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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 29, 2018 4:08:22 GMT -5
Well, with the injury to Devers, Nunez is probably here to stay for the rest of the season.
The Sox are going to have to go over the 237 now to acquire talent. Trading Nunez might have kept you under to match salaries, but now you need him temporarily at 3rd base. Get it done Dombrowski, this is the season to do it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 29, 2018 4:18:32 GMT -5
I just don't get the 237 line being this huge thing. I get it stay under if you can, everything goes just right. Well its time to blow past the 237 line. That is better than paying crazy high prices for guys so teams eat money or worse not looking at all options because of money! The 197 line is huge, means a crap load of money. The 237 line is only moving back ten spots and a slightly higher tax rate for everything over the 237 line. Given we are on the lowest tax rate this year, there isn't a better time to go over. Lets throw around our financial might.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 29, 2018 7:28:09 GMT -5
I just don't get the 237 line being this huge thing. I get it stay under if you can, everything goes just right. Well its time to blow past the 237 line. That is better than paying crazy high prices for guys so teams eat money or worse not looking at all options because of money! The 197 line is huge, means a crap load of money. The 237 line is only moving back ten spots and a slightly higher tax rate for everything over the 237 line. Given we are on the lowest tax rate this year, there isn't a better time to go over. Lets throw around our financial might. I agree, they should have done this in the offseason especially since trying to stay under caused them to take their best player to arbitration.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 29, 2018 7:35:07 GMT -5
My guess would be because he’s arguably the best catcher in baseball. Guys a stud. He also is a free agent three full seasons before Devers, is six years older, and doesn’t have the ceiling of Devers. I don’t dispute that Realmuto is a stud, but Devers is going to be in another tier. Plus, I wouldn’t discount the effect that Sandy Leon has on the pitching staff. Realmuto is a better catcher, but Leon works incredibly well with our staff. Trading for a Realmuto means less games for Leon. Personally, I’d rather have Leon and Devers than Realmuto. I was just answering the question, not defending it. It’s going to be hard for Devers to be in another tier from Realmuto tho even if Devers hits his ceiling. In 77 games he’s always really been a 3.6 WAR player. That’s a pace for close to a 7 WAR season. Now there’s no way to know how a new catcher would affect the pitching staff at this point in the year. It’s certainly not an ideal time, but the offensive upgrade to Realmuto from Leon is massive. Like almost as big as you can get so you’re really going out on a limb to say it would affect the pitching that much. I wouldn’t do that trade but it’s hard to argue the 2018 Red Sox are not a lot better with Realmuto vs Devers. He’s also not a rental or even a free agent after next year so it’s not a short term move really either.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 29, 2018 9:33:18 GMT -5
He also is a free agent three full seasons before Devers, is six years older, and doesn’t have the ceiling of Devers. I don’t dispute that Realmuto is a stud, but Devers is going to be in another tier. Plus, I wouldn’t discount the effect that Sandy Leon has on the pitching staff. Realmuto is a better catcher, but Leon works incredibly well with our staff. Trading for a Realmuto means less games for Leon. Personally, I’d rather have Leon and Devers than Realmuto. I was just answering the question, not defending it. It’s going to be hard for Devers to be in another tier from Realmuto tho even if Devers hits his ceiling. In 77 games he’s always really been a 3.6 WAR player. That’s a pace for close to a 7 WAR season. Now there’s no way to know how a new catcher would affect the pitching staff at this point in the year. It’s certainly not an ideal time, but the offensive upgrade to Realmuto from Leon is massive. Like almost as big as you can get so you’re really going out on a limb to say it would affect the pitching that much. I wouldn’t do that trade but it’s hard to argue the 2018 Red Sox are not a lot better with Realmuto vs Devers. He’s also not a rental or even a free agent after next year so it’s not a short term move really either. My thoughts exactly. The question was about this year and what would you do to win now. I love Devers potential but Realmuto would give them a huge upgrade at a position of need for the next few years. As constructed this is definitely a win now team and the window begins closing fast after this year, and big time after 2019. You'll need a starter and a closer after this year. Come 2019 who knows if they can or want to extend Sale, Xander will need to be extended or they'll need a shortstop. After 2020 you're losing Porcello, and Mookie will go to market from all indications. There will be some significant money available but they'll have huge gaps in numerous positions. While I love the potential of Dalbec, Ockimey, Groome, Mata, Houck, and Chavis, realistically very little so say that any of them will be MLB average or better players, and less that says any will be ready by 2019/20 save maybe Chavis. I wish I could be more optimistic but the cupboard is developing at best and bare at worst - which means there'll likely be a couple or three lean years after 2019 while the competition (Yankees, Astros, Jays in particular) have loaded systems and current players who will be hitting their stride in those years. Meanwhile, this/next year's team is loaded. You have to go for it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 29, 2018 9:52:32 GMT -5
