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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 11:07:23 GMT -5
This isn't about race pal, watch Dozier play. Pedro Martinez was one of the biggest gamers alive, and he's Dominican. Just to take a step back: you just called a white guy a gamer; said a Dominican guy who plays hard, plays everyday, and is having a better season is not; and then pointed to the pitcher with the best peak of the last 60 years to prove your point wasn't racially charged? Based on your long posting hisotry I know you aren't a racist. But you need to understand why your word choice is bad and why the underlying preconceptions that led you to making that word choice are used to diminish the accomplishments and effort of foreign-born and minority players while propping up those of white dudes and why people find that hard to take. So your word choice was a bad one and I hope you will understand why and reflect on that rather than reflexively defend it. If there's such thing as a "gamer," Castro is every bit as much of one as Dozier is. Taking two steps back, I HAVE NEVER SAID DOZIER HAS PLAYED BETTER THIS YEAR. I don't see race. I see ballplayers and effort and talent. Pedro Martinez isn't a gamer sir because he had a peak year in 1999. Pedro Martinez is a gamer because he pitched in one of the best playoff games in Sox history in Game 5 of the 1999 ALDS against the Indians on a injury that he said could have ended his career. He pitched backwards with down velocity and beat one of the most impressive lineups of all time in that game. He then went on to beat Rodger Clemens (a white guy) convincingly in the only win for the Sox in the ALCS. Castro is a enigma who has been dumped by two teams. None of this is about race.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jul 30, 2018 11:13:29 GMT -5
The Cardinals are shopping Norris (clubhouse lawyer and recent bullying/hazing incidents) and the Jays are shopping Osuna (charged with domestic violence with next hearing date of August 1). While I think the Red Sox could use another arm in the bullpen, I would hope they take a hard pass on both of these guys who have questions about their character.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 30, 2018 11:14:43 GMT -5
Can you support this with any data beyond the fact that he's a short white guy? This isn't about race pal, watch Dozier play. Pedro Martinez was one of the biggest gamers alive, and he's Dominican. That wasn't the question. Here I'll help. Career wRC+: Low leverage: 115 Medium leverage: 104 High leverage: 98 2018 wRC+: Low leverage: 126 Medium leverage: 73 High leverage: 29
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 11:20:51 GMT -5
This isn't about race pal, watch Dozier play. Pedro Martinez was one of the biggest gamers alive, and he's Dominican. That wasn't the question. Here I'll help. Career wRC+: Low leverage: 115 Medium leverage: 104 High leverage: 98 2018 wRC+: Low leverage: 126 Medium leverage: 73 High leverage: 29 If he is so valuable, then why were the Yankees so willing to give him away? The Yankees could have stayed under the CBT if they kept Castro.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 30, 2018 11:25:07 GMT -5
That wasn't the question. Here I'll help. Career wRC+: Low leverage: 115 Medium leverage: 104 High leverage: 98 2018 wRC+: Low leverage: 126 Medium leverage: 73 High leverage: 29 If he is so valuable, then why were the Yankees so willing to give him away? The Yankees could have stayed under the CBT if they kept Castro. That was Dozier. As far as Castro goes, I imagine Miami wanted him because he's Cuban.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 30, 2018 11:26:41 GMT -5
That wasn't the question. Here I'll help. Career wRC+: Low leverage: 115 Medium leverage: 104 High leverage: 98 2018 wRC+: Low leverage: 126 Medium leverage: 73 High leverage: 29 If he is so valuable, then why were the Yankees so willing to give him away? The Yankees could have stayed under the CBT if they kept Castro. He was maybe the most valuable piece in the Stanton trade and this guy named Torres. Have you ever heard of him?
