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6/10-6/13 Red Sox vs. Rangers Series Thread
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 11, 2019 22:01:05 GMT -5
Wasn't expecting much today. Bottom line is that despite his stuff, Hernandez simply doesn't throw nearly enough strikes. If he's walking 7 per 9 IP in AA and has a history of wildness prior, it's a lot to expect that he's simply going to come up and suddenly be near enough to the strike zone often enough that he's going to be a guy who can start or replace Porcello soon. With all of the pitches he throws you'd be looking at constant 4 inning outings.
Perhaps they give him another year, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's converted to a reliever at some point, but even then, you can't constantly walk guys. I mean we're not talking somebody here with spotty control who might walk 4 - 4.5/9. We're talking a guy who's going to walk far more than that.
Hernandez is somebody you have to be very patient with and it's possible he never gets his control. Or perhaps he does. In a way he kind of reminds me a little bit of Andrew Miller in that Miller was a guy who was a starter but couldn't throw consistent strikes. It took him a long time and eventually it came as a reliever and eventually he became dominant. Perhaps that's Hernandez's pathway and if it does happen like that, it's likely he finds success at some point elsewhere.
But for the time being, they'll just have to keep starting him in AA and see if his control improves.
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Post by station13 on Jun 11, 2019 22:01:47 GMT -5
Nuñez fWAR = -0.6 Delete please. Alt+F4
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 11, 2019 22:03:26 GMT -5
I guess now Mazzarrotti can call them the fortune 500s, a high payroll playing .500 ball.
If the Sox lose tomorrow's game, that would drop them to 34-35. In 2018, when they had 35 losses, they actually had a mind blowing 86 wins, likely more than 50 extra wins than they'd have now. What a difference a year makes.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 11, 2019 22:09:54 GMT -5
I am frustrated as well, but we could also play the “how would we have filled the holes” game. Would signing Kimbrel have been worth a big contract? What would people be writing 2 years into his 4(+?) year contract? Is losing Joe Kelly a big issue? Did people disagree with Pearce/Moreland? Without busting the budget, who would be our 1B? With Pedroia coming back (they hoped) and Holt and Marco etc etc, who would be worth getting as another utility guy? Should they have passed on Eovaldi? I guess my feeling is they could’ve signed, say, Britton. Not getting a closer was predictably a problem. But this team is just having a collective bad year. It isn’t foremost a roster problem. It’s a performance (and injury) problem. They could have signed Ottavino....but whatever they would have done, would not have been nearly enough this year. The previously labeled "best outfield in baseball"....is hitting .263, .267, .197 with 23 home runs. Beni was once thought to have the swing and talent to challenge for a batting title. This appears a pipe dream. Mookie is relatively emasculated by strikes away and looks to be jumping at pitches hoping to catch one. Even when he pulls, his left arm collapses reducing extension. JBJ at 29 sure looks cemented...in the he is what he is mold. But darkness before Dawn.... I think it’s way too early to give up on Beni. He’s basically doing what Yelich did at a similar age. If he hasn’t broken through in a couple of years, then I’d be more concerned that “he is what he is.”
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Jun 11, 2019 22:09:59 GMT -5
It should be noted that Angel Hernandez is an abomination of a human who should be thrown in jail.
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Post by libertine on Jun 11, 2019 22:11:53 GMT -5
I was expecting some regression this season but this is ridiculous...
They are struggling with the most basic things like putting the ball in play with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs to get a run home. I have seen more K-K in those situations this season than I care to see in any 3.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jun 11, 2019 22:14:54 GMT -5
My view - these young players will be just fine (maybe not this year, but in general and going forward)
Mookie, Benny, Xander, Raffy. That's a great core to keep and build around. This season will be character building for them all.
