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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 18, 2019 11:19:11 GMT -5
I just don't see how signing a pitcher like Sale can ever be considered a mistake. He is one of the 2 or 3 best pitchers of his generation. An injury was always a possibility, a risk I am quite sure the Sox front office (and ownership - who i assume had to sign off on this deal) weighed, and decided they were willing to take. They also likely have some insurance that was taken to mitigate the cost risk with him.
When you have a chance to sign a pitcher like this to lead your staff for 5 or 6 years, you do it, and hope for the best. That is how winning ball clubs are made.
Here's to hoping that he can recover and be the great pitcher we have all witnessed all these years.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,852
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Post by cdj on Aug 18, 2019 11:43:22 GMT -5
If they didn’t sign Sale people would’ve bitched and moaned for a decade about giving up Moncada and Kopech for a guy they didn’t even try to re-sign.
Was worth it just to not have to listen to that. I’ll deal with the TJ if it comes
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Post by patford on Aug 18, 2019 11:55:00 GMT -5
The Sox had an MRI done which did not show an ulnar collateral ligament tear or rupture. At a minimum Sale is done for the year. Realistically he should just go ahead and have the surgery done although we have seen pitchers like David Price able to work through inflammation and strain with proper rest and rehabilitation. As I've opined previously the Sale extension was a huge mistake and I'm amazed Dombrowski didn't wait given the number of red flags. In spite of all his strikeouts and periods of dominance Sale often is approaching 100 pitches through five innings and rarely goes seven or more. And he has a well documented history of fading in the second half of a season as well as later in games. Do you have a link on this? Last I read Dr. Andrews was going to read the MRI. Thanks! www.masslive.com/redsox/2019/08/chris-sale-injury-boston-red-sox-send-lhp-to-il-with-elbow-inflammation.htmlThe team doctors apparently diagnosed inflammation. I would think they could look at an MRI and see it there was a rupture. Perhaps they did and it's Sale who is hoping Andrews will see something different ?
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Post by soxjim on Aug 18, 2019 12:17:20 GMT -5
I just don't see how signing a pitcher like Sale can ever be considered a mistake. He is one of the 2 or 3 best pitchers of his generation. An injury was always a possibility, a risk I am quite sure the Sox front office (and ownership - who i assume had to sign off on this deal) weighed, and decided they were willing to take. They also likely have some insurance that was taken to mitigate the cost risk with him. When you have a chance to sign a pitcher like this to lead your staff for 5 or 6 years, you do it, and hope for the best. That is how winning ball clubs are made. Here's to hoping that he can recover and be the great pitcher we have all witnessed all these years. Well we can agree to disagree on several points. 1-- The way you make note of "An injury was always a possibility, a risk I am quite sure the Sox front office . . . ", you could use that excuse for every bad move ever made and not blame red sox management for a thing whether it be because of an injury or a player's lack of performance or the team's philosophy. 2-- In regards to "hoping for the best" combined with this "is how winning ball clubs are made," imo this is how big market teams are turned into losers. IMO it's their fatal flaw that you rely too much on "hope" and "gamble" too much when they don't have to. 3-- I hope your wishes come true. - Hope he recovers. With that said-- imo this is the exact reason why they should've waited. They didn't need to gamble. Now it's nothing but "hope."
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2019 12:31:48 GMT -5
Alright so who are you going to replace him with if you let Sale go? Don't say Cole as teams are going to pay stupid money. Newsflash, there was no plan B behind Sale. We had money issues to begin with, and Sale was willing to sign a reasonable contract. Add in the fact that our plan A in our Minor League System is coming of TJS and we have no plan B there either. It sucks and you could monday QB about how you would do things different, but it was the right move at the time. Don't give up on Sale either. I trust him to come back. It will be hard, but he is going to work hard to come back. LOL. Who are you going to replace him with if he's out next year with $29 mil less to spend? There are a lot of ways to spend money or to build a team. But bad investments don't become good ones because you don't know exactly where else you would have spent your capital. And if you can predict anything with certainty, you should be an MLB GM. But you don't have any previous stupid predictions that never come true under scrutiny like every single one of us make that look embarrassing in hindsight.
