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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 19, 2020 14:40:46 GMT -5
I am missing where the framing comes into it, why is that going away?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 19, 2020 14:42:11 GMT -5
I am missing where the framing comes into it, why is that going away? Automated strike zone. Not directly related to the sign stealing stuff, but it is coming and probably fairly soon. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 19, 2020 15:02:46 GMT -5
I am missing where the framing comes into it, why is that going away? Automated strike zone. Not directly related to the sign stealing stuff, but it is coming and probably fairly soon. Ok got it, almost hate to say I don't have a problem with that either as the umpires kinda suck sometimes. |
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Post by Coreno on Jan 19, 2020 15:28:50 GMT -5
It also should be noted that base stealing would become harder, because catchers wouldn't need to worry about stealing the strike call while receiving in a way that gets them ready to throw. Without framing, the catcher can basically get as close to throwing position as he can so long as it isn't interference. MLB is also playing around with ways to encourage more stolen bases, so... does Ivan Rodriguez have a kid? Yeah but he pitches for the Giants. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 20, 2020 2:36:09 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly, how does a catcher call in signs verbally to the pitcher without him hearing it. You could have the bench do it, but that is a huge change. Nobody has a better understanding of the pitches and the way they are moving than the catcher. That’s why you need the bench to call pitches. Because the batter can hear what the catcher says. And some benches have been calling signs for some pitchers/ catchers for years. Yeah. You take away some control from the pitcher and catcher, but so what? For decades in football the QB called the plays. Then coaches started calling plays from sidelines via hand signals. Then (due to sign stealing) you got radio transmitters in helmets. So what? It's a major change. In football it was just use tech to eliminate signals. What you're talking about isn't simple, it's a huge change. Maybe they go that route, but I doubt it. They can't even get the DH in the NL. |
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Post by bluechip on Jan 20, 2020 11:56:22 GMT -5
That’s why you need the bench to call pitches. Because the batter can hear what the catcher says. And some benches have been calling signs for some pitchers/ catchers for years. Yeah. You take away some control from the pitcher and catcher, but so what? For decades in football the QB called the plays. Then coaches started calling plays from sidelines via hand signals. Then (due to sign stealing) you got radio transmitters in helmets. So what? It's a major change. In football it was just use tech to eliminate signals. What you're talking about isn't simple, it's a huge change. Maybe they go that route, but I doubt it. They can't even get the DH in the NL. You already have benches calling pitches though. As noted by others previously. |
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Post by bluechip on Jan 20, 2020 11:59:52 GMT -5
Yeah. You take away some control from the pitcher and catcher, but so what? For decades in football the QB called the plays. Then coaches started calling plays from sidelines via hand signals. Then (due to sign stealing) you got radio transmitters in helmets. I'm not necessarily saying it's a bad thing, but we are kind of on the verge of completely redefining what a catcher is. Pitch calling, gone. Framing/receiving? Robo zone, won't matter. Can't visit the pitcher on the mound... 75% of what these guys have historically done defensively and as a handler for the pitcher is about to be gone. It's going to become a much more like 1B where there are some defensive skills you care about but most of what determines the player's value is their offense. Again, I don't know if this is bad, but it's at least worth thinking about. We aren’t really bemoaning that third basemen are no longer defensive specialists anymore. |
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Post by p23w on Jan 20, 2020 12:41:33 GMT -5
So the "analysts" call the game..... it's the 6th inning, 3rd time through the order is up. The analysts are computing at top speed. The pitcher in the meantime has the beginnings of a blister. The catcher is aware that the pitcher has lost some "bite" on his breaking ball. The analyst calls for a curve ball. The catcher looks to the dugout (analysts box) and shakes his head. Does the "analyst" go to plan B, or back to what his number crunching calls for? Who makes the call? How about the scenario where the catcher CAN ONLY call for the pitch the analyst call for? The catcher calls for the pitch AND the pitcher shakes him off. Forget the analytics DURING the game. There are variables that are fluid and cannot be calculated during game situations. You already see this with defensive alignments. Hitters can adjust in real time to shifts... or not. Some can/will, others won't. This entire "concept" is beyond ludicrous all the way to mental masturbation performed by wanna-bees. I'm done with this stupidity. The guy who brought modern pitching analytics to the Red Sox is former major league pitcher Brian Bannister, fyi. We're not talking spin rates and mechanics. We're talking about merging a pitchers technical data with that of the "book" on a batter, given a real time game situation. Would Brian Bannister, knowing what he now knows, pitch differently then he did when he took the mound during his days as a player? Does his pitching analysis expertise improve the Red Sox staff? There is a long list of Red Sox prospect pitchers that don't or didn't develop. Some develop elsewhere. The Red Sox have had far better results buying established talent then developing there own. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 20, 2020 13:36:31 GMT -5
The Sox have a guy who was known for his preparation and pitch calling, I bet he would be better than most catchers in calling a game. Tek
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 20, 2020 13:39:36 GMT -5
We aren’t really bemoaning that third basemen are no longer defensive specialists anymore. Is... that a thing that changed? |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 20, 2020 13:44:34 GMT -5
