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Keith Law says MiLB teams should pay players
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 24, 2018 15:13:18 GMT -5
There are billions of dollars to be split up in baseball. You are choosing who you want to keep the money. The billionaires. So yeah, you're doing it. People don't show up to be entertained by the owners. The major league also needs the minor leagues to survive and produce literally all of the talent for the majors. There are zero reasons not to pay minor league players more money other than the greedy owners want to keep all of their money while ripping off taxpayers at every single opportunity. Why anyone would have this opinion is ridiculous to me. You obviously didn't read the article. Did you see the part where the players are forced to pay for their own food in the clubhouse and sometimes, there isn't enough for them to eat because the pitchers sneak into the locker room before batting practice is over and take an extra sandwich? You think that's fair also? These clubhouse fees take a huge chunk of their tiny paycheck. Why can't the damn teams feed their players?!! Why can't they feed them healthy organic food designed for athletes to perform at peak performance instead of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches? It's just plain stupid to point to whatever suffering you've gone through in life and wish that for other people. What kind of jerk are you? And there is literally no reason for that suffering to exist because of all the money in baseball. My suffering? I wouldn't say that at all, its just life my friend. I don't wish suffering on anyone, but as I've gotten older I've learned that changes have massive effects. Something you just don't want to look at or try to understand. For certain people to get more, others get less. Its not fair, but its they way our economy works. The whole economy is built off of profits, without large profits it all falls a part. Those profits allow companies to grow. Economics 101 grow or die. A bunch of lower paying jobs are better than a ton fewer better paying jobs. I'm not a jerk at all, I just realize facts about our economy that you can't. Look at auto workers, decades of strong unions got them unreal pay and benefits. The end result was an automated assembly line where robots took over jobs because they were cheaper. You just don't get Baseball econmics, because you refuse to look at facts. The simple fact that teams control things like TV revenue and its not pooled makes Baseball different than Football and Basketball. Not all teams are making money like the Red Sox and Yankees. Teams like the Marlins lost 10's of millions last year. Nevermind not all owners are Billionaires. Frank McCourt wasn't close to a billionaire when he owned the Dodgers, he actually had very little money and it was amazing how he even was able to purchase the team. Not all teams can afford extra. Go watch the money ball movie. The A's couldn't afford to give their players free soda and sports drinks. A few million dollars to them was the difference between making money and losing money. So you follow up claims that they are worse off than slaves, living in roach invested housing with an article acting like they all have mortgages and sometimes someone steals extra food leaving none for someone else? That is your proof they are worse off than slaves? What kind of jerk are you? Talk about just making crap up on a totally extreme level to make things seem worse than it is. As I've said over the years many times I fully support teams paying for all food and housing. $120 a week for food isn't eating peanut butter and Jelly. You can eat a very good for that amount of money. It won't be crazy easy being on the road a ton, but it can be done. I've seem families spend that much for a week. What can't be done, is what the players really want. To live it up and go out to eat after every game. You ever ask yourself why they are demanding more money and using food as a reason why they deserve it, rather than demanding food? Just think about that for a second, if food was the real issue. It isn't. It's everything else. They want money to buy other things. They don't spend money on food so they can go out and have fun at places like bars. These are young adults just out of College. I can't afford food, but I have the newest Iphone type crap. Do I believe the sandwich story? Yes I do, but I don't believe that is the norm either. Do I believe some have mortgages? Yes I do, but I don't believe most if any are the low bonus guys we are talking about. That article is taking things that are true, but not common and acting like that applies to all minor league players. I work at a Bank post 2008 it's crazy hard to get a mortgage. I'm on the council that reshaped the rules to make sure another 2008 didn't happen. Government backed loans like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and FHA just aren't the same. If minor league baseball players have mortgages they make enough to support the payments. 31% of there gross income must cover mortgage payment, taxes, and mortgage insurance. No more allowing that number to be around 40%, or even higher like was the case before 2008. Does Baseball need the minor leagues? Yes that is 100% true. Yet that isn't the question we are asking is it? Does the minor leagues need all of these lower bonus players is the real question isn't it? That answer is 100% no they don't. The minor leagues would be just fine if you greatly reduced the amount of teams, say only three per team. That's what you seem to be overlooking or just ignoring because it doesn't fit your narrative. Teams have have all these teams because the labor costs are low. The benefit of bringing in a ton of crappy players hoping you find that 1% guy that will make the majors is worth it. Increase costs and teams will bring in less players. You simply keep overlooking that increasing wages has negative effects. Is it fair? Not at all, but it is reality. You keep acting like owners wanting to make profits and pay employees as little as possible is this evil thing. It's the backbone of our economic system. This I'm siding with Billionaires talk, is really you just don't have a clue how our economy works. Per Adam Smith, a guy some people call the father of our economic system minor league Baseball players aren't acting in there own best interests. It's not that the system is broken, it's just a bunch of players chasing a dream. In our system if you don't act in your own best interests you have no one to blame but yourself! Yet you want to blame the owners, like its their responsibility to make everything right. Guys that will admit that they wouldn't change a thing after not making it. They did it because they loved hearing there names playing in front of large crowds. It was an experience for most of these guys, not a career. What you really want is a new economic system where everything is fair. Good luck on that!
