilson in 1959, and they were the only good young arms coming out of the minor league system. Then, of course, we have the race issue. Wilson, of course, might well have supplanted Pumpsie Green as the Red Sox' first African-American player in 1959, but was on military reserve duty for the Minneapolis Millers at the time. There's no need to hijack this thread -- we've all read millions of words about the Red Sox and integration -- but let it just be said that they had an almost complete absence of nonwhite talent in their minor league system throughout the 1950s; I just scanned their 1958 affiliates in B-Ref, and found two nonwhite past or future MLB players (Green and Jose Valdivielso, a journeyman shortstop who played for Washington) among their six affiliates. It must have been obvious, even to someone as loyal as Tom Yawkey, that Cronin needed to be replaced. So when the 70-year-old American League president, Will Harridge, retired in January 1959, Yawkey pulled the strings needed to get Cronin elected as the league's chief executive. However, having given Cronin a safe landing into a higher-profile job, Yawkey needed to find someone to replace him. So for some reason, he turned to the 62-year-old Bucky Harris, the old "boy wonder" skipper of 1924 fame then working as Cronin's top assistant, and made him the new general manager. Harris had managed in MLB for 30 years but had never been a big-league GM. With the team suddenly in rapid decline in 1959, Harris made a number of trades for marginal players, replaced Pinky Higgins with Billy Jurges as Sox manager in July 1959 (supposedly without Yawkey's permission), and broke the Sox' color barrier by promoting Green in July. His high-profile trades (trading White, who retired rather than play for Cleveland, and dealing away bonus baby Frank Baumann, who led the AL in ERA in 1960 with the White Sox) blew up in his face. Significantly, Yawkey bypassed the team's farm and scouting director, Johnny Murphy, the old Yankee relief ace, for the GM vacancy. Murphy had been in his job about the same amount of time as Cronin was in his, since 1948, and he certainly had not set the world on fire either. (In fairness, and as a footnote, Murphy was the farm/scouting director in 1959 when Carl Yastrzemski was signed by Bots Nekola to his first Red Sox contract, so credit must be given there.) By 1960, Ted Williams was in his last season. The team went 65-89 and finished ahead of only the atrocious Kansas City A's. Yastrzemski was in Triple-A at Minneapolis; he was the only bright light on the horizon. Jensen, 33, had retired because of his phobia about flying. Harris' hand-picked manager, Jurges, was self-destructing because of nerves. Pinky Higgins, lurking in the wings as a "special assistant" to Yawkey, reclaimed the managerial job in June when Jurges was fired -- and surely the handwriting was on the wall for the overmatched Harris as well. The owner was 57 and at the helm of a rudderless ship. I've looked through the Globe archives and there were multiple articles from 1960 speculating that Williams would become manager, Higgins would become general manager, etc. The Sox were supposedly trying to get Ralph Houk (a coach then for Stengel) or Yogi Berra (coming to the end of the line as a player) from the Yankees to take over the managerial job. Just an ungodly mess. So in late September, a day or so after Williams' final game, Yawkey fired Harris and Johnny Murphy. Williams became an executive assistant to Yawkey. Dick O'Connell, who had come up through the Red Sox front office on the business side and held the title of business manager by 1958, was made executive vice president. Higgins was given a new three-year contract as field manager and given authority over all playing personnel, major and minor league, in the Boston organization. Neil Mahoney, perhaps the unsung hero in the 1967-and-beyond revival of the Red Sox, was appointed to Murphy's old job as farm and scouting director. Per the Red Sox media guide, the position of general manager was abolished, although it appeared to be shared between O'Connell (business) and Higgins (baseball). Two years later, after the 1962 season, Higgins quit as manager and became full-time GM. He and O'Connell, still in charge of business affairs, shared the same title of EVP and (one assumes) each reported to Yawkey. That structure was in place through 1965, when Higgins, finally, was fired on September 16. Higgins' firing made O'Connell the unquestioned boss of the Red Sox, reporting to Yawkey, and the team began a search for a "director of player personnel" to function under O'Connell as his top baseball operations executive. The Globe archives from the autumn of 1965 include a number of candidates, like Danny Murtaugh, Sam Mele (manager of the AL champion Twins), Grady Hatton and Eddie Lopat. But the job went to the 34-year-old rookie manager of the Athletics, former Sox catcher Haywood Sullivan. Sullivan soon created his own pipeline to Tom and Jean Yawkey, with whom he became exceptionally close. He also was widely liked by the Boston press. Nevertheless, O'Connell slowly broadened his authority within baseball operations, especially during 1967 with his hiring of Dick Williams and his acquisitions of Adair, Bell and Howard. It's unclear what Sullivan's diminished role in the early 1970s was, except perhaps as O'Connell's special assistant. Then, after Mahoney died in May 1973, O'Connell moved Sullivan into the scouting director role. I think it's interesting to note that, while O'Connell held the title of executive vice president and general manager