|
Post by hammerhead on Jul 23, 2019 0:28:56 GMT -5
I think Mookie is keeping Boston in his good graces with those comments. After the natural regression from last year's MVP numbers, Mookie wants to keep as many bidders in play as possible. If he had repeated last year's numbers chances are he'd have every team that could afford him bidding into the stratosphere. Seeing as he's come down to earth, and assuming that 2020 looks more like 2019 and not a redux of 2018. He probably has shed a few of the mid-market teams looking for a stud to build around.
So now instead of being a top 3 in baseball he's simply a run of the mill superstar. Teams will offer more accordingly, especially with Yelish and Bellinger adding there names to Trout and Betts, etc.
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Jul 23, 2019 11:17:48 GMT -5
I am a firm believer in the players should try to get all they can. Up to a point. Mookie does not appear to be looking for anything but big money. Looking at the past with Pablo, Hanley and even probably price, I see the sox being caught between a rock and a hard place with bad contracts and competing for the WS. Mookie looks to me like one of those long contracts where the back half of the deal is a huge burden. I believe that the nats and the padres will regret giving the long term contract. I hate to say this but , the yankees look like they have figured things out with controlling their payroll at around 190 to 200 range. Lots of young controllable contracts with a few big ones sprinkled in. Lots of young power arm pitching, which the sox appear to lack inspite of the vast resources they have at their disposal. These young pitchers are key in two ways. One, Pitching is key to winning and if you have 1, 2 even 3 young controllable pitchers in your rotation that is a huge advantage. Then you do not have spend BIG bucks every year to get a price or sale. Two, the abundance of young farm system pitching gives you capital to make trades to fill wholes when you need to, because every organization is looking for young pitching. If Mookie really is YOUR GUY then 5 years at 35. Which probably will not get it done. So, maybe the smart play is to trade him this winter for a package of players that are in like the braves system. A couple of pitchers and an infielder and outfielder.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jul 23, 2019 11:29:10 GMT -5
No one is going to pay Mookie like a top 3 player in MLB when he's the 3rd best player on the Red Sox. So much stuff is being assumed about him and how much he's going to get it's ridiculous. No one knows. I'm still not ever going to trade him for anything that would realistically be offered and would much rather keep him until the end because I care about 2019 and 2020 more than I care about 2021 and beyond right now.
Trading him puts a giant hole in Fenway's right field that would be next to impossible to adequately fill for the next 2 years and would end up costing just as much as they'd either be getting in a Mookie trade or spending the salary, and maybe both.
|
|
|
Post by taftreign on Jul 23, 2019 13:34:25 GMT -5
With his mix of offense and defense he’s in that Arenado range of 8 and $260 mil no matter where he signs. Arenado took a team friendly deal to stay in Colorado, Mookie has shown no indication to do just this. In fact, he turned down 2 team friendly extensions in the past. Mookie is AT LEAST looking at better than Harper and Machado money when he makes it to free agency. Mookie is a better player than both of those guys and deserves more than them. Arenado didn't make it to free agency. Yes they signed for more total dollars but Arenado has a higher AAV at 32.5 per. Machado is at 30 per and Harper at 25.5 per with differed money. Anything higher is getting in Trout territory and I don’t think anyone’s going their for anyone other than Trout. I think Mookie would stay if they offered the Arenado deal.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 23, 2019 16:26:15 GMT -5
No one is going to pay Mookie like a top 3 player in MLB when he's the 3rd best player on the Red Sox. So much stuff is being assumed about him and how much he's going to get it's ridiculous. No one knows. Funny how you make the assumption that no one will pay Mookie top 3 money and then blast anyone for making assumptions. Irony, folks.