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Post by dirtdog on Jun 11, 2019 22:16:56 GMT -5
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 11, 2019 22:17:25 GMT -5
They could have signed Ottavino....but whatever they would have done, would not have been nearly enough this year. The previously labeled "best outfield in baseball"....is hitting .263, .267, .197 with 23 home runs. Beni was once thought to have the swing and talent to challenge for a batting title. This appears a pipe dream. Mookie is relatively emasculated by strikes away and looks to be jumping at pitches hoping to catch one. Even when he pulls, his left arm collapses reducing extension. JBJ at 29 sure looks cemented...in the he is what he is mold. But darkness before Dawn.... I think it’s way too early to give up on Beni. He’s basically doing what Yelich did at a similar age. If he hasn’t broken through in a couple of years, then I’d be more concerned that “he is what he is.” To be sure.....my comment was concerning JBJ at 29.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 11, 2019 22:17:57 GMT -5
Wasn't expecting much today. Bottom line is that despite his stuff, Hernandez simply doesn't throw nearly enough strikes. If he's walking 7 per 9 IP in AA and has a history of wildness prior, it's a lot to expect that he's simply going to come up and suddenly be near enough to the strike zone often enough that he's going to be a guy who can start or replace Porcello soon. With all of the pitches he throws you'd be looking at constant 4 inning outings. Perhaps they give him another year, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's converted to a reliever at some point, but even then, you can't constantly walk guys. I mean we're not talking somebody here with spotty control who might walk 4 - 4.5/9. We're talking a guy who's going to walk far more than that. Hernandez is somebody you have to be very patient with and it's possible he never gets his control. Or perhaps he does. In a way he kind of reminds me a little bit of Andrew Miller in that Miller was a guy who was a starter but couldn't throw consistent strikes. It took him a long time and eventually it came as a reliever and eventually he became dominant. Perhaps that's Hernandez's pathway and if it does happen like that, it's likely he finds success at some point elsewhere. But for the time being, they'll just have to keep starting him in AA and see if his control improves. Darwinzon didn’t start pitching until he was 15 or 16; I’m inclined to wait on him, as you say. It’s certainly possible with the violence in his delivery and difficulty reproducing it that he doesn’t stick as a starter, but he also has the build and stuff to be one. If I’m the Sox, at 22 I give him 2-3 years. A lot of starters (A LOT) don’t sort it out until their mid-20s. If anything, with his spin and movement, he could probably settle in at 92-94% of max velocity (basically, sitting 91-93) and still have success, but maybe better control. Over time, he might be able to ramp up. We’ll see; he obviously misses bats and there’s a lot to go into the control issue, including consistent release (a problem) and stride (also a problem). That stuff is sometimes amenable to reps. Here’s hoping he figures it out, because at 3-3.5 BB/9, and 10-11 K/9, my guess is he’s a high-end 3 or even a 2, because I don’t see him giving up a ton of hits. I’m still dreaming on him.
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Post by station13 on Jun 11, 2019 22:51:42 GMT -5
Having a pen that blows that many games must really taken much out of them as a team. Play hard for 9 innings and Brasier and Barnes has blown over half dozen games. That's good for any closer for an entire season. Terrible for 1/3 of the season so far.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 12, 2019 0:25:18 GMT -5
Yeah, it SEEMS like it. That doesn't make it meaningful or predictive, though. Would I bet my life-savings on it? No, of course not. It's just what he has been. Just as much as Sale has been a pitcher who has faded at the end of the year. Betts is entering 2020 in a bit of a lose-lose situation. If he performs like it's 2018 then he continues the narrative. If he "struggles" then this becomes more of a reputation of who he is as a hitter. Someone capable of putting up a big year, but ultimately is a .830 OPS hitter with great defense. I'm at the opposite end of this. Mookie is going to get his 300+ million unless he has a career threatening injury at this point. He's a consistently really good player at this point with consistently great defense. The Sox are the the ones that are in a lose-lose situation. He's easily worth 280-320 million over 9-10 years in free agency. If they give him the money, Betts probably declines defensively and becomes less valuable over the course of the contract. If they trade him within this season or the next season, they take a step back for the future. Betts really put the Sox in a tough situation when he turned down not one, but 2 extension offers and opted for the most money possible. Now they have to overpay him or trade him in the next 12-19 months.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 12, 2019 0:30:29 GMT -5
when i awoke....the Dire Wolf.....600 pounds of sin....was grinnin at my window....all I said was come on in....... Lol that's real deep Jerry.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 12, 2019 0:35:47 GMT -5
Okay see now I think they're playing poorly. They lost the series against New York and Houston because a few balls didn't bounce their way. Whatever. They were basically playing even against the best teams in the AL. But the last 6 games have been ugly, and it's because their weakness has caught up to them - the lack of depth. Lack of starting pitching depth, and lack of positional depth, especially right-handed hitters.