from 1965-77 he was responsible for both the baseball and business operations of the team -- more of a chief operating officer working directly under Tom Yawkey. I recall that O'Connell himself was not simply involved in player transactions, hiring managers and coaches, etc., but also in areas like the awarding of the Red Sox' television rights to WSBK-TV in 1975. O'Connell did begin to hire assistants on the business side in the 1970s -- John Donovan, John Harrington, John Alevizos, and finally Gene Kirby -- presumably to take some of the administrative load off his plate while he focused on baseball operations. Then, after the 1975 World Series, O'Connell made a significant move in baseball operations when he hired John Claiborne as assistant general manager and his official #2 guy. This may have confirmed to Sullivan that, apart from being scouting director, his path to promotion and resumption of power had been blocked. Tom Yawkey's death in July 1976 and Jean Yawkey's inheritance of the team changed the entire dynamic. She and O'Connell did not get along. Sullivan may have had her ear and she was highly critical of how the team was operated. Surprisingly, she waited until October 1977 before firing O'Connell (Kirby and Claiborne), and handing the team over to Sullivan and Buddy LeRoux. When the American League rejected the sale as it was initially constituted (without her part ownership), she joined Sullivan and LeRoux' group herself. The team began to decline after 1978, endured multiple PR disasters, and finally found itself torn apart by the Coup LeRoux ownership squabble. (Which O'Connell found himself embroiled in, as noted above. It's interesting that his departure was so bitter in 1977, he refused to set foot inside Fenway Park until the day of the coup.) Dick O'Connell's Wikipedia bio.
Haywood Sullivan's Wikipedia bio.
Pinky Higgins'.
Buddy LeRoux'.Thanks James for posting all of this. I really appreciate it. Very interesting dynamics at work. I don't think O'Connell thought that Sullivan was particularly bright. I'll always wonder what direction the Sox might have gone off in had the ownership group with the most money, the one led by Dominic DiMaggio if it had been awarded the team. Unfortunately the league wanted to keep the team under the Yawkey name. I never could quite get a fix on O'Connell's role in Coup LeRoux. I did meet him once at a SABR meeting shortly before he passed away but I can't recall much of what he said. I seem to remember that he said he was involved with it but didn't intend on really being the GM. I also recall him saying something to the effect that he had no choice but to trade Lyle implying that the decision about that deal was made from above based on non-baseball reasons.
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giltg
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Post by giltg on Feb 8, 2018 17:36:27 GMT -5
The San Diego Padres were formed in 1936 after the Hollywood stars move to San Diego after 10 years in Hollywood and played in the Pacific Coast League at Lane Field in San Diego California. The Padres were the Boston Red Sox 1936 AA affiliate. In 1936 the Padres signed a young Hometown pitcher name Ted Williams. Williams was still in high school at the time he signed in 1936 and wore the No. 19. Williams was later moved to the Outfield and hit point 287 23 home runs 109 RBIs in 180 games with the Padres in 1936 and 1937. When the Stars moved to San Diego they brought another future Red Sox star in second baseman Bobby Doerr would become his pro career at the age of 16 with the Stars. Bobby doerr played for the Padres in the 1936 season amassing a .342 batting average with 238 hits that year that summer is contract was purchased by Boston Red Sox Scout Eddie Collins who also Inked Ted Williams on the same trip. Bobby would go on and be the opening day second baseman for the Boston Red Sox in 1937.The 1937 season saw the San Diego Padres won the Pacific coast League Championship which saw Ted Williams hit all 23 of his home runs in that season and drove in 98 runs . would be Williams last season with the Padres moving on to the Minneapolis Millers and The following season would be starting left fielder for the Boston Red Sox. The Minneapolis Millers originated in 1884 who played in the Western League until 1899 and played their games at Athletic Park . In 1902 the Minneapolis Millers resurfaced in the American Association and played there until 1960 when they made room for the Minnesota Twins. The Boston Red Sox were affiliated with Minneapolis between the years of 1936-1938 and 1958-1960. The Millers most famous Red Sox alumni where Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski Bill Monbouquette Galen Cisco Gene Mauch and Earl Wilson. 1938 saw Ted Williams play his last season in minor league ball with the Millers while being coached by the great Rogers Hornsby.During the 1938 season Williams would end up hitting.366 with 46 home runs and 142 rbi's he would receive American association's Triple Crown. Carl Yastrzemski who played for the Millers in the 1959 postseason can the 1960 season before moving on to the Boston Red Sox in 1961.In 1959 Yaz started the season with the Raleigh Capitals hitting .377 ba. Other notable Minneapolis Millers alumni Orlando Cepeda Willie Mays Hoyt Wilhelm Felipe Alou Chuck Tanner
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giltg
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Post by giltg on Feb 10, 2018 20:52:59 GMT -5
This is a Boston Red Sox Minor League affiliate from 1995-2002, the Michigan Battle Cats logo.