|
|
kevfc89
Veteran
Posts: 5,343
Member is Online
|
Post by kevfc89 on Jul 23, 2019 16:32:04 GMT -5
On a slightly different topic, what does a Rodriguez extension look like at this point? He hasn't made a ton of money and he hasn't been terribly consistent either, so he might be open to a more team friendly deal that guaranteed some money now. Just spitballing, but with 2 years of arbitration left does 6/$88M get get a conversation started? 2020 - $8M 2021 - $10M 2022 - $15M 2023 - $15M 2024 - $20M (team option) 2025 - $20M (team option) Haven't heard a lot of chatter on Rodriguez, but I'd be very excited to sign him up on a deal in this range. yea, i think it makes a lot of sense to approach him with something like this...get the team more years of control and him some security. He's still just 26 years old with a career 4.01 FIP pitching in one of the most hitter friendly divisions in baseball. And he appears to continue trying to adjust and fine tune things, so there's a chance his performance can jump beyond this.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jul 23, 2019 16:43:38 GMT -5
No one is going to pay Mookie like a top 3 player in MLB when he's the 3rd best player on the Red Sox. So much stuff is being assumed about him and how much he's going to get it's ridiculous. No one knows. Funny how you make the assumption that no one will pay Mookie top 3 money and then blast anyone for making assumptions. Irony, folks. The point was that he needs another 2018 to be paid that way. Another 6-7 win season and he's not getting more than Arenado. Do you really want to argue with that? Of course you do.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 23, 2019 17:01:14 GMT -5
Funny how you make the assumption that no one will pay Mookie top 3 money and then blast anyone for making assumptions. Irony, folks. The point was that he needs another 2018 to be paid that way. Another 6-7 win season and he's not getting more than Arenado. Do you really want to argue with that? Of course you do. His entire body or work, his overall game, his label on the game as a franchise player, his age when he gets to free agency, and how many teams that have hundreds of millions of dollars to spend will dictate how much money Mookie will get. Not his WAR in one season or another. Harper had 1.3 bWAR in 2018 before cashing in on the second highest contract in MLB history.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jul 23, 2019 17:08:09 GMT -5
The point was that he needs another 2018 to be paid that way. Another 6-7 win season and he's not getting more than Arenado. Do you really want to argue with that? Of course you do. His entire body or work, his overall game, his label on the game as a franchise player, his age when he gets to free agency, and how many teams that have hundreds of millions of dollars to spend will dictate how much money Mookie will get. Not his WAR in one season or another. Harper had 1.3 bWAR in 2018 before cashing in on the second highest contract in MLB history. Harper got the 19th highest contract by AAV, $384K more per year than Ryan Howard.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jul 23, 2019 17:12:07 GMT -5
Fun fact. In Sale's extension, he's getting $233,333 less per season than Jon Lester with 2 fewer years 5 years later .
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 23, 2019 17:24:56 GMT -5
His entire body or work, his overall game, his label on the game as a franchise player, his age when he gets to free agency, and how many teams that have hundreds of millions of dollars to spend will dictate how much money Mookie will get. Not his WAR in one season or another. Harper had 1.3 bWAR in 2018 before cashing in on the second highest contract in MLB history. Harper got the 19th highest contract by AAV, $384K more per year than Ryan Howard. We will see what Mookie does, but he's told the world that he thinks he's worth a certain value. He has shown every hint and indication that this is coming down to total dollars.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jul 23, 2019 17:35:03 GMT -5
Harper got the 19th highest contract by AAV, $384K more per year than Ryan Howard. We will see what Mookie does, but he's told the world that he thinks he's worth a certain value. He has shown every hint ave indication that this is coming down to total dollars. He can think all he wants, but I doubt he'll just retire if no team gives him what he wants.
|
|
|
Post by marrcus on Jul 24, 2019 3:39:09 GMT -5
Since nobody I know of really has a good read on the inner thoughts of Betts there's a lot of speculation out there. No one is better at that than TonyMaz. Since his return from Vaca' he has been stressing that he doesn't think Mookie intends on returning after his deal is up. He says that the percentage is very small that when an all-star gets to UFA he returns to his current team. No doubt he's correct.
I just feel the RS know two things. One: whether Betts is sincere on giving the RS an equal chance or whether they have determined that he will not come back under --almost-- any conditions. Two: the FO has a figure in mind and they will not go over, much like the Ellsbury situation. I do not believe the RS will be forced into a bad deal because others are offering more $. It may be bad pr but they will let him walk.