I was just answering the question, not defending it. It’s going to be hard for Devers to be in another tier from Realmuto tho even if Devers hits his ceiling. In 77 games he’s always really been a 3.6 WAR player. That’s a pace for close to a 7 WAR season. Now there’s no way to know how a new catcher would affect the pitching staff at this point in the year. It’s certainly not an ideal time, but the offensive upgrade to Realmuto from Leon is massive. Like almost as big as you can get so you’re really going out on a limb to say it would affect the pitching that much. I wouldn’t do that trade but it’s hard to argue the 2018 Red Sox are not a lot better with Realmuto vs Devers. He’s also not a rental or even a free agent after next year so it’s not a short term move really either. My thoughts exactly. The question was about this year and what would you do to win now. I love Devers potential but Realmuto would give them a huge upgrade at a position of need for the next few years. As constructed this is definitely a win now team and the window begins closing fast after this year, and big time after 2019. You'll need a starter and a closer after this year. Come 2019 who knows if they can or want to extend Sale, Xander will need to be extended or they'll need a shortstop. After 2020 you're losing Porcello, and Mookie will go to market from all indications. There will be some significant money available but they'll have huge gaps in numerous positions. While I love the potential of Dalbec, Ockimey, Groome, Mata, Houck, and Chavis, realistically very little so say that any of them will be MLB average or better players, and less that says any will be ready by 2019/20 save maybe Chavis. I wish I could be more optimistic but the cupboard is developing at best and bare at worst - which means there'll likely be a couple or three lean years after 2019 while the competition (Yankees, Astros, Jays in particular) have loaded systems and current players who will be hitting their stride in those years. Meanwhile, this/next year's team is loaded. You have to go for it. You make a great case as to why you don't trade Devers. You need his cheap salary and upside. That will allow you to pay other guys.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 29, 2018 10:13:59 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly. The question was about this year and what would you do to win now. I love Devers potential but Realmuto would give them a huge upgrade at a position of need for the next few years. As constructed this is definitely a win now team and the window begins closing fast after this year, and big time after 2019. You'll need a starter and a closer after this year. Come 2019 who knows if they can or want to extend Sale, Xander will need to be extended or they'll need a shortstop. After 2020 you're losing Porcello, and Mookie will go to market from all indications. There will be some significant money available but they'll have huge gaps in numerous positions. While I love the potential of Dalbec, Ockimey, Groome, Mata, Houck, and Chavis, realistically very little so say that any of them will be MLB average or better players, and less that says any will be ready by 2019/20 save maybe Chavis. I wish I could be more optimistic but the cupboard is developing at best and bare at worst - which means there'll likely be a couple or three lean years after 2019 while the competition (Yankees, Astros, Jays in particular) have loaded systems and current players who will be hitting their stride in those years. Meanwhile, this/next year's team is loaded. You have to go for it. You make a great case as to why you don't trade Devers. You need his cheap salary and upside. That will allow you to pay other guys. The difference will not be appreciable, especially if he plays to projections. His arb will start and he'll be getting double digit millions. Meanwhile, what you allude to is cobbling together a mostly free agent team to be "competitive" after 2020. Or you can win the next two years. I'll take the winning then the rebuild on the fly, thank you.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 29, 2018 10:41:00 GMT -5
Devers' seemed like his injury is a strain, not a big pull on his hamstring that's anything serious. He'll need some time off, but not very long (wouldn't surprise me if he came back after the 10 day DL stint is up). The Sox should be thinking second baseman here. You really don't have the room for Beltre when Devers comes back either. This team is already having a roster crunch. Give me Kinsler if you're going for a straight salary dump like UMass keeps pointing out. If you want to give up nothing, then he's your guy for a really big upgrade. I like Dozier, but the smart play with no farm system is probably Kinsler, especially if you're going to go for a reliever that costs a lot or a little via trade. Also, Dombrowski has a history with trading for Kinsler in the past. Dombrowski shown a history of sticking to guys he's familiar with. The Angels becoming likely sellers is definitely changing things.