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Post by webster7777 on Feb 11, 2018 2:27:45 GMT -5
I think the best GM in Red Sox history was Theo. That is my opinion only. GM's do make mistakes in player personnel all the time but Theo seemed to make better decisions than most.
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giltg
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When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
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Post by giltg on Feb 12, 2018 0:56:03 GMT -5
The Louisville Colonels were a Red Sox minor league affiliate 1939-1955 and again in 1968-1972.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 12, 2018 11:21:20 GMT -5
I think the best GM in Red Sox history was Theo. That is my opinion only. GM's do make mistakes in player personnel all the time but Theo seemed to make better decisions than most. Nah, that's a fact.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2018 11:38:30 GMT -5
I think the best GM in Red Sox history was Theo. That is my opinion only. GM's do make mistakes in player personnel all the time but Theo seemed to make better decisions than most. Nah, that's a fact. This. Theo will be the 3rd Red Sox GM to be in the Hall of Fame eventually. That happens when you take a team that hasn't won a World Series in 86 years and win the World Series, then you rebuild them 3 years later into World Champions again, and then you go to another franchise who hasn't won in over 100 years and build the team pretty much from scratch and make them World Champions. If Theo were to retire today I have little doubt he'd wind up in the Hall of Fame sooner or later. In a way he's the prototype for today's young ivy league educated modern stats driven analytics GM (the kind that agents today absolutely hate dealing with!), but to his credit he never lost an eye for the human element that is still a big part of baseball. Now when I say he's the 3rd GM of the Red Sox to be in the HOF, that's technically true. Eddie Collins and Joe Cronin were Red Sox GMs and they're in the HOF, but certainly NOT for their executive prowess. Theo was Red Sox GM from 2003 - 2011 and the team averaged 93 wins/year. They not only won but he managed to sustain them. That's a helluva performance. I'll always feel like those years were kind of the "Camelot" years for the Red Sox. I knew they had the best and brightest running the team - if only John Henry would have allowed him the autonomy that he gives Dombrowski or the autonomy that Theo now enjoys in Chicago. So yes, your opinion has a lot behind it. I think O'Connell did a really good job given the circumstances he dealt with. Gorman was good for his time, but that time kind of started to pass him by toward the end. Duquette had his good qualities despite some of his drawbacks. And for the most part I think Dombrowski is a good GM, but I also think Theo is clearly the best.
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giltg
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Post by giltg on Feb 12, 2018 11:45:35 GMT -5
I totally agree on Theo being the best GM in Sox history just for the reason of bringing two World Series titles to Boston. But with the research that I've done on the other GM's Dick O'Connell has to be right there with him signing players such as Carlton Fisk Fred Lynn Dwight Evans Jim Rice Jim Lonborg.Trading for Tiant Bernie Carbo Fergie Jenkins Reggie Cleveland Rick Wise. He also made some very bad trades like Sparky Lyle to the Yankees trading away Tony Conigliaro. And one trade in particular that was one sided with the Brewers where he gave up Billy Conigliaro Don Pavletich George Scott Jim Lonborg Joe Lahoud and Ken Brett for Lew Krause Marty Pattin Pat Skrable and Tommy Harper.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2018 14:13:52 GMT -5
I totally agree on Theo being the best GM in Sox history just for the reason of bringing two World Series titles to Boston. But with the research that I've done on the other GM's Dick O'Connell has to be right there with him signing players such as Carlton Fisk Fred Lynn Dwight Evans Jim Rice Jim Lonborg.Trading for Tiant Bernie Carbo Fergie Jenkins Reggie Cleveland Rick Wise. He also made some very bad trades like Sparky Lyle to the Yankees trading away Tony Conigliaro. And one trade in particular that was one sided with the Brewers where he gave up Billy Conigliaro Don Pavletich George Scott Jim Lonborg Joe Lahoud and Ken Brett for Lew Krause Marty Pattin Pat Skrable and Tommy Harper. O'Connell was a good GM. He let Neil Mahoney do his job which he did extremely well. I don't lay the Lyle deal at O'Connell's feet. There was more going on to that than O'Connell suddenly getting stupid - I believe from the hints he provided that the deal was made from above him. One of the worst deals he made that you didn't mention was dealing young up-and-coming OF Ben Oglivie to the Tigers for washed up Dick McAuliffe. The deal with the Brewers where he dealt Billy C, Scott, Lonborg, and Brett for Pattin and Harper wasn't great, but it wasn't awful. Harper had a very strong 1973 season and Pattin looked like one of the better young pitchers for a little bit. Only Scott did anything significant for Milwaukee. But yes, O'Connell wasn't always the best deal maker although he did make some good ones. Imagine a great young team picking up a HOF talent like Fergie Jenkins.