What's underrated is the extent to which injuries have put them in this place - Eovaldi, Johnson, and Velazquez on the pitching side; JDM and Pearce especially on the RHH side. (Sure, Mookie and Beni have slumped - though you should check Beni's numbers since moving back to batting second if you think he's a lost cause. But Devers and Bogaerts have been amazing, and Vazquez has stepped up, and JBJ passed the 5/20 mile marker; the offensive core has been a wash since last year, and really good overall.)
Of course, the Yankees look at our inability to fill in the holes in the lineup and the back of the rotation and spit laconically into a spittoon. And that's the problem - we're substituting our missing starters with barrel-bottom AAAA guys and unready prospects, and substituting our hitters with - gulp - Eduardo Nunez. The Yankees have sure figured out some better ways to deal with their (much bigger) issues.
It's on Dombrowski. As folks have pointed out, a big part of it is the trades we've made to win in the last couple of years. And we sure won last year. So maybe it was worth it and we're just paying the price now. But. It's also the case that Dombrowski already had the reputation of fielding stars-and-scrubs teams when he arrived here, and that's sure what it looks like we've got now. For better or worse.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 12, 2019 1:53:48 GMT -5
It seems to be commonly believed that Dombrowski stripped the Sox minor leagues of so many good prospects that there aren't enough left to help the team now. However, can anyone name a single player traded, aside, possibly, of Travis Shaw, who could be a starting position player for this team, or would be ready to call up? I can't think of any. Two of the best prospects traded have had Tommy John surgeries, Espinoza now with two.
The real problem with the Sox minor league system is that over several years the Sox drafted very poorly. The two drafts prior to 2011 were terrible. 2011 was a bonanza, but then 2012 and 2013 were close to complete whiffs. Since 2014, the drafts look better, especially the last two years, but most of the promising players still are in the low minors.
Somehow the MFYs, who usually draft close to the same position as the Sox, seem to have done much better in the drafts of the last several years. Tampa Bay the same.
There is a certain irony in all this. The previous management made a whole bunch of huge mistakes in trades, resigning playrs (Lester) and drafting, but the results of some of those mistakes only now are really apparent, and the current management gets heat for that.
The only trade of consequence that Dombrowski made that obviously was a mistake, and many on this board said so at the time, was the Travis Shaw trade. It was by no means certain that Shaw was going to develop the way he did - although now he seems to have stalled - but it still was a lopsided trade that should not have been made, given that there was no ready alternative to that fat guy at 3B. However, everyone is entitled to make mistakes and, overall, until this year, Dombrowski had made only this one.