Kinsler would add $3.1M to the AAV. He was hitting .179 / .249 / .263 (173 PA) on May 28, and is .286 / .346 / .520 (214 PA) since (which is .245 / .301 / .477 through July 11 and .422 / .490 / .667 since, in 51 PA). He's still a great fielder (+10 in 90 G).
He's way more desirable than Dozier. Were we waiting, hoping that the Angels would punt?
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Post by ortiz34 on Jul 29, 2018 10:48:06 GMT -5
@sportsinsights #MLB #Rangers - Adrian Beltre, Rest - is not in the starting lineup Sunday (7/29) at Houston
Mr Daniels, Dave Dombrowski on line one
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 29, 2018 10:48:52 GMT -5
If we're going over for Kinsler we might as well go way over for Beltre. Taking on Beltre's entire salary would be a big chip should the Sox also go after Keone Kela.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 29, 2018 11:40:57 GMT -5
If we're going over for Kinsler we might as well go way over for Beltre. Taking on Beltre's entire salary would be a big chip should the Sox also go after Keone Kela. You don't have to take on any of Beltre's salary (except as part of a Kela deal, which is a very interesting idea). They are stuck with it unless there's a club that he'd be willing to waive his no-trade to go to, and that's the Red Sox, and Boston, and the Carmine Hose. They come out ahead if they anything for him. At all.
I wish I were higher on Kela. Right now he doesn't seem like a future elite closer to me, just an adequate one. But I have to look into him more.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 29, 2018 11:51:40 GMT -5
If we're going over for Kinsler we might as well go way over for Beltre. Taking on Beltre's entire salary would be a big chip should the Sox also go after Keone Kela. You don't have to take on any of Beltre's salary (except as part of a Kela deal, which is a very interesting idea). They are stuck with it unless there's a club that he'd be willing to waive his no-trade to go to, and that's the Red Sox, and Boston, and the Carmine Hose. They come out ahead if they anything for him. At all. I wish I were higher on Kela. Right now he doesn't seem like a future elite closer to me, just an adequate one. But I have to look into him more.
For this year, he wouldn't be the closer anyways. For me, I'd add Hembree and Nunez to the package and if we're going over, eat Nunez' 2018 salary which would go a long way towards his $2m option should the Rangers decide to opt out. I'd then option Velazquez as you mentioned in another thread. All of our bullpen would be returning except Kimbrel and our minors are stacked with potential leverage arms and Feltman is a major 2019 wild card. A 70 grade fastball and slider is a 70 grade fastball and slider no matter where they are pitching. If a miracle happened and Pedroia returns, Holt has an option.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jul 29, 2018 11:53:53 GMT -5
Devers' seemed like his injury is a strain, not a big pull on his hamstring that's anything serious. He'll need some time off, but not very long (wouldn't surprise me if he came back after the 10 day DL stint is up). The Sox should be thinking second baseman here. You really don't have the room for Beltre when Devers comes back either. This team is already having a roster crunch. Give me Kinsler if you're going for a straight salary dump like UMass keeps pointing out. If you want to give up nothing, then he's your guy for a really big upgrade. I like Dozier, but the smart play with no farm system is probably Kinsler, especially if you're going to go for a reliever that costs a lot or a little via trade. Also, Dombrowski has a history with trading for Kinsler in the past. Dombrowski shown a history of sticking to guys he's familiar with. The Angels becoming likely sellers is definitely changing things. Kinsler would add $3.1M to the AAV. He was hitting .179 / .249 / .263 (173 PA) on May 28, and is .286 / .346 / .520 (214 PA) since (which is .245 / .301 / .477 through July 11 and .422 / .490 / .667 since, in 51 PA). He's still a great fielder (+10 in 90 G). He's way more desirable than Dozier. Were we waiting, hoping that the Angels would punt?