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giltg
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When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
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Post by giltg on Feb 12, 2018 19:09:40 GMT -5
I totally agree on Theo being the best GM in Sox history just for the reason of bringing two World Series titles to Boston. But with the research that I've done on the other GM's Dick O'Connell has to be right there with him signing players such as Carlton Fisk Fred Lynn Dwight Evans Jim Rice Jim Lonborg.Trading for Tiant Bernie Carbo Fergie Jenkins Reggie Cleveland Rick Wise. He also made some very bad trades like Sparky Lyle to the Yankees trading away Tony Conigliaro. And one trade in particular that was one sided with the Brewers where he gave up Billy Conigliaro Don Pavletich George Scott Jim Lonborg Joe Lahoud and Ken Brett for Lew Krause Marty Pattin Pat Skrable and Tommy Harper. O'Connell was a good GM. He let Neil Mahoney do his job which he did extremely well. I don't lay the Lyle deal at O'Connell's feet. There was more going on to that than O'Connell suddenly getting stupid - I believe from the hints he provided that the deal was made from above him. One of the worst deals he made that you didn't mention was dealing young up-and-coming OF Ben Oglivie to the Tigers for washed up Dick McAuliffe. The deal with the Brewers where he dealt Billy C, Scott, Lonborg, and Brett for Pattin and Harper wasn't great, but it wasn't awful. Harper had a very strong 1973 season and Pattin looked like one of the better young pitchers for a little bit. Only Scott did anything significant for Milwaukee. But yes, O'Connell wasn't always the best deal maker although he did make some good ones. Imagine a great young team picking up a HOF talent like Fergie Jenkins. Let me ask you and whoever else may read this post in the in this thread. What was the worst trade and free agent signing in Red Sox history. You have already said Ben Ogilvie to the Tigers for a washed-up Dick McAuliffe is your worst trade by O'Connell. But is that the worst in history? It's easy for me to say the worst free agent signing in the Red Sox history is Pablo Sandoval. The worst trade in history would have to be Babe Ruth to the Yankees for $100,000. With inflation that would be $1,494,084.85 in 2018.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2018 20:14:27 GMT -5
O'Connell was a good GM. He let Neil Mahoney do his job which he did extremely well. I don't lay the Lyle deal at O'Connell's feet. There was more going on to that than O'Connell suddenly getting stupid - I believe from the hints he provided that the deal was made from above him. One of the worst deals he made that you didn't mention was dealing young up-and-coming OF Ben Oglivie to the Tigers for washed up Dick McAuliffe. The deal with the Brewers where he dealt Billy C, Scott, Lonborg, and Brett for Pattin and Harper wasn't great, but it wasn't awful. Harper had a very strong 1973 season and Pattin looked like one of the better young pitchers for a little bit. Only Scott did anything significant for Milwaukee. But yes, O'Connell wasn't always the best deal maker although he did make some good ones. Imagine a great young team picking up a HOF talent like Fergie Jenkins. Let me ask you and whoever else may read this post in the in this thread. What was the worst trade and free agent signing in Red Sox history. You have already said Ben Ogilvie to the Tigers for a washed-up Dick McAuliffe is your worst trade by O'Connell. But is that the worst in history? It's easy for me to say the worst free agent signing in the Red Sox history is Pablo Sandoval. The worst trade in history would have to be Babe Ruth to the Yankees for $100,000. With inflation that would be $1,494,084.85 in 2018. Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen is up there and it wasn't second guessing. The farm director was really pissed off and wanted to quit when he heard that trade was going down. Andersen was a good reliever but the farm director knew what he had in Bagwell. The Astros knew too. Lou Gorman didn't know what he had. The Red Sox dumped Bill Lee for Stan Papi. Fergie Jenkins went for Jon Poloni - who? Lyle for Cater and Guerrero was brutal. Pee Wee Reese was sold because Cronin didn't want his job threatened. Babe Ruth really wasn't a trade, but rather a sale, part of the rape of the Red Sox where the Sox were constantly making lopsided deals or selling players outright. Later on in that era Red Ruffing was traded for Cedric Durst, which was an awful deal. Ban Johnson instigated a deal where the Sox traded Tris Speaker (sure Joe Lannin was fine with that as he didn't really want to pay him) although the Sox recouped a little value with Sam Jones, but still...not a deal you'd willingly want to make. Johnson earlier had made the Sox trade Patsy Dougherty away to NY, which started a terrible trend, and later on Carl Mays was that first domino to fall before Ruth went. In a vacuum Carl Crawford was the worst signing, but at least the Sox were able to dump that contract and use the savings to obtain players who actually contributed to a surprise Championship in 2013. The most totally useless signing was the aforementioned Sandoval signing. In earlier times the Matt Young signing was awful. Not that the accompanying Jack Clark or Danny Darwin signings worked out well, but at least both of those guys had one good season in them. Young was totally useless. Tony Clark, a lower profile signing, was an absolute disaster. Theo has said he was a big part of the Sox not winning a playoff spot in 2002. Those are transactions that come immediately to mind. At least the Sox got some value out of the Mike Torrez signing and the Bill Campbell signing, but not that much.