The decision to go with a closer by committee and not add an impact RP to the bullpen now is really showing to be a mistake. I am not saying they should have resigned Kimbrell. I think the Cubs will regret their deal. There were other possibilities that were not pursued, probably because of the salary cap problem. They made a decision not to exceed the cap to try to put the Sox in a better drafting position going forward. That is a rational decision that may pay dividends in the future, but maybe not this year.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 12, 2019 4:57:11 GMT -5
Yeap, Darwinzon had no business being anywhere but in AA trying to find the plate. Poyner hasn't belonged here all year. Nunez is a waste of space. Chavis strikes out all the time and he has a big weakness that everyone exposes at the top of the strike zone. Travis isn't a major lwague ballplayer. The only ones who should be given a look is Shawaryn. He has actually looked okay or decent. I am frustrated as well, but we could also play the “how would we have filled the holes” game. Would signing Kimbrel have been worth a big contract? What would people be writing 2 years into his 4(+?) year contract? Is losing Joe Kelly a big issue? Did people disagree with Pearce/Moreland? Without busting the budget, who would be our 1B? With Pedroia coming back (they hoped) and Holt and Marco etc etc, who would be worth getting as another utility guy? Should they have passed on Eovaldi? I guess my feeling is they could’ve signed, say, Britton. Not getting a closer was predictably a problem. But this team is just having a collective bad year. It isn’t foremost a roster problem. It’s a performance (and injury) problem. Dave Dombrowski's first move in the off-season was to sign a 36 year old Steve Pearce to a lucrative 6.25 million dollar contract to be a platoon first baseman. The Sox could have signed Greg Holland, Derek Deitrich, and Gio Gonzalez to roughly 500 thousand more dollars between the 3 of them and all three would have 3.8 bWAR more value than Steve Pearce. Roughly, you would be 4 wins better right now and 3 more valuable players on the roster than you have at the moment. GMing is hard/tough to do and predict in MLB, but when your first move is THAT (Pearce), then you deserve be criticized. John Henry is a lot to blame here also. This franchise was begging for the owner to go out of his way to spend WAY extra just once while he owned the team for one season, and he didn't because he's John Henry. He doesn't spend past a certain point in his obligitory mind. He owns one of the 10 most valuable franchises in sports, and he is in a league where there is no cap, but nope he is done spending around that 3rd tax line (whether it's a little over or a little under). It's frankly cheap any way you spin it, even if he's spending a lot of money in the first place. Here we are though. 3 games back of the second wild card. The Sox need to treat the next 2 games like playoff games and split here. Getting swept would be devastating and would almost put you into sell mode. Porcello needs to stop pitching like a bum this year and have his biggest start of the season today. Cora needs to put away the sludge at the end of the roster for the next 2 games and just treat this like two play-off games. Dave Dombrowski needs to trade prospects for a rotation piece by the time the next 5th spot in the rotation comes up, and then he needs to trade more prospects for a bullpen arm today. He needs to make up for his poor planning in the off-season. Poor broke John Henry needs to spend a little bit more money right now. This is what needs to happen to salvage this season. I wouldn't fault anyone for believing these things won't happen or not believing in this team in general and wanting to punt this season. Ohh and then there's this last nugget right here-
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jdb
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Post by jdb on Jun 12, 2019 6:16:54 GMT -5
We have a ton of games vs Texas, Minny, LAD, Tampa and Ny before the deadline and that first week of Aug and this season could get even more sideways in a hurry. I’d hate to make drastic trades trying to put chips in for the 2nd WC and by mid July we may be in a controlled sell with out many guys to sell bc expiring contracts. I’d listen on JDM bc the opt outs coming but I don’t know what type of value he’d have. Other than that what type of guys could even get you prospects that move the needle?
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Post by dmaineah on Jun 12, 2019 6:35:43 GMT -5
This team needs a MAJOR shakeup to wake it up. The kind that puts players on notice. A trade or demotion of a player who is underperforming that was/is considered a core piece of the team (and no, for all you haters of me, I'm not talking about JBJ specifically). A message needs to be sent to the players & that message is "start performing or we will find someone else for your job"
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 12, 2019 7:09:34 GMT -5
Would I bet my life-savings on it? No, of course not. It's just what he has been. Just as much as Sale has been a pitcher who has faded at the end of the year. Betts is entering 2020 in a bit of a lose-lose situation. If he performs like it's 2018 then he continues the narrative. If he "struggles" then this becomes more of a reputation of who he is as a hitter. Someone capable of putting up a big year, but ultimately is a .830 OPS hitter with great defense. I'm at the opposite end of this. Mookie is going to get his 300+ million unless he has a career threatening injury at this point. He's a consistently really good player at this point with consistently great defense. The Sox are the the ones that are in a lose-lose situation. He's easily worth 280-320 million over 9-10 years in free agency. If they give him the money, Betts probably declines defensively and becomes less valuable over the course of the contract. If they trade him within this season or the next season, they take a step back for the future. Betts really put the Sox in a tough situation when he turned down not one, but 2 extension offers and opted for the most money possible. Now they have to overpay him or trade him in the next 12-19 months. Oh, he's going to get that money, but if he had another MVP type of year he might be looking at Trout or more money. While you can say Trout is more valuable, Mookie would be a free agent. I'd say Bryce Harper money is his baseline and Trout money is looking like it's slowly slipping away.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 12, 2019 8:25:32 GMT -5