I like Kinsler as long as the cost is minimal (Angels likely willing to swallow cash to get more back as well). Only thing that gives me pause is that his average exit velo has dropped from 87 to 86.2 to 85.4 over the past 3 years. He currently ranks 226 out of 252 players (min 150 batted ball events). With his below average speed (26.6 ft/sec) he's unlikely to raise his .239 babip (.236 last year) up to league average rates as his skills have diminished. So his .239/.302/.406 triple slash line will likely continue rather than increase the way most predictive analytics are anticipating. Going forward he likely produces a similar offensive output to Nunez while playing above average defense at 2B. If he can still play some 3B it would make the decision easier (gives option of paying holt at 2B against RHP while Devers is out/rested)
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jul 29, 2018 12:05:50 GMT -5
The Red Sox currently have the 4th best fWAR in baseball and no trade will make their bullpen as good as the Yankees.
With Price and Eovoldi as options to move to the bullpen for the playoffs and become high-end relievers, and the organizational depth, I don't feel paying a premium for a reliever makes sense for an extra fraction of a win.
Kimbrel Price/Eovoldi Barnes Thornburg Hembree Brasier Workman Velazquez (Please no Kelly)
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 29, 2018 13:30:11 GMT -5
Apparently, they are already over the 237 mark unless they shed salary so I don’t think that matters at this point.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jul 29, 2018 15:37:00 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 29, 2018 17:41:45 GMT -5
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Post by mdenadai on Jul 29, 2018 18:00:35 GMT -5
I believe including Castillo is incorrect -- he was optioned off the 40-man roster with the explicit goal of having his $11m compensation not count against the limit.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 29, 2018 19:25:27 GMT -5
Devers' seemed like his injury is a strain, not a big pull on his hamstring that's anything serious. He'll need some time off, but not very long (wouldn't surprise me if he came back after the 10 day DL stint is up). The Sox should be thinking second baseman here. You really don't have the room for Beltre when Devers comes back either. This team is already having a roster crunch. Give me Kinsler if you're going for a straight salary dump like UMass keeps pointing out. If you want to give up nothing, then he's your guy for a really big upgrade. I like Dozier, but the smart play with no farm system is probably Kinsler, especially if you're going to go for a reliever that costs a lot or a little via trade. Also, Dombrowski has a history with trading for Kinsler in the past. Dombrowski shown a history of sticking to guys he's familiar with. The Angels becoming likely sellers is definitely changing things.
Kinsler would add $3.1M to the AAV. He was hitting .179 / .249 / .263 (173 PA) on May 28, and is .286 / .346 / .520 (214 PA) since (which is .245 / .301 / .477 through July 11 and .422 / .490 / .667 since, in 51 PA). He's still a great fielder (+10 in 90 G).
He's way more desirable than Dozier. Were we waiting, hoping that the Angels would punt?