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Post by tizzle on Aug 18, 2019 12:48:58 GMT -5
LOL. Who are you going to replace him with if he's out next year with $29 mil less to spend? There are a lot of ways to spend money or to build a team. But bad investments don't become good ones because you don't know exactly where else you would have spent your capital. And if you can predict anything with certainty, you should be an MLB GM. But you don't have any previous stupid predictions that never come true under scrutiny like every single one of us make that look embarrassing in hindsight. I'm wrong plenty and never suggested otherwise, though you can cling to a Straw Man like that if you like. But I do know that betting on a guy who could never hold up for a season in his 20s to start doing so in his 30s is foolish. And they could have easily waited a year to do so, with a downside being it might cost you some more if he defied his entire history. It was a foolish gamble, and was well before this injury happened. I said so at the time and I'll say so if it turns out his elbow will be fine with a few weeks' rest.
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Sale to IL
Aug 18, 2019 13:15:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by jdb on Aug 18, 2019 13:15:30 GMT -5
I’m going to wait until the Doc Andrews appointment to freak out but with it being a lost season there’s no reason to bring him back this year.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 18, 2019 13:32:52 GMT -5
Well we can agree to disagree on several points. 1-- The way you make note of "An injury was always a possibility, a risk I am quite sure the Sox front office . . . ", you could use that excuse for every bad move ever made and not blame red sox management for a thing whether it be because of an injury or a player's lack of performance or the team's philosophy. 2-- In regards to "hoping for the best" combined with this "is how winning ball clubs are made," imo this is how big market teams are turned into losers. IMO it's their fatal flaw that you rely too much on "hope" and "gamble" too much when they don't have to. 3-- I hope your wishes come true. - Hope he recovers. With that said-- imo this is the exact reason why they should've waited. They didn't need to gamble. Now it's nothing but "hope." 1 - I am only making that point because the anti-sing crowd appears to seeing that they shouldn't have signed him until he proved to pitch a healthy 2019, if at all. I think the Red Sox considered that and went with the signing him. 2 - I disagree. Injuries are part of pitching staffs. On a 5 year deal, if he misses 1 year, that doesn't make the deal terrible. When it comes to how Sale actually pitches (results) "Hope and Gamble" aren't 2 words i would prescribe. 3 - that is your opinion and I respect that.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 18, 2019 14:21:20 GMT -5
Well we can agree to disagree on several points. 1-- The way you make note of "An injury was always a possibility, a risk I am quite sure the Sox front office . . . ", you could use that excuse for every bad move ever made and not blame red sox management for a thing whether it be because of an injury or a player's lack of performance or the team's philosophy. 2-- In regards to "hoping for the best" combined with this "is how winning ball clubs are made," imo this is how big market teams are turned into losers. IMO it's their fatal flaw that you rely too much on "hope" and "gamble" too much when they don't have to. 3-- I hope your wishes come true. - Hope he recovers. With that said-- imo this is the exact reason why they should've waited. They didn't need to gamble. Now it's nothing but "hope." 1 - I am only making that point because the anti-sing crowd appears to seeing that they shouldn't have signed him until he proved to pitch a healthy 2019, if at all. I think the Red Sox considered that and went with the signing him.2 - I disagree. Injuries are part of pitching staffs. On a 5 year deal, if he misses 1 year, that doesn't make the deal terrible. When it comes to how Sale actually pitches (results) "Hope and Gamble" aren't 2 words i would prescribe. 3 - that is your opinion and I respect that. 1--- I know. The point is- if the SOx chose to do this. - Just because they "considered" the risks doesn't mean they can be "excused" if their decision turned out to be wrong/not effective. Results carry the day. There were "concerns" even if the degree of concern varies from person to person -- but a guy with a violent delivery, past injuries, a contract starting at 31, fastball decline is not a slam dunk. For example guys younger, without a violent delivery, without a recent and not showing fastball decline have less risk. 2-- We can agree to disagree to the extent of injuries for each type of pitcher. Not each pitcher carries the same risk. There is a higher chance/risk for an older pitcher to either get hurt or not perform to his past when he is in combination previously hurt, has a violent delivery, and is up in age (beyond 30- Sale is 31). Further Sale is showing fastball decline. I surprised though as many - I would've thought he would be okay this year at least and probably next year. 3--- Same here.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 18, 2019 14:23:58 GMT -5
And if you can predict anything with certainty, you should be an MLB GM. But you don't have any previous stupid predictions that never come true under scrutiny like every single one of us make that look embarrassing in hindsight. I'm wrong plenty and never suggested otherwise, though you can cling to a Straw Man like that if you like. But I do know that betting on a guy who could never hold up for a season in his 20s to start doing so in his 30s is foolish. And they could have easily waited a year to do so, with a downside being it might cost you some more if he defied his entire history. It was a foolish gamble, and was well before this injury happened. I said so at the time and I'll say so if it turns out his elbow will be fine with a few weeks' rest. Can you provide the link where/when you "said so?"