The guy who brought modern pitching analytics to the Red Sox is former major league pitcher Brian Bannister, fyi. We're not talking spin rates and mechanics. We're talking about merging a pitchers technical data with that of the "book" on a batter, given a real time game situation. Would Brian Bannister, knowing what he now knows, pitch differently then he did when he took the mound during his days as a player? Does his pitching analysis expertise improve the Red Sox staff? There is a long list of Red Sox prospect pitchers that don't or didn't develop. Some develop elsewhere. The Red Sox have had far better results buying established talent then developing there own. Yeah that sounds like a good idea to me. As far as Bannister's expertise improving the staff... it's fairly obvious that his department engineered the recent success of Workman and Barnes, with both switching to breaking balls as their primary pitches. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 20, 2020 18:07:06 GMT -5
So what? It's a major change. In football it was just use tech to eliminate signals. What you're talking about isn't simple, it's a huge change. Maybe they go that route, but I doubt it. They can't even get the DH in the NL. You already have benches calling pitches though. As noted by others previously. I just did a quick Google search and found articles stating benches have very minimal impact in calling pitches in the MLB, but it's big in the NCAA. So what teams have benches call all the pitches in? Tampa uses an opener, doesn't mean all teams will. Change is hard in Baseball if it's seen as a big change to the game. Just look at the DH, the NL fights it even though it's great for the game. Again it's nothing like the NFL when it was crazy simple. Stating that some crazy small amount of pitches are called in from the bench doesn't seem to prove anything. When most of them are things like walk this guy, pitch outs and stuff like that. Heck the article I read was written because of how crazy it was in NCAA because it slowed down the game. Coaches studying data while the catcher and pitcher were waiting. It goes against the current MLB goal of speeding up the game. |
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 20, 2020 18:18:05 GMT -5
You already have benches calling pitches though. As noted by others previously. I just did a quick Google search and found articles stating benches have very minimal impact in calling pitches in the MLB, but it's big in the NCAA. So what teams have benches call all the pitches in? Tampa uses an opener, doesn't mean all teams will. Change is hard in Baseball if it's seen as a big change to the game. Just look at the DH, the NL fights it even though it's great for the game. Again it's nothing like the NFL when it was crazy simple. Stating that some crazy small amount of pitches are called in from the bench doesn't seem to prove anything. When most of them are things like walk this guy, pitch outs and stuff like that. Heck the article I read was written because of how crazy it was in NCAA because it slowed down the game. Coaches studying data while the catcher and pitcher were waiting. It goes against the current MLB goal of speeding up the game. Why are you acting like the bench calling pitches is the only possibility? No one said the communication device has to be a mic and earpiece. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 20, 2020 18:47:28 GMT -5
I just did a quick Google search and found articles stating benches have very minimal impact in calling pitches in the MLB, but it's big in the NCAA. So what teams have benches call all the pitches in? Tampa uses an opener, doesn't mean all teams will. Change is hard in Baseball if it's seen as a big change to the game. Just look at the DH, the NL fights it even though it's great for the game. Again it's nothing like the NFL when it was crazy simple. Stating that some crazy small amount of pitches are called in from the bench doesn't seem to prove anything. When most of them are things like walk this guy, pitch outs and stuff like that. Heck the article I read was written because of how crazy it was in NCAA because it slowed down the game. Coaches studying data while the catcher and pitcher were waiting. It goes against the current MLB goal of speeding up the game. Why are you acting like the bench calling pitches is the only possibility? No one said the communication device has to be a mic and earpiece. I'm not. I was responding to a post saying the obvious solution was radio transmitters like the NFL. Which requires the bench calling in the pitches. Nothing about that seems obvious, some sort of smart watch seems like a much better idea. Did you read the conversation? |
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 20, 2020 19:02:25 GMT -5
It just seems like a crazy conversation to be having when we have absolutely no indication that catchers will never be able to call pitches again.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 20, 2020 22:51:31 GMT -5
We aren’t really bemoaning that third basemen are no longer defensive specialists anymore. Is... that a thing that changed? A hundred years ago, but yes it’s a thing that changed. |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 21, 2020 8:55:33 GMT -5
Is... that a thing that changed? A hundred years ago, but yes it’s a thing that changed. 1. I don't think anything that went on in baseball a hundred years ago is particularly relevant to this discussion. 2. Re-prioritizing the way your align your infielders relative to their defensive ability isn't the same thing as redefining the position itself. Taking framing and pitch-calling away from catchers isn't the same as moving your best defender from third baseman to shortstop, it's like saying third baseman are no longer allowed to throw overhand. Adrian Beltre was still one of the most valuable defensive players despite third base not being a defense-first position most of the time. Whereas if you take framing away, Yadi Molina just isn't the same guy. He's a mediocre player instead of a guy with a reasonable shot at the HOF, because you can't take his framing ability or his pitch calling and find some other use for it, the way a great defender can take his glove from third base to shortstop. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 21, 2020 9:02:06 GMT -5
that's a great point would Cash ever consider coming north? Wouldn't the Rays have to grant permission? And if so, why would they do that? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 21, 2020 15:28:56 GMT -5
I am missing where the framing comes into it, why is that going away? Automated strike zone. Not directly related to the sign stealing stuff, but it is coming and probably fairly soon. I have zero issue with taking away the “skill” of turning pitches that are balls into strikes or the ineptitude of turning pitches that were strikes into balls from the catcher. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 20, 2020 19:43:58 GMT -5
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