He can still hit, apparently, and is definitely a superior fielder. You’d think the Angels would be ready to punt, their rotation in tatters and two teams solidly in front of them for WC2. I’d prefer Kinsler to Dozier based on defense; I guess it depends on whether one believes Dozier would truly benefit from Fenway. I’d also presume that Kinsler would come very cheaply if the Sox were willing to take on his salary in full. On a side note, and only marginally related, but if the Sox say, extend/sign Eovaldi and traded Porcello, what are the chances they could pry German Marquez from CO or Luiz Gohara from Atlanta? I doubt they could swing Jon Gray, but he’s another guy having an off year. I’d really like to see them manage to get a young starter to replace Porcello. Signing/extending Eovaldi would give them Sale, Rodriguez, Price, Porcello, Eovaldi. Moving Porcello for a quality prospect and maybe a second lesser piece might allow them to flip with a third piece (Chavis?) for a cost-controlled starter with upside who could slot into the 5 spot. Eovaldi looks like he’s on the verge of 2/3 territory, so that rotation could easily handle some growing pains in the 5 spot. They’re getting Hanley’s deal off the books this year ($22M), they would move Porcello’s salary ($20M), Pomeranz is gone ($8.5M), and Kimbrel ($13M) may be gone (hence the value of acquiring Kela or Yates). So they could be looking at being under the $197M mark if they play their cards right. A young cost-controlled starter and a Kimbrel replacement would put them in good position to extend Sale, rework Martinez’s deal, and extend Bogey. Then Panda’s deal comes off the next winter, at which point you’d hope one, maybe two of the Feltman/Buttrey/Lakins/Jerez/Gorst has established as at least 7th-inning or 8th inning types, and one of Shawaryn/Mata/Houck/Hernandez looks ready to step into the 5/6 spot. Basically, I think they need an upside starter who’s 2-3 years ahead of those guys for cost savings and certainty/continuity reasons. *Especially* if Eovaldi sticks around and is as good as he’s looked this year. It might extend this window a couple of years, until the Mookie deal comes due. If Pedroia can come back and be just a solid defensive player who’s worth 2 WAR, that’s a big improvement on what they’ve gotten this year. Or maybe Swihart fulfills his potential. They’ve been incredible despite some major holes, so there IS room for improvement still. An upside young starter behind Rodriguez means they’d have very few question marks (presuming they can lock up Mookie and Sale) for at least three years. That’s time to rebuild the farm and develop/trade for the next wave. And having Barnes/Hembree/Thornburg/Smith/Johnson (who’s looked good in the rotation)/Velasquez/Workman means they at least have a solid bullpen core. Kela or Yates would round that out nicely.
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Post by azblue on Jul 29, 2018 19:26:09 GMT -5
Castillo does not count.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 29, 2018 19:33:39 GMT -5
The link is to a spreadsheet that defaults to the payroll tab, not the tax tracker tab. That's why it includes Castillo.
The 235.5 current figure counts Poyner and Walden as full-year MLB salaries (as a proxy for the total days of guys going up and down) plus 15 other optioned players at an estimated $150,000 (which presumably includes a month of MLB minimum for guys who get called up in September). But we have 12 players currently on option and I don't think we've average more than that, plus, at the current rate, the guys on the PawSox shuttle look to fall about a month shy of two full years of active duty. So I think we're actually at about $235.
BTW, Poyner, Haley, Scott, and Cuevas were on the roster a total of 67 games and collectively pitched 17 times. They really don't need 13 pitchers, as they've never really used that many.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 29, 2018 20:47:53 GMT -5
Few other names of young guys to look at after Gray, Marquez, and Gohara: Amir Garrett, Cincy: He’s 26 and was a mess as a starter, but he’s got 2/3 stuff and his bullpen time has been productive. He’s been sitting mid-90s, rather than the 92 he was last year.
Jack Flaherty, St.Louis: probably past where the Sox can afford him, prospect-wise, and I doubt the Cards would trade him with Martinez injured and Wacha never really turning into the TOR guy they’d hoped. But doesn’t hurt to inquire; the Cards have a lot of holes and the organization has problems. Ownership might shake things up.
Zack Wheeler, Mets: Velo looks good, results are solid if not great, but probably works as a 3 and would be an excellent 4/5. Not really in the “young starter” group, but he’s still only 28 and while he doesn’t have extended control, he might be amenable to a reasonable contract extension. He has 1a/2 upside, too, and with all of the injuries he might be a year or two from figuring it out.
Jameson Taillon, Pit: Personal favorite, maybe the best combo of present skills and upside (I’d probably call Marquez second). Also probably out of the Sox’s current acquisition ability in terms of prospects, but maybe not. The Pirates are in that middle road purgatory and their prospects largely haven’t panned out. They’ve got a number of holes and the eternal market contraints. Taillon’s been a bright spot, and he’s evolving (still has the good velo), although he might not be the #1 Pittsburgh hoped, he’s probably a solid 2 at 26. He probably commands a Cole-like package (maybe a smidge more given control years), which the Sox could certainly do if they traded Porcello. A top-100 guy (Porcello trade), Chavis, someone like Shawaryn, and one of their relief arms like Jerez or Buttrey probably gets it done.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2018 21:17:01 GMT -5
I was looking at weei.com and I've read elsewhere that it's possible that Brad Ziegler winds up back with the Red Sox.