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giltg
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Post by giltg on Feb 12, 2018 20:35:27 GMT -5
O'Connell was a good GM. He let Neil Mahoney do his job which he did extremely well. I don't lay the Lyle deal at O'Connell's feet. There was more going on to that than O'Connell suddenly getting stupid - I believe from the hints he provided that the deal was made from above him. One of the worst deals he made that you didn't mention was dealing young up-and-coming OF Ben Oglivie to the Tigers for washed up Dick McAuliffe. The deal with the Brewers where he dealt Billy C, Scott, Lonborg, and Brett for Pattin and Harper wasn't great, but it wasn't awful. Harper had a very strong 1973 season and Pattin looked like one of the better young pitchers for a little bit. Only Scott did anything significant for Milwaukee. But yes, O'Connell wasn't always the best deal maker although he did make some good ones. Imagine a great young team picking up a HOF talent like Fergie Jenkins. Let me ask you and whoever else may read this post in the in this thread. What was the worst trade and free agent signing in Red Sox history. You have already said Ben Ogilvie to the Tigers for a washed-up Dick McAuliffe is your worst trade by O'Connell. But is that the worst in history? It's easy for me to say the worst free agent signing in the Red Sox history is Pablo Sandoval. The worst trade in history would have to be Babe Ruth to the Yankees for $100,000. With inflation that would be $1,494,084.85 in 2018. You're right about the Babe Ruth sale not being a trade. My second choice was Jon Lesterand Jonny Gomes for Yoenis Cespedes. And in the end it turned out to be Jon Lester for Rick Porcello. And I would take Lester over Porcello.
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Post by Coreno on Feb 12, 2018 20:57:57 GMT -5
You're right about the Babe Ruth sale not being a trade. My second choice was Jon Lester and Jonny Gomes for Yoenis Cespedes. And in the end it turned out to be Jon Lester for Rick Porcello. And I would take Lester over Porcello. That wasn't even the worst trade of that day in Red Sox history.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2018 21:03:53 GMT -5
Let me ask you and whoever else may read this post in the in this thread. What was the worst trade and free agent signing in Red Sox history. You have already said Ben Ogilvie to the Tigers for a washed-up Dick McAuliffe is your worst trade by O'Connell. But is that the worst in history? It's easy for me to say the worst free agent signing in the Red Sox history is Pablo Sandoval. The worst trade in history would have to be Babe Ruth to the Yankees for $100,000. With inflation that would be $1,494,084.85 in 2018. You're right about the Babe Ruth sale not being a trade. My second choice was Jon Lesterand Jonny Gomes for Yoenis Cespedes. And in the end it turned out to be Jon Lester for Rick Porcello. And I would take Lester over Porcello. Even when Lester was helping the Cubs to win the Series the trade didn't look so bad in 2016 when Porcello was winning a Cy Young award. Dealing Lester away for Porcello via Cespedes wasn't the issue - all three players are quality players although Lester > Porcello. The issue was not re-signing Lester to go with Porcello. And like Coreno said getting very little for Lackey wasn't a good deal, although Joe Kelly isn't a total loss - it just feels like one. These aren't good trades, but they're not anywhere near the worst. On a side issue, the Sox made bigger mistakes not giving Jackie Robinson (and Sam Jethroe) a contract when they had a chance, not seriously scouting Willie Mays when they had a chance, and even screwing over Piper Davis who deserved a chance. Those were worse mistakes than a lot of the aforementioned deals.