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 30, 2018 11:27:05 GMT -5
Just to take a step back: you just called a white guy a gamer; said a Dominican guy who plays hard, plays everyday, and is having a better season is not; and then pointed to the pitcher with the best peak of the last 60 years to prove your point wasn't racially charged? Based on your long posting hisotry I know you aren't a racist. But you need to understand why your word choice is bad and why the underlying preconceptions that led you to making that word choice are used to diminish the accomplishments and effort of foreign-born and minority players while propping up those of white dudes and why people find that hard to take. So your word choice was a bad one and I hope you will understand why and reflect on that rather than reflexively defend it. If there's such thing as a "gamer," Castro is every bit as much of one as Dozier is. Taking two steps back, I HAVE NEVER SAID DOZIER HAS PLAYED BETTER THIS YEAR. I don't see race. I see ballplayers and effort and talent. Pedro Martinez isn't a gamer sir because he had a peak year in 1999. Pedro Martinez is a gamer because he pitched in one of the best playoff games in Sox history in Game 5 of the 1999 ALDS against the Indians on a injury that he said could have ended his career. He pitched backwards with down velocity and beat one of the most impressive lineups of all time in that game. He then went on to beat Rodger Clemens (a white guy) convincingly in the only win for the Sox in the ALCS. Castro is a enigma who has been dumped by two teams. None of this is about race. But you're falling into the casual, lazy tropes. The White Fellow TM tries harder and is gritty. The Dominican Fellow TM is enigmatic and lazy and doesn't get the most out of his talent. The Legend TM, who is no longer active, transcends those labels. It may be true in the cases of specific individuals (Castro works his tail off, for what it's worth, so I think you're off here), but your use of racially-charged language to label them isn't cool and you got called out on it. I legitimately think you didn't know that "gamer" is/was racially-charged because you've been posting for awhile and I know you aren't a racist. That's why I'm letting you know. Sometimes we just don't realize the language that we use is bad. I derisively referred to someone as "Cadillac-ing" a couple years ago without knowing the background. It happens. Thinking Dozier is a better fit than Castro is fine, though based on age and recent performance I disagree that he's a better player.
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Post by prangerx on Jul 30, 2018 11:27:45 GMT -5
It sounds like the Orioles are going to be much more aggressive on the international front going forward. The would be foolish not to be with how far in the hole their org is. It is also could be the product of the Angelos sons getting more power.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 11:28:44 GMT -5
If he is so valuable, then why were the Yankees so willing to give him away? The Yankees could have stayed under the CBT if they kept Castro. That was Dozier. I want Dozier because of his pull rate. I would be willing to bet that his numbers inflate in this ballpark. He also is a great clubhouse guy and is solid defensively at least. He's also homered in the Twins playoff game the last what 10 years FWIW.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 30, 2018 11:33:27 GMT -5
I want Dozier because of his pull rate. I would be willing to bet that his numbers inflate in this ballpark. He also is a great clubhouse guy and is solid defensively at least. He's also homered in the Twins playoff game the last what 10 years FWIW. When you said, I thought I'd post his stats in different leverages because he hits worse in high leverage than in low leverage. If you want to ignore that and focus on one home run in one playoff game, go ahead. I want Dozier as well, but I don't make dumb arguments for why I want him. I want him because he's much better than Nunez and that's it.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 11:35:57 GMT -5
Taking two steps back, I HAVE NEVER SAID DOZIER HAS PLAYED BETTER THIS YEAR. I don't see race. I see ballplayers and effort and talent. Pedro Martinez isn't a gamer sir because he had a peak year in 1999. Pedro Martinez is a gamer because he pitched in one of the best playoff games in Sox history in Game 5 of the 1999 ALDS against the Indians on a injury that he said could have ended his career. He pitched backwards with down velocity and beat one of the most impressive lineups of all time in that game. He then went on to beat Rodger Clemens (a white guy) convincingly in the only win for the Sox in the ALCS. Castro is a enigma who has been dumped by two teams. None of this is about race. But you're falling into the casual, lazy tropes. The White Fellow TM tries harder and is gritty. The Dominican Fellow TM is enigmatic and lazy and doesn't get the most out of his talent. The Legend TM, who is no longer active, transcends those labels. It may be true in the cases of these specific individuals, but your use of racially-charged language to label them isn't cool and you got called out on it. I legitimately think you didn't know that "gamer" is/was racially-charged because you've been posting for awhile and I know you aren't a racist. That's why I'm letting you know. Sometimes we just don't realize the language that we use is bad. I derisively referred to someone as "Cadillac-ing" a couple years ago without knowing the background. It happens. Thinking Dozier is a better fit than Castro is fine, though based on age and recent performance I disagree that he's a better player. There is just no reason to call out anybody because they call one player a enigma and one a gamer. If Dozier was black, and Castro was white, I would still say the same about each players. There's just no need to call people out on that, I think. I'm not stereotyping race. I'm stereotyping their styles of play.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 11:36:48 GMT -5
If he is so valuable, then why were the Yankees so willing to give him away? The Yankees could have stayed under the CBT if they kept Castro. He was maybe the most valuable piece in the Stanton trade and this guy named Torres. Have you ever heard of him? Yes so valuable that no other team is going to get Castro for more than a song.