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 24, 2018 15:14:51 GMT -5
"Life's not fair, might as well stiff our employees and also kill the rainforest" is a hell of a take. Both of these things happen every single day. It's really not a take at all.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Sept 24, 2018 15:37:52 GMT -5
@ umassgrad2005 I also worked in the banking industry throughout most of the 80's and 90's. I did a fair amount of traveling, didn't get paid directly, but at that level of salary and bonus it was irrelevant. I was basically on call for emergencies (one time I had to leave home at midnight and drive into Manhattan to take over the trading of a new issue security in Hong Kong because the Tokyo head office hadn't done anything like that before and was blowing the deal for the highest of profile international institutions. It's was part of the job. The same of MilB players, the travel is part of the job, but their salary doesn't compensate them for it like mine did and yours does. Life happens, now I spend a few hours a week working at an hourly wage for one of the biggest employers in the country to get out of the house and fund some luxuries for us. I get to be with people who need that job (often with one or even two others)just to make ends meet. Meanwhile, the company got a multibillion dollar tax break, paid about an eighth of it one one time "bonus" even though it will get the same break again this year and for the foreseeable future instead of just increasing the hourly pay rate. So, no sympathy for greed billionaires whose "hard work" consists of schmoozing one another and lobby Congress for the next tax give away at the cost of the average citizen's health and well being. Somehow, many other advanced countries (and especially the Nordic ones) have manages to create systems that provide better lives for their citizens while still enable those who care to, strive hard and catch some breaks to get very wealthy. No one is advocating that MiLB should live in the lap of luxury, but Baseball could do a lot better by those players without the danger of sending any owners to the poorhouse.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 24, 2018 16:12:32 GMT -5
There are billions of dollars to be split up in baseball. You are choosing who you want to keep the money. The billionaires. So yeah, you're doing it. People don't show up to be entertained by the owners. The major league also needs the minor leagues to survive and produce literally all of the talent for the majors. There are zero reasons not to pay minor league players more money other than the greedy owners want to keep all of their money while ripping off taxpayers at every single opportunity. Why anyone would have this opinion is ridiculous to me. You obviously didn't read the article. Did you see the part where the players are forced to pay for their own food in the clubhouse and sometimes, there isn't enough for them to eat because the pitchers sneak into the locker room before batting practice is over and take an extra sandwich? You think that's fair also? These clubhouse fees take a huge chunk of their tiny paycheck. Why can't the damn teams feed their players?!! Why can't they feed them healthy organic food designed for athletes to perform at peak performance instead of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches? It's just plain stupid to point to whatever suffering you've gone through in life and wish that for other people. What kind of jerk are you? And there is literally no reason for that suffering to exist because of all the money in baseball. My suffering? I wouldn't say that at all, its just life my friend. I don't wish suffering on anyone, but as I've gotten older I've learned that changes have massive effects. Something you just don't want to look at or try to understand. For certain people to get more, others get less. Its not fair, but its they way our economy works. The whole economy is built off of profits, without large profits it all falls a part. Those profits allow companies to grow. Economics 101 grow or die. A bunch of lower paying jobs are better than a ton fewer better paying jobs. I'm not a jerk at all, I just realize facts about our economy that you can't. Look at auto workers, decades of strong unions got them unreal pay and benefits. The end result was an automated assembly line where robots took over jobs because they were cheaper. You just don't get Baseball econmics, because you refuse to look at facts. The simple fact that teams control things like TV revenue and its not pooled makes Baseball different than Football and Basketball. Not all teams are making money like the Red Sox and Yankees. Teams like the Marlins lost 10's of millions last year. Nevermind not all owners are Billionaires. Frank McCourt wasn't close to a billionaire when he owned the Dodgers, he actually had very little money and it was amazing how he even was able to purchase the team. I really have to get out of this because I've had this argument 100 times and I'm just sick of