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Post by tizzle on Aug 18, 2019 14:43:16 GMT -5
I'm wrong plenty and never suggested otherwise, though you can cling to a Straw Man like that if you like. But I do know that betting on a guy who could never hold up for a season in his 20s to start doing so in his 30s is foolish. And they could have easily waited a year to do so, with a downside being it might cost you some more if he defied his entire history. It was a foolish gamble, and was well before this injury happened. I said so at the time and I'll say so if it turns out his elbow will be fine with a few weeks' rest. Can you provide the link where/when you "said so?" Nope. I post here sporadically and doubt I was posting here that time of year and won't spend my time looking for a post anyway. I don't lie about my opinions. I said I doubted Vazquez would ever hit so I wanted them to move him at the beginning of the year. I said we should look at using Devers as a trade chip last year because I doubted he would ever be a great player. Both of those things I was clearly wrong about, but they were my positions and I'm not going to lie about them now.the Sale contract was hardly even a "wait and see" opinion. It ws just a bad investment and would have been even if they got lucky on it. Everyone I talk baseball with IRL and I discussed what a bad idea that contract was when it happened. But if you want to spend your time calling me a liar, go ahead. I honestly couldn't care less.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2019 14:51:14 GMT -5
Can you provide the link where/when you "said so?" Nope. I post here sporadically and doubt I was posting here that time of year and won't spend my time looking for a post anyway. I don't lie about my opinions. I said I doubted Vazquez would ever hit so I wanted them to move him at the beginning of the year. I said we should look at using Devers as a trade chip last year because I doubted he would ever be a great player. Both of those things I was clearly wrong about, but they were my positions and I'm not going to lie about them now.the Sale contract was hardly even a "wait and see" opinion. It ws just a bad investment and would have been even if they got lucky on it. Everyone I talk baseball with IRL and I discussed what a bad idea that contract was when it happened. But if you want to spend your time calling me a liar, go ahead. I honestly couldn't care less. The point is, if you say enough things, you'll be very right about some of them. Who cares? That does not mean that the methodology is correct.
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Post by tizzle on Aug 18, 2019 15:08:54 GMT -5
Nope. I post here sporadically and doubt I was posting here that time of year and won't spend my time looking for a post anyway. I don't lie about my opinions. I said I doubted Vazquez would ever hit so I wanted them to move him at the beginning of the year. I said we should look at using Devers as a trade chip last year because I doubted he would ever be a great player. Both of those things I was clearly wrong about, but they were my positions and I'm not going to lie about them now.the Sale contract was hardly even a "wait and see" opinion. It ws just a bad investment and would have been even if they got lucky on it. Everyone I talk baseball with IRL and I discussed what a bad idea that contract was when it happened. But if you want to spend your time calling me a liar, go ahead. I honestly couldn't care less. The point is, if you say enough things, you'll be very right about some of them. Who cares? That does not mean that the methodology is correct. As I've said many times now, it was a bad investment regardless of this injury. I dont see any reason to continue covering with you on this, you're adding nothing but trying to be insulting.