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giltg
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When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
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Post by giltg on Feb 12, 2018 21:18:21 GMT -5
What are you talking about you didn't like the Stephen Drew to the Yankees for Kelly Johnson trade? Oh you mean the John Lackey deal that sent him and Corey Littrell and cash to St Louis and the Sox got Allen Craig and Joe Kelly back Refresh my memory wasn't Sox Nation and everyone fed up with Lackey with the whole fried chicken-and-beer thing and I think I just read that somebody was saying that no one like the John Lackey deal when he was signed as a free agent. Allen Craig was a total bust and Joe Kelly didn't turn out to be the starter that the Sox thought. So I can see that being worse than Lester Cespedes trade. But Cherington made a trade the day before for a player who may impact the 2018 season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2018 21:44:45 GMT -5
What are you talking about you didn't like the Stephen Drew to the Yankees for Kelly Johnson trade? Oh you mean the John Lackey deal that sent him and Corey Littrell and cash to St Louis and the Sox got Allen Craig and Joe Kelly back Refresh my memory wasn't Sox Nation and everyone fed up with Lackey with the whole fried chicken-and-beer thing and I think I just read that somebody was saying that no one like the John Lackey deal when he was signed as a free agent. Allen Craig was a total bust and Joe Kelly didn't turn out to be the starter that the Sox thought. So I can see that being worse than Lester Cespedes trade. But Cherington made a trade the day before for a player who may impact the 2018 season. In July 2014 nobody cared about "Chicken and Beer". Lackey had helped the Red Sox to a World Championship and was in the midst of a good season in 2014 - it was obvious to most everybody that Lackey had been lousy early on with the Sox because he had been hurt - he had no business pitching in 2011 with a torn rotation cuff. Lackey had some sort of option that could kick in at a really ridiculously low rate - something that made him quite valuable. The hope was if you were going to trade Lester, then you better get something really good for Lackey. The only good deal he made that day was getting a valuable prospect for Andrew Miller when he got Eduardo Rodriguez, but of course, like Lester, the Sox were runners up when it came time to sign him back as a free agent and he went to the Yankees. Ideally, the Sox would trade away Lester and Miller, and sign them back as free agents the way the Yankees traded Chapman away for Torres, and then signed Chapman back as a free agent. The problem is that Kelly wasn't what Cherington hoped he'd be, and he took on a bad contract in Craig, who was finished as a major leaguer at that point. So basically Cherington got a terrible contract and a middle reliever for a valuable affordable starter. As an aside, it seems to me that when the Red Sox REALLY want a free agent, they'll blow the field away for him, but when they really, really don't want him that badly, they'll make an offer they suspect is just good enough to lose. I suspect that's what will happen with JDM. They'll make an offer they think he can refuse, and he'll wind up elsewhere (Arizona I suspect). They didn't take that kind of a chance with Price, nor Moncada, when they wanted to sign him, or Daisuke when they wanted to sign him, but were quite willing to take that chance with Lester and even Andrew Miller to an extent.
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Post by tonyc on Feb 12, 2018 22:04:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the wonderful history, in particular JMS (abbreviating). I particularly didn’t like the Sox trading away Cecile Cooper, as he was a consistently great hitter from the minors on up. Oconell on the whole, it seemed made more bad trades than good, but this was far superseded by the amazing and continuous rich farm system during his era. There were constantly great hitters, and even lots of great pitching prospects too. A Detroit scout around 1970 said the Sox had more good young pitchers than anyone. Unfortunately, this was an era of abuse and sore arms. Some he probably had in mind were Mcglothen, Curtis, Skok, Garmen, Pole, Moret, Brett. These were the nostalgic Sox of my youth which, despite not winning as they did later, I loved more. I played baseball in Montreal during summers with my cousin and loved that pinkish color on their baseball cards. Around the clock we either played baseball, practiced it, played stratomatic and talked it or went to Jarry Park for Expos games- my aunt finally had to ban baseball talk at the table during meals.