I like Ziegler but I kind of hope that's not the case. I know he's pitched very, very well after pitching very, very poorly, but I don't think he's an impact guy or necessarily better than what they have.
I like Kela but don't think it's worth spending the package it would cost to pry him away, and he does struggle against lefties. Also not interested in paying the price for Yates or even Stammen, who like Ziegler I like, but I don't think would move the needle much.
I like Hughes from Cincy but I don't think Cincy is inclined to deal their relievers.
I hope Herrera becomes available. At this point I hope he is the guy the Sox target if Washington decides to sell. Otherwise Watson if SF decides to sell.
I wish they had simply gone after Soria, but I still don't know if they're really over the luxury tax limit. Evan Drellich reports that they are and I've seen other source say they're at 235 million, so I don't know what's right.
I'd love Beltre at 3b or Kinsler at 2b, which is more probable because they're going to need a 2b more than they need a 3b.
I also hope Leon's slump opens up more playing time for Swihart who is looking better with more regular ABs.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 29, 2018 22:52:20 GMT -5
The link is to a spreadsheet that defaults to the payroll tab, not the tax tracker tab. That's why it includes Castillo.
The 235.5 current figure counts Poyner and Walden as full-year MLB salaries (as a proxy for the total days of guys going up and down) plus 15 other optioned players at an estimated $150,000 (which presumably includes a month of MLB minimum for guys who get called up in September). But we have 12 players currently on option and I don't think we've average more than that, plus, at the current rate, the guys on the PawSox shuttle look to fall about a month shy of two full years of active duty. So I think we're actually at about $235.
BTW, Poyner, Haley, Scott, and Cuevas were on the roster a total of 67 games and collectively pitched 17 times. They really don't need 13 pitchers, as they've never really used that many.
They are at 238.
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Post by orion09 on Jul 29, 2018 23:33:25 GMT -5
I was looking at weei.com and I've read elsewhere that it's possible that Brad Ziegler winds up back with the Red Sox. I like Ziegler but I kind of hope that's not the case. I know he's pitched very, very well after pitching very, very poorly, but I don't think he's an impact guy or necessarily better than what they have. I like Kela but don't think it's worth spending the package it would cost to pry him away, and he does struggle against lefties. Also not interested in paying the price for Yates or even Stammen, who like Ziegler I like, but I don't think would move the needle much. I like Hughes from Cincy but I don't think Cincy is inclined to deal their relievers. I hope Herrera becomes available. At this point I hope he is the guy the Sox target if Washington decides to sell. Otherwise Watson if SF decides to sell. I wish they had simply gone after Soria, but I still don't know if they're really over the luxury tax limit. Evan Drellich reports that they are and I've seen other source say they're at 235 million, so I don't know what's right. I'd love Beltre at 3b or Kinsler at 2b, which is more probable because they're going to need a 2b more than they need a 3b. I also hope Leon's slump opens up more playing time for Swihart who is looking better with more regular ABs. Seems to me Ziegler's upside is that of a Barnes-level 8th inning guy, or maybe a bit below. His xwOBA has been hovering around .275 over the last two months - roughly the same as Barnes's 2018 season (though Barnes has averaged about .255 since a bad April). To your earlier points in the thread, Champs, it's hard to feel comfortable without another 8th inning option going forward, but I think some of that is the potential volatility of Kelly, Thornburg, Barnes etc. If you add another guy who's not a step up, necessarily, but has a similar ceiling, you increase your odds that one or more of them is red-hot come October. His acquisition cost would be much lower than Yates, Kela, and Romo, and most everyone else is traded already (unless, like you say, WAS or SF decide to sell). Not to mention, Ziegler's delivery is so tough on righties, and his GB% so high, he looks like a decent weapon against HOU and NYY. The only question is whose roster spot he'd take until September. Not saying it's a perfect fit, but I think he has upside as a lower-cost-tier acquisition.
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