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Jul 24, 2019 5:27:31 GMT -5
No one is going to pay Mookie like a top 3 player in MLB when he's the 3rd best player on the Red Sox. So much stuff is being assumed about him and how much he's going to get it's ridiculous. No one knows. Funny how you make the assumption that no one will pay Mookie top 3 money and then blast anyone for making assumptions. Irony, folks. Totally agree on this point. I have no idea what Mookie is going to do. There is the assumption that he is the 3rd best player on the sox. Maybe so. Then it would definitely seem that the sox are WAY FAR APART on salary numbers. I do not think that Mookie is looking at 3rd best salary on the sox. So, it would appear that the sox stand to lose Mookie in free agency and get in return a 4th round pick. You could make the assumption that Dave dangles Mookie this winter and sees what he is going to get. Does the return on the trade get him better than a 4th round pick while taking into consideration the results for the season, How confident is Dave that he is going to sign Mookie and for a reasonable price.
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Jul 24, 2019 5:37:36 GMT -5
Since nobody I know of really has a good read on the inner thoughts of Betts there's a lot of speculation out there. No one is better at that than TonyMaz. Since his return from Vaca' he has been stressing that he doesn't think Mookie intends on returning after his deal is up. He says that the percentage is very small that when an all-star gets to UFA he returns to his current team. No doubt he's correct. I just feel the RS know two things. One: whether Betts is sincere on giving the RS an equal chance or whether they have determined that he will not come back under --almost-- any conditions. Two: the FO has a figure in mind and they will not go over, much like the Ellsbury situation. I do not believe the RS will be forced into a bad deal because others are offering more $. It may be bad pr but they will let him walk. One,I hope you are right that the sox know whether Mookie is sincere about signing. That's what Danny thought about Kyrie until this past March. Yeah, I know Mookie is a lot different than Kyrie. Two, I believe that the sox will be careful about taking on a bad contract. But, the question is, is a 4th round pick enough compensation for losing Mookie? I think that if Mookie truly wants to stay he would have looked at a JDM contract with 5 years and opt out clauses.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jul 24, 2019 7:44:18 GMT -5
Since nobody I know of really has a good read on the inner thoughts of Betts there's a lot of speculation out there. No one is better at that than TonyMaz. Since his return from Vaca' he has been stressing that he doesn't think Mookie intends on returning after his deal is up. He says that the percentage is very small that when an all-star gets to UFA he returns to his current team. No doubt he's correct. I just feel the RS know two things. One: whether Betts is sincere on giving the RS an equal chance or whether they have determined that he will not come back under --almost-- any conditions. Two: the FO has a figure in mind and they will not go over, much like the Ellsbury situation. I do not believe the RS will be forced into a bad deal because others are offering more $. It may be bad pr but they will let him walk. Ellsbury was a completely different situation. The Red Sox have no one that could even be a poor replacement for Mookie ready in the minors. He was also so injury prone and relied so much on his speed that the collapse was easy to see coming.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 24, 2019 9:24:04 GMT -5
We're definitely at a healthy place in baseball fandom when people are essentially rooting against Mookie continuing as a top-five player in the game so that the Red Sox don't have to give him a "bad contract".
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jul 24, 2019 10:43:35 GMT -5
We're definitely at a healthy place in baseball fandom when people are essentially rooting against Mookie continuing as a top-five player in the game so that the Red Sox don't have to give him a "bad contract". No one did that. The only thing I did was temper the "he wants a zillion dollar contract so that's what he'll get". He's still a great player, just not zillion dollar great unless he has another 2018. I'd give him a zillion.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 24, 2019 10:48:08 GMT -5
We're definitely at a healthy place in baseball fandom when people are essentially rooting against Mookie continuing as a top-five player in the game so that the Red Sox don't have to give him a "bad contract". I don't think that anyone has advocated that Betts play worse so that he fits into the salary box that Boston has drawn him into. Nobody is rooting against him, but when talking extensions and putting a dollar value on his potential future contributions there's obviously some debate to be had. However, if you want to frame the debate that way, I think the Red Sox have a dollar figure that they will not go over no matter Betts' performance level. Not every team will have that restriction. So, if your only goal is to see Betts in a Red Sox uniform for the next 10 years, he does need to dial it back a bit. Umm...