On the whole I agree with Theo being the best. Duquette second- despite a lack of social skills he was clever and singlehandedly made low cost aquisitions prior to 1995, similar to Cherington prior to 2013 that won that division, aside from other successful seasons with clear limits by Harrington until the very end. Oconell would be close to tied with him. And the Dombrowski on the whole has been good, though limited their window severely. Gorman trails all of them, as he was a nice person but had too much of a win now mentality which scared me even before Bagwell.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2018 22:59:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the wonderful history, in particular JMS (abbreviating). I particularly didn’t like the Sox trading away Cecile Cooper, as he was a consistently great hitter from the minors on up. Oconell on the whole, it seemed made more bad trades than good, but this was far superseded by the amazing and continuous rich farm system during his era. There were constantly great hitters, and even lots of great pitching prospects too. A Detroit scout around 1970 said the Sox had more good young pitchers than anyone. Unfortunately, this was an era of abuse and sore arms. Some he probably had in mind were Mcglothen, Curtis, Skok, Garmen, Pole, Moret, Brett. These were the nostalgic Sox of my youth which, despite not winning as they did later, I loved more. I played baseball in Montreal during summers with my cousin and loved that pinkish color on their baseball cards. Around the clock we either played baseball, practiced it, played stratomatic and talked it or went to Jarry Park for Expos games- my aunt finally had to ban baseball talk at the table during meals. On the whole I agree with Theo being the best. Duquette second- despite a lack of social skills he was clever and singlehandedly made low cost aquisitions prior to 1995, similar to Cherington prior to 2013 that won that division, aside from other successful seasons with clear limits by Harrington until the very end. Oconell would be close to tied with him. And the Dombrowski on the whole has been good, though limited their window severely. Gorman trails all of them, as he was a nice person but had too much of a win now mentality which scared me even before Bagwell. I'd pick O'Connell over Duquette, but I can see it the other way too. To be fair to Gorman I think there was a similar win now pressure he faced that Dombrowski faced in Detroit where he worked for an aging owner. I think there was a pressure to win while the Yawkey name was still attached to the Red Sox. Perhaps he wouldn't have been win at all costs if Schiraldi/Stanley had managed to get the last out they needed in 1986. But after that it was do whatever it took to win now for Mrs. Yawkey. Sadly it didn't happen. I think Gorman did a good job helping with the building of the KC Royals teams that went onto success in the mid 70s and I think he contributed to the Mets who eventually won in 86 - and giving them Bobby Ojeda certainly helped.
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Post by jamesmcgillstatue on Feb 13, 2018 15:58:27 GMT -5
Agree that Theo Epstein is #1 in terms of the best GM the Sox have had, and with the sentiment that he should have been given the autonomy, title and money to stay here indefinitely well before 2011. Two wild cards: (1) I wonder if, in addition to Lucchino, Epstein was chafing at the input of Tom Werner, a much larger fish in the Sox' ownership pond than Lucky Larry, albeit with a smaller profile. But with his show-biz cred and his (apparent) oversight of NESN, Werner easily could have been pressing hard for marquee players to be signed to reverse the decline in the Sox' TV rankings ca. 2009-10. In addition, as a former Southern Californian who remembers Werner's disastrous turn as majority owner of the San Diego Padres in the early 1990s--Rosanne's national anthem was only one of the many blunders that happened on his watch--I would not find it hard to imagine Werner as a huge ego who overestimates his baseball smarts and a massive thorn in Epstein's side, at least on the Lucchino scale. (2) Off the field, a Boston woman was apparently stalking Epstein and his young family ( link) during his tenure with the Red Sox; she even followed him to Chicago, where she was arrested when she showed up at Epstein's house in 2012. Bizarre and downright frightening stuff like this easily could have convinced Epstein and his wife that they needed to get the hell out of the fishbowl, no matter how John Henry managed to sweeten his deal here.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 13, 2018 17:44:08 GMT -5
Agree that Theo Epstein is #1 in terms of the best GM the Sox have had, and with the sentiment that he should have been given the autonomy, title and money to stay here indefinitely well before 2011. Two wild cards: (1) I wonder if, in addition to Lucchino, Epstein was chafing at the input of Tom Werner, a much larger fish in the Sox' ownership pond than Lucky Larry, albeit with a smaller profile. But with his show-biz cred and his (apparent) oversight of NESN, Werner easily could have been pressing hard for marquee players to be signed to reverse the decline in the Sox' TV rankings ca. 2009-10. In addition, as a former Southern Californian who remembers Werner's disastrous turn as majority owner of the San Diego Padres in the early 1990s--Rosanne's national anthem was only one of the many blunders that happened on his watch--I would not find it hard to imagine Werner as a huge ego who overestimates his baseball smarts and a massive thorn in Epstein's side, at least on the Lucchino scale. (2) Off the field, a Boston woman was apparently stalking Epstein and his young family ( link) during his tenure with the Red Sox; she even followed him to Chicago, where she was arrested when she showed up at Epstein's house in 2012. Bizarre and downright frightening stuff like this easily could have convinced Epstein and his wife that they needed to get the hell out of the fishbowl, no matter how John Henry managed to sweeten his deal here. I remember the Werner quote about the Sox not being "sexy" enough and the meetings about marketing the team that both Epstein and Francona hated, so I think your point is well taken. Werner later said it was a joke, but who really knows? Didn't realize the impact of the 2nd item you mentioned, but I do remember the story, and perhaps it did impact him more than I had thought.