it. Two points and then I'm done. I certainly understand that for some people to get more, others get less. Those others that get less would be the owners. And they'd be getting a minuscule amount less for them. Second point is that the Marlins may look like they're losing 10s of millions last year, but how much did Loria make on the sale? Why did the Jeter group pay so much for the Marlins if it's just hopeless for them to make money? Is Loria struggling to find food and signing up for $50 speaking gigs on his 6 days off in 6 months? Are these billionaires dumb? Are they losing all their money and going broke owning baseball teams? Auto workers do not compare. They are not going to replace baseball players with machines and auto workers do not possess a unique skill that cannot be taught to anyone looking for a job in the industry. Baseball players do. I don't even know why that I have to argue that baseball players should be making at least minimum wage including all of the time they spend practicing and training. But owners don't want to pay minimum wage because they're cheap and screwing people over by lobbying congress is how they get rich. In fact, the minor league lawsuit was thrown out IIRC because of new lobbying that extended their anti-trust exemption. So what they are doing likely used to be against the law and now it isn't. Where's my next new stadium going to be built for me for free?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 24, 2018 22:56:52 GMT -5
@ umassgrad2005 I also worked in the banking industry throughout most of the 80's and 90's. I did a fair amount of traveling, didn't get paid directly, but at that level of salary and bonus it was irrelevant. I was basically on call for emergencies (one time I had to leave home at midnight and drive into Manhattan to take over the trading of a new issue security in Hong Kong because the Tokyo head office hadn't done anything like that before and was blowing the deal for the highest of profile international institutions. It's was part of the job. The same of MilB players, the travel is part of the job, but their salary doesn't compensate them for it like mine did and yours does. Life happens, now I spend a few hours a week working at an hourly wage for one of the biggest employers in the country to get out of the house and fund some luxuries for us. I get to be with people who need that job (often with one or even two others)just to make ends meet. Meanwhile, the company got a multibillion dollar tax break, paid about an eighth of it one one time "bonus" even though it will get the same break again this year and for the foreseeable future instead of just increasing the hourly pay rate. So, no sympathy for greed billionaires whose "hard work" consists of schmoozing one another and lobby Congress for the next tax give away at the cost of the average citizen's health and well being. Somehow, many other advanced countries (and especially the Nordic ones) have manages to create systems that provide better lives for their citizens while still enable those who care to, strive hard and catch some breaks to get very wealthy. No one is advocating that MiLB should live in the lap of luxury, but Baseball could do a lot better by those players without the danger of sending any owners to the poorhouse. I fully support them doing better. It's just how do you define doing better? My ideas seem to be a drop in the bucket compared to what other think though.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Sept 25, 2018 9:11:21 GMT -5
I think at least $2500 month (the equivalent of a $15 minimum wage based on a 2000 hour year) is the least they could do given that these guys work for them more than 40 hours a week. Add to that provide a high quality meal every day which would teach them better nutrition and compensate them for the extra hours. Drop in the bucket for the owners, maybe marginal for the bigger bonus babies, but very significant for the org guys and dark horses.
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Post by swingingbunt on Sept 25, 2018 13:47:53 GMT -5
I think at least $2500 month (the equivalent of a $15 minimum wage based on a 2000 hour year) is the least they could do given that these guys work for them more than 40 hours a week. Add to that provide a high quality meal every day which would teach them better nutrition and compensate them for the extra hours. Drop in the bucket for the owners, maybe marginal for the bigger bonus babies, but very significant for the org guys and dark horses. And that's all people are asking. I know it's fun to put entire world views into each little topic, but giving minor leaguers enough money to not struggle to support themselves isn't going to destroy capitalism, cause the billionaires to move to another country, make Kiosks replace people's jobs, bring down the game of baseball or whatever other ridiculous arguments that have been made in this thread. It would absolutely improve the product on the field, and each organization would pay about the cost of a LOOGY each year.