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 31, 2019 14:15:24 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Aug 1, 2019 6:18:36 GMT -5
As much as everyone on this site does not want to believe it, this has been a real possibility for me since the spring when Mookie would not sign long term. Going after Trout type money with what the sox already have on the books and the cap restrictions puts the sox in a very tough spot. I can see this as a very real situation. Who would offer what and what would Dave accept I have to idea. He will not sell cheap.
|
|
mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,794
|
Post by mobaz on Aug 1, 2019 9:37:13 GMT -5
As much as everyone on this site does not want to believe it, this has been a real possibility for me since the spring when Mookie would not sign long term. Going after Trout type money with what the sox already have on the books and the cap restrictions puts the sox in a very tough spot. I can see this as a very real situation. Who would offer what and what would Dave accept I have to idea. He will not sell cheap. I still find it unlikely that Mookie will get an offer that the Sox won't match. Their long term commitments are Price/Sale/Boegarts, with Devers/Beni/Erod getting into arb. I really want no part of Bradley in his 30s so I don't see them opening 2 OF spots.
|
|
|
Post by jdb on Aug 1, 2019 16:58:05 GMT -5
I think we’ll shake things up in the offseason with a trade or two but I don’t know about Betts. I’m curious what his value would be. A lot of the rebuilding teams might not trade the assets to get him and anyone trading would probably have the money to try and resign him. Would it be a similar situation as Goldy and STL?
|
|
|
Post by sgfeer on Aug 1, 2019 18:09:37 GMT -5
I think we’ll shake things up in the offseason with a trade or two but I don’t know about Betts. I’m curious what his value would be. A lot of the rebuilding teams might not trade the assets to get him and anyone trading would probably have the money to try and resign him. Would it be a similar situation as Goldy and STL? Would need to be team like Washington or the Dodgers, especially if the Dodgers don't win the World series. A little desperation, the financial wherewithal and the players/prospects to send back.
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Aug 2, 2019 5:40:34 GMT -5
As much as everyone on this site does not want to believe it, this has been a real possibility for me since the spring when Mookie would not sign long term. Going after Trout type money with what the sox already have on the books and the cap restrictions puts the sox in a very tough spot. I can see this as a very real situation. Who would offer what and what would Dave accept I have to idea. He will not sell cheap. I still find it unlikely that Mookie will get an offer that the Sox won't match. Their long term commitments are Price/Sale/Boegarts, with Devers/Beni/Erod getting into arb. I really want no part of Bradley in his 30s so I don't see them opening 2 OF spots. At this stage with cap restrictions and the two draft salary pool spending limits, committing large amounts of salary to a few gets more risky than ever before. You also run the risk of hurting the team down the road with lost picks and pool monies. I think that price at 30 for 3 more and sale at 30 for 5 more looks like a poor bet. If you use a base line of 200 mil salary per year, with the other 40 available short term to make a run like last year, those 2 guys tie up 30 % of your payroll with 38 guys still to pay. The 40 is only used like at the trade deadline for that one or 2 guys that you think will put you over the top. It is not long term money. I believe that the sox have offered Mookie 200 mil for 8 years and he turned it down. I think Dave has marching orders from JH and the owners on what are parameters for Mookie's salary. I think at the end of this season the sox will make another run at Mookie and see what he says. If they do not seem to be close then I can definitely see Dave making a trade with Mookie. This is an example only. I can see Mookie going to the dodgers, especially if they do not win the series for 3 to 5 prospect/ major leaguers, They will want a center fielder type, a young starting pitcher, and what ever else Dave can come up with. If Dave ends up going that way I can see other pieces moving as well. Do the sox have the money to pay? Yes The question becomes what number for Mookie fits into their salary model. Do I want Mookie to leave? no. Do I want him to get the money he is due? Yes! What offers Mookie will get I do not know. Like you and all the rest on the site I hope Mookie can be signed without hamstringing the team for years.
|
|