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Post by bluechip on Jul 30, 2018 12:02:30 GMT -5
Who would I rather have on the field in 2018, Dozier or Castro? Castro. Is Castro worth 12 million (11m+ 1m buyout) dollars next year? Yeah, probably.
Will there be better players available next year making less money? Yeah, probably.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 30, 2018 12:06:12 GMT -5
Just FYI this is the exact thing racists most love to say to prove they're not racist.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 12:17:59 GMT -5
Just FYI this is the exact thing racists most love to say to prove they're not racist. My hero is Dominican. My niece is half black. Pedrofanforever. I only used that statement in the context of baseball. Let's move on from the race crap. It's borderline neanderthal like that we are bringing this topic into daylight.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 30, 2018 12:29:20 GMT -5
But you're falling into the casual, lazy tropes. The White Fellow TM tries harder and is gritty. The Dominican Fellow TM is enigmatic and lazy and doesn't get the most out of his talent. The Legend TM, who is no longer active, transcends those labels. It may be true in the cases of specific individuals (Castro works his tail off, for what it's worth, so I think you're off here), but your use of racially-charged language to label them isn't cool and you got called out on it. I legitimately think you didn't know that "gamer" is/was racially-charged because you've been posting for awhile and I know you aren't a racist. That's why I'm letting you know. Sometimes we just don't realize the language that we use is bad. I derisively referred to someone as "Cadillac-ing" a couple years ago without knowing the background. It happens. Thinking Dozier is a better fit than Castro is fine, though based on age and recent performance I disagree that he's a better player. To be fair, he isn't talking about latin players generically. He's talking about Starlin Castro, you know this dude who looks like a great guy. I don't believe that the concept that Castro probably is an asshole is somehow foreign to anyone. Also, Brian Dozier is known as a hustle guy. By people that cover the Twins. They probably know more about him and his playing style than you or me. So yeah, he could be a gamer.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 4,126
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Post by jimoh on Jul 30, 2018 12:29:29 GMT -5
One can google this phrase on the interwebs and do some interesting reading, which might make you less likely to use it.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 12:36:58 GMT -5
But you're falling into the casual, lazy tropes. The White Fellow TM tries harder and is gritty. The Dominican Fellow TM is enigmatic and lazy and doesn't get the most out of his talent. The Legend TM, who is no longer active, transcends those labels. It may be true in the cases of specific individuals (Castro works his tail off, for what it's worth, so I think you're off here), but your use of racially-charged language to label them isn't cool and you got called out on it. I legitimately think you didn't know that "gamer" is/was racially-charged because you've been posting for awhile and I know you aren't a racist. That's why I'm letting you know. Sometimes we just don't realize the language that we use is bad. I derisively referred to someone as "Cadillac-ing" a couple years ago without knowing the background. It happens. Thinking Dozier is a better fit than Castro is fine, though based on age and recent performance I disagree that he's a better player. To be fair, he isn't talking about latin players generically. He's talking about Starlin Castro, you know this dude who looks like a great guy. I don't believe that the concept that Castro probably is an asshole is somehow foreign to anyone. Also, Brian Dozier is known as a hustle guy. By people that cover the Twins. They probably know more about him and his playing style than you or me. So yeah, he could be a gamer. Thanks Don. This was exactly the point I was making, although I forgot about Castro's supposed charges under the law. I didn't know about that stuff.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 30, 2018 12:44:41 GMT -5
Thanks Don. This was exactly the point I was making. I got you and I agree with you. I don't want Castro either.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 30, 2018 12:48:52 GMT -5
Just FYI this is the exact thing racists most love to say to prove they're not racist. My hero is Dominican. My niece is half black. Pedrofanforever. This is, uhh... not helping your case.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 30, 2018 12:51:02 GMT -5
The Jays are trying to trade Osuna according to Rosenthal. Osuna comes back from a domestic assault suspension. August 5th Hard pass.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Jul 30, 2018 12:52:01 GMT -5
Let's stick to trade talk. Thanks.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 30, 2018 12:52:21 GMT -5
Alright this is starting to get ridiculous. I’m not a mod so I’m not going to say move on but I’m about to stop following the trade deadline thread the day before because of both sides of this “discussion”. Just saying
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 12:53:54 GMT -5
My black friend? That's family that I buy presents for and adore. This whole conversation is frankly stupid. I'm done talking about it.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 30, 2018 13:02:05 GMT -5
The Jays are trying to trade Osuna according to Rosenthal. Osuna comes back from a domestic assault suspension. August 5th Hard pass. Yeah polarising player and arguably the most talented reliever out there, but yeah you just can't touch that with a ten foot pole.
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