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Post by swingingbunt on Sept 25, 2018 15:56:33 GMT -5
Second point is that the Marlins may look like they're losing 10s of millions last year, but how much did Loria make on the sale? Why did the Jeter group pay so much for the Marlins if it's just hopeless for them to make money? Is Loria struggling to find food and signing up for $50 speaking gigs on his 6 days off in 6 months? Are these billionaires dumb? Are they losing all their money and going broke owning baseball teams? One more thing since this question is unanswered and it at least has some semblance of a counterargument besides "screw rich people". Loria, according to his accountants, lost $140 million in the sale of the Marlins. @suttacbsmiami pbs.twimg.com/media/DVDJkHAVAAAC7cK.jpgBut don't let numbers get in the way of a good story. Numbers from Loria himself. I'm sure he also has a bridge to sell you at a really good price too. Here's the truth behind those numbers.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 25, 2018 16:25:15 GMT -5
So no matter how good you are, if you play Baseball you deserve well above average pay? Just because Billionaires run the sport, just like they do with the whole economy. That just makes zero sense. It based fully on emotional feelings and not rooted in reality. You could do that for so many jobs, yet we should feel for like 8,000 young adults being paid to workout and play a game? Many already got a lot of money and a bunch will go on to make Millions.
You know who I feel for? Guys like Mata and Hernandez who are greatly outperforming the money they got. I want to see them get more. Make this performanced based and I can get on board. Not everyone deserves x no matter what they do. Those are the only two guys in our top 20 to not get over a $100,000 bonus, most got way more than that. Our top guys are who fans go to see, not no name filler players. They generate the minor league revenue. Back in the day I would drive up to Portland when that team had Ramirez, Lester, Sanchez, and Papelbon. It was worth the drive to watch Ramirez hit and Lester pitch. Didn't hurt that it was Keith Foulke bobble head day.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 25, 2018 16:32:35 GMT -5
A lot of Marlins owners have lost money. Its why owner after owner keep having firesales. Jeter didn't gut that team because Loria was lying about losing money.
I don't for a second think he lost money on the sale of the team though. He's just doing that because he owes the city of Miami a percentage of the profits due to the new Stadium, so he claims there aren't any. All while having 500 million in a bank account. From what I've read though the City was stupid and allowed him to claim a ton of crap as write offs and expenses. That will allow him to not give them much if anything from the sale. They guy certainly isn't stupid.
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Post by jmei on Sept 25, 2018 16:35:54 GMT -5
I think at least $2500 month (the equivalent of a $15 minimum wage based on a 2000 hour year) is the least they could do given that these guys work for them more than 40 hours a week. Add to that provide a high quality meal every day which would teach them better nutrition and compensate them for the extra hours. Drop in the bucket for the owners, maybe marginal for the bigger bonus babies, but very significant for the org guys and dark horses. The average US citizen age 20-24 makes $27,456 per year, or about $2,288 per month. smartasset.com/retirement/the-average-salary-by-ageSo, you want the salary of the bottom 5-10% of the players in minor league ball who do not contribute to the product of major league baseball and probably never will to have a monthly salary that exceeds the national average by nearly 10%? For basically nothing? This argument is grossly misleading because most 20-24 year olds are part-time workers.
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Post by swingingbunt on Sept 25, 2018 16:46:46 GMT -5
Am I missing something? This article appears to be nothing more than an editorial calling Loria a liar for no specific reason. It's a more thorough version of your "screw rich people" take so I can see why you like it, but there's nothing material here that says Loria's numbers regarding the sale of the team are inaccurate. You mean beside the part about how he's already been known to fudge the numbers by claiming money paid to himself counts against his bottom line? That specific reason? Didn't you say you were done with this conversation? The rah-rah rich people stuff is getting a bit old.
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Post by jmei on Sept 25, 2018 17:22:10 GMT -5
This argument is grossly misleading because most 20-24 year olds are part-time workers. So are the players we're talking about. Do you have something more thorough that you'd like to share? In season, minor league baseball players work the equivalent of full-time hours. Paying them a minimum-wage equivalent hardly seems like a radical suggestion.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 25, 2018 17:28:04 GMT -5
So are the players we're talking about. Do you have something more thorough that you'd like to share? In season, minor league baseball players work the equivalent of full-time hours. Paying them a minimum-wage equivalent hardly seems like a radical suggestion. It's a seasonal job though.