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Sale to IL
Aug 18, 2019 15:52:10 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by coachmac on Aug 18, 2019 15:52:10 GMT -5
On pre-game show today, Bradford said that Sale told him in London that there was no way that Sale was going to sign with another team. That he would shut down his free agency before he would go elsewhere.
Sale wasn't going anywhere.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 19, 2019 11:02:07 GMT -5
Anyone else here think Sox should buy six years of Cole at approx David Price level regardless of Sale’s prognosis or am I the only maniac who wants to go all in on him this off-season?
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Post by stevedillard on Aug 19, 2019 11:08:22 GMT -5
On pre-game show today, Bradford said that Sale told him in London that there was no way that Sale was going to sign with another team. That he would shut down his free agency before he would go elsewhere. Sale wasn't going anywhere. Well, since London was this July, and Sale signed before the season, not sure what relevance this has. Always easy to tell a local beat guy “I loved it here and this was the only place I would sign”
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Sale to IL
Aug 19, 2019 11:11:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by soxinnj on Aug 19, 2019 11:11:00 GMT -5
Anyone else here think Sox should buy six years of Cole at approx David Price level regardless of Sale’s prognosis or am I the only maniac who wants to go all in on him this off-season? With what money?
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,753
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Post by mobaz on Aug 19, 2019 11:20:28 GMT -5
Anyone else here think Sox should buy six years of Cole at approx David Price level regardless of Sale’s prognosis or am I the only maniac who wants to go all in on him this off-season? With what money? ALL OF IT!!!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 19, 2019 11:33:26 GMT -5
Anyone else here think Sox should buy six years of Cole at approx David Price level regardless of Sale’s prognosis or am I the only maniac who wants to go all in on him this off-season? With what money? The Red Sox had revenues of 516 million in 2018, not counting like another 200 million plus from NESN. They'll likely be in the 550 plus range this year and close to 600 million for next year with the way they have been exploding over the years, plus the NESN money. The Red Sox have plenty of money to spend!
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 19, 2019 11:53:05 GMT -5
Let's go over this one more time!
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Post by patford on Aug 19, 2019 11:59:05 GMT -5
People wonder who the Sox could sign. It's a good question. Funny though how Wade Miley was kind of a bum with the Sox and then he goes elsewhere and is now top five in the AL ERA leaders. It's almost like Sox pitchers have a different strike zone they have to deal with.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 19, 2019 12:26:36 GMT -5
The Red Sox had revenues of 516 million in 2018, not counting like another 200 million plus from NESN. They'll likely be in the 550 plus range this year and close to 600 million for next year with the way they have been exploding over the years, plus the NESN money. The Red Sox have plenty of money to spend! All of that revenue and NESN still couldn't "afford" to put out a commemorative DVD for the epic 2018 season. Still burns my butt. Best season in franchise history, one none of us will probably ever see again in our lifetime, and they wouldn't put it out. They might have the money but if the Red Sox or NESN don't want to spend it, they won't.
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Sale to IL
Aug 19, 2019 12:56:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by soxinnj on Aug 19, 2019 12:56:59 GMT -5
The Red Sox had revenues of 516 million in 2018, not counting like another 200 million plus from NESN. They'll likely be in the 550 plus range this year and close to 600 million for next year with the way they have been exploding over the years, plus the NESN money. The Red Sox have plenty of money to spend! All of that revenue and NESN still couldn't "afford" to put out a commemorative DVD for the epic 2018 season. Still burns my butt. Best season in franchise history, one none of us will probably ever see again in our lifetime, and they wouldn't put it out. They might have the money but if the Red Sox or NESN don't want to spend it, they won't. I was meaning with regards to the luxury tax.
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Sale to IL
Aug 19, 2019 14:31:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 19, 2019 14:31:21 GMT -5
Any timeline for announcement?
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Sale to IL
Aug 19, 2019 15:33:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by jdb on Aug 19, 2019 15:33:30 GMT -5
Pretty sure I saw a 1pm appointment time so I’m guessing word trickles out any time now.
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