I am frustrated as well, but we could also play the “how would we have filled the holes” game. Would signing Kimbrel have been worth a big contract? What would people be writing 2 years into his 4(+?) year contract? Is losing Joe Kelly a big issue? Did people disagree with Pearce/Moreland? Without busting the budget, who would be our 1B? With Pedroia coming back (they hoped) and Holt and Marco etc etc, who would be worth getting as another utility guy? Should they have passed on Eovaldi? I guess my feeling is they could’ve signed, say, Britton. Not getting a closer was predictably a problem. But this team is just having a collective bad year. It isn’t foremost a roster problem. It’s a performance (and injury) problem. Dave Dombrowski's first move in the off-season was to sign a 36 year old Steve Pearce to a lucrative 6.25 million dollar contract to be a platoon first baseman. The Sox could have signed Greg Holland, Derek Deitrich, and Gio Gonzalez to roughly 500 thousand more dollars between the 3 of them and all three would have 3.8 bWAR more value than Steve Pearce. Roughly, you would be 4 wins better right now and 3 more valuable players on the roster than you have at the moment. GMing is hard/tough to do and predict in MLB, but when your first move is THAT (Pearce), then you deserve be criticized. John Henry is a lot to blame here also. This franchise was begging for the owner to go out of his way to spend WAY extra just once while he owned the team for one season, and he didn't because he's John Henry. He doesn't spend past a certain point in his obligitory mind. He owns one of the 10 most valuable franchises in sports, and he is in a league where there is no cap, but nope he is done spending around that 3rd tax line (whether it's a little over or a little under). It's frankly cheap any way you spin it, even if he's spending a lot of money in the first place. Here we are though. 3 games back of the second wild card. The Sox need to treat the next 2 games like playoff games and split here. Getting swept would be devastating and would almost put you into sell mode. Porcello needs to stop pitching like a bum this year and have his biggest start of the season today. Cora needs to put away the sludge at the end of the roster for the next 2 games and just treat this like two play-off games. Dave Dombrowski needs to trade prospects for a rotation piece by the time the next 5th spot in the rotation comes up, and then he needs to trade more prospects for a bullpen arm today. He needs to make up for his poor planning in the off-season. Poor broke John Henry needs to spend a little bit more money right now. This is what needs to happen to salvage this season. I wouldn't fault anyone for believing these things won't happen or not believing in this team in general and wanting to punt this season. Ohh and then there's this last nugget right here- I argued with you re: Pearce and you appear to be correct. I still maintain it was highly reasonable of them to bring him back for one season at the price they did. Going into the offseason we didn't know that Chavis would be a ready alternative, although he is now crashing back to earth. The Red Sox needed a RH bat, one that can play semi-regularly and come off the bench. If you wanted a bench guy who could do that and produce Pearce made a lot of sense. He's a guy who did nothing but produce since the time he's been in Boston and he had an established track record. He got hurt in spring training and was never right because of it and now he's injured again. You can say - you got your production from him. Now let somebody else pay for it, which is fine and good and I get it. For the record, this is not the first time the Red Sox had a free agent win World Series MVP coming off a highly productive season. Obviously Pearce's 2018 season wasn't Mike Lowell's 2007 season, but then again Pearce wasn't looking for the years and $ Lowell was looking for. Do you remember the clamor to re-sign Mike Lowell? The chanting was beginning at the World Series celebration. At that point, you'd imagine the GM feels kind of compelled to sign the player, and like Pearce, Lowell wanted to come back - actually I think he turned down more $ from the Phillies. So the Sox signed Lowell and sure enough his best performance was in the past and the contract became an albatross. In Pearce's case it's a much smaller albatross, and to be honest, if he gets healthy, it wouldn't surprise me to see Pearce become productive again in the 2nd half. But talking about the bench - this is kind of what happened. Nunez has regressed to the point where his ability to hit for a decent average isn't even there. Pearce was injured, ineffective, and then injured again. Brian Johnson, counted on to be a #6 starter making a bunch of starts, got injured. Hector Velazquez, always pitching better than his meh peripherals, finally caught up to those peripherals. Brock Holt, the biggest bench guy, got hurt and was out for quite awhile, and now with Chavis slumping and Moreland hurt, needs to play more than a bench player would. And like I said, the situations of Johnson and Velazquez have opened the door to a bunch of mediocre starts from others, as has the injury to Eovaldi. So if this is a symptom of winning it all, so be it. Some teams gamble for that championship, don't win it, and they wind up in this boat. At least the Sox have something wonderful to show for it.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jun 12, 2019 8:50:21 GMT -5
I'm all for tanking this year. Not just for the draft pick and bonus pool but also to trade some contracts to eliminate any luxury tax concerns and get a few more prospects for the system in the process. If we're not going to be the best of the best then we might as well be the worst of the worst.