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Post by swingingbunt on Sept 25, 2018 17:33:50 GMT -5
In season, minor league baseball players work the equivalent of full-time hours. Paying them a minimum-wage equivalent hardly seems like a radical suggestion. It's a seasonal job though. If you want to get cut. Sure.
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Post by jmei on Sept 25, 2018 17:34:14 GMT -5
In season, minor league baseball players work the equivalent of full-time hours. Paying them a minimum-wage equivalent hardly seems like a radical suggestion. It's a seasonal job though. The ask is not that minor league players be paid during the offseason. It’s that in-season, minor league players be paid at least the minimum wage equivalent.
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Post by swingingbunt on Sept 25, 2018 17:40:37 GMT -5
I mean, there's a reason the "Player A was working as a grocer, and now look what he's doing!" makes such a good story. Because it hardly ever happens. According to the people in this thread every single player should be working at the grocery store during the Summer.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 25, 2018 18:02:07 GMT -5
So no matter how good you are, if you play Baseball you deserve well above average pay? No. You deserve at least minimum wage. Please explain why they do not deserve minimum wage.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 25, 2018 18:25:33 GMT -5
The average US citizen age 20-24 makes $27,456 per year, or about $2,288 per month. smartasset.com/retirement/the-average-salary-by-ageSo, you want the salary of the bottom 5-10% of the players in minor league ball who do not contribute to the product of major league baseball and probably never will to have a monthly salary that exceeds the national average by nearly 10%? For basically nothing? This argument is grossly misleading because most 20-24 year olds are part-time workers. Those numbers are for full-time only employees, part-time ones make a lot less.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 25, 2018 18:36:20 GMT -5
So no matter how good you are, if you play Baseball you deserve well above average pay? No. You deserve at least minimum wage. Please explain why they do not deserve minimum wage. All minor leaguers besides those at the lowest level make above federal minimum wage, which is $7.25 an hour. $15 an hour is over double federal minimum wage. Heck even the highest state minimum wage is $11.50 an hour. I have zero issues giving that lower group like the $75 more dollars needed per month to reach minimum wage.
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Post by kingstephanos on Sept 25, 2018 19:10:09 GMT -5
It's always enlightening to read when citizens, like myself, poo poo the basic necessities within a wealthy society.
Wether it's minor-leaguers getting paid a decent wage playing in a rich sport (like they will in the NBAs G-league), or posessing basic universal health care (as every other Western country has) - we in the States fall back on the old 'that's the way we've always done it before'.
To side with the bourgeoisie (the Bezos' and Musk's) over people we truly have common cause with, is a wierd, mostly American phenomenon.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Sept 25, 2018 20:10:01 GMT -5
I advocated for a living wage, something the minimum wage most definitely is not. $15/hour, $2500/month. If you can't afford to pay your employees that you don't belong in business and that's as true for Walmart as it for Baseball. As far as that $27k per average for 20-24 year olds, it's the Bill Gates (now Jeff Bezos) fallacy, Gates walks into a bar, on average everyone is a millionaire. And as to the assertion that marginal players contribute nothing to the system, forum rules prevent me giving the deserved response to that so I'll just say, you need org guys with well above average ability vis-a-vis the average college level player to help the cream of the crop develop. The better their situation is, the better they will be able to compete and drive the system forward.
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Post by ghostofrussgibson on Sept 25, 2018 20:23:13 GMT -5
I agree there ought to be a way to pay minor leaguers a bit more, especially in light of the huge $$$ in play at the MLB level.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 25, 2018 21:18:50 GMT -5
I advocated for a living wage, something the minimum wage most definitely is not. $15/hour, $2500/month. This is literally the reason why everything is made in China nowadays. You're lucky we live in a state where the minimum wage is even 11 dollars a hour.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 25, 2018 21:19:19 GMT -5
I mean, there's a reason the "Player A was working as a grocer, and now look what he's doing!" makes such a good story. Because it hardly ever happens. According to the people in this thread every single player should be working at the grocery store during the Summer. Or the winter.
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