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giltg
Veteran
When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
Posts: 274
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Post by giltg on Feb 13, 2018 22:55:37 GMT -5
The Louisville Colonels were a Red Sox minor league affiliate 1939-1955 and again in 1968-1972.
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giltg
Veteran
When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
Posts: 274
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Post by giltg on Feb 14, 2018 22:18:27 GMT -5
I was loking at the transactions that the Sox made in their World Series championship years and looking at what trade was made to push the Sox to the championship.In '04 it's the Garciaparra trade that involved the Sox,Twins, Cubs and Expos. In 2013 I go back to the previous year 2012 and I would say the Gonzalez Crawford Beckett and Punto trade along with the firing of Bobby Valentine freed up money to sign free agents like Mike Napoli and Shane Victorino. But the 2007 team I really can't point out one big move that brought the championship that season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 14, 2018 22:40:40 GMT -5
I was loking at the transactions that the Sox made in their World Series championship years and looking at what trade was made to push the Sox to the championship.In '04 it's the Garciaparra trade that involved the Sox,Twins, Cubs and Expos. In 2013 I go back to the previous year 2012 and I would say the Gonzalez Crawford Beckett and Punto trade along with the firing of Bobby Valentine freed up money to sign free agents like Mike Napoli and Shane Victorino. But the 2007 team I really can't point out one big move that brought the championship that season. Well it certainly wasn't the Gabbard and Murphy for Gagne trade. The Sox brought in three high priced free agents but Daisuke, Drew (for that year), and Lugo weren't all that great. Their greatest free agent prize was the modestly priced Hideki Okajima who gave up a HR to his first batter he faced and was unhittable after that up thru the all-star break. The 2007 team was a team that had the strong 2004 core of Ortiz, Manny, Schilling, Tek, Wakefield, and Timlin, but what made that team was contributions from their youngsters as Papelbon, Youkilis, Pedroia, later in the season Ellsbury and Lester, and even a surprise no-no from Buchholz, and even some help from Delcarmen. Their huge trade of 2006 finally paid off in 2007 as Beckett was Cy Young caliber (he didn't win) and Lowell had his career year. That in a way was perhaps a catalyst for 2007. The 2007 team was probably the most talented of the three recent Red Sox world champion teams.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 15, 2018 10:57:24 GMT -5
I was loking at the transactions that the Sox made in their World Series championship years and looking at what trade was made to push the Sox to the championship.In '04 it's the Garciaparra trade that involved the Sox,Twins, Cubs and Expos. In 2013 I go back to the previous year 2012 and I would say the Gonzalez Crawford Beckett and Punto trade along with the firing of Bobby Valentine freed up money to sign free agents like Mike Napoli and Shane Victorino. But the 2007 team I really can't point out one big move that brought the championship that season. Well it certainly wasn't the Gabbard and Murphy for Gagne trade. The Sox brought in three high priced free agents but Daisuke, Drew (for that year), and Lugo weren't all that great. Their greatest free agent prize was the modestly priced Hideki Okajima who gave up a HR to his first batter he faced and was unhittable after that up thru the all-star break. The 2007 team was a team that had the strong 2004 core of Ortiz, Manny, Schilling, Tek, Wakefield, and Timlin, but what made that team was contributions from their youngsters as Papelbon, Youkilis, Pedroia, later in the season Ellsbury and Lester, and even a surprise no-no from Buchholz, and even some help from Delcarmen. Their huge trade of 2006 finally paid off in 2007 as Beckett was Cy Young caliber (he didn't win) and Lowell had his career year. That in a way was perhaps a catalyst for 2007. The 2007 team was probably the most talented of the three recent Red Sox world champion teams. It's absolutely Beckett (Cy Young runner-up, ALCS MVP)-Lowell (5th in MVP voting, WS MVP)-Mota (flipped in the Coco Crisp deal) for Hanley, Anibal Sanchez, Jesus Delgado and Harvey Garcia. No question. Happened the previous offseason but Beckett and Lowell peaked in 2007 to become 2 of the team's 3 or 4 most important players.
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Post by jamesmcgillstatue on Feb 15, 2018 17:07:41 GMT -5
The Beckett-Lowell deal happened during the brief interregnum at the 2005 Winter Meetings. Epstein had resigned and Bill Lajoie and Larry Lucchino were the senior guys of the Red Sox delegation, with Ben Cherington and Jed Hoyer the co-general managers.
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