Is it too early to post tank photos?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 12, 2019 8:57:26 GMT -5
I'm all for tanking this year. Not just for the draft pick and bonus pool but also to trade some contracts to eliminate any luxury tax concerns and get a few more prospects for the system in the process. If we're not going to be the best of the best then we might as well be the worst of the worst. Is it too early to post tank photos? They’re not going to do that but even if they wanted to... What contracts are you getting rid of that aren’t coming off the books next year already?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 12, 2019 9:19:47 GMT -5
They’re not going to do that but even if they wanted to... What contracts are you getting rid of that aren’t coming off the books next year already? Porcello would bring back something in return, same with Moreland. JDM would net a good return too. If they do tank I would think that anyone with a substantial cost is on the table. No way they trade Martinez unless we absolutely fall apart in the next month. And even then, it’s doubtful. Trading Porcello and/or Moreland wouldn’t constitute tanking IMO. But yeah both of them make sense to discuss in trade. I actually just made a Porcello trade proposal thread.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 12, 2019 9:20:23 GMT -5
I'm all for tanking this year. Not just for the draft pick and bonus pool but also to trade some contracts to eliminate any luxury tax concerns and get a few more prospects for the system in the process. If we're not going to be the best of the best then we might as well be the worst of the worst. Is it too early to post tank photos? They’re not going to do that but even if they wanted to... What contracts are you getting rid of that aren’t coming off the books next year already? I think is possible someone might be interested in Price again. After his post-season heroics and looking like his TB days this season I would think a contender might be interested in taking on the contract. JD Martinez has an opt-out. He's not a free agent. He could easily decide not to opt out. Price didn't. We don't know what teams think of Martinez and if Martinez feels like he could get more on the open market. He doesn't seem to hate it here either. We just assume he can/will get more. Betts is very highly paid despite only being in arbitration and his figure will bump up again next year and then will become a very expensive free agent. Eovaldi is rather pricey for his value, but I highly doubt anyone would claim him since he's currently hurt and didn't show much this year prior to injury. JBJ is making 8.5. He can go. If there's any remote interest in: Porcello, JBJ, Nunez, Holt, Pearce, Brewer, Braiser, Hembree, Poyner, Thornburg, Velazquez, Walden, Barnes (maybe try to get a little value back for him) they should pack their bags. Don't care if the return value is just a Fenway frank.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 12, 2019 9:20:54 GMT -5
Porcello would bring back something in return, same with Moreland. JDM would net a good return too. If they do tank I would think that anyone with a substantial cost is on the table. No way they trade Martinez unless we absolutely fall apart in the next month. And even then, it’s doubtful. Trading Porcello and/or Moreland wouldn’t constitute tanking IMO. But yeah both of them make sense to discuss in trade. I actually just made a Porcello trade proposal thread. You're not likely to retain both Martinez AND Betts.
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