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Post by dirtdog on Feb 10, 2020 21:31:38 GMT -5
It's also basically ripped out of Andrew Friedman's playbook, no? It’s ripped out of everybody’s playbook.... the cliche playbook....it’s spin Bloom has bosses who told him how much he could spend and who needed to be moved. Therefore Bloom didn't exactly have leverage. I am willing to give him 3 years to see what he can do.
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Post by kingstephanos on Feb 10, 2020 21:37:37 GMT -5
It's also basically ripped out of Andrew Friedman's playbook, no? It’s ripped out of everybody’s playbook.... the cliche playbook....it’s spin Then one of the greatest pitchers of all time, Mr. Martinez, wasn't resigned by the Red Sox and on WEEI the "sky was falling"... they wouldn't win a championship again etc etc. This fear of pragmatic decision making in Boston sports was big in the 90s and early 2000s - but I thought it would end after winning so many championships, spread amongst all 4 teams. Dan Shaughnessy would at least wait for the season to start.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Feb 10, 2020 23:42:07 GMT -5
He's a decent bullpen play, but I think only that. He was given one more run as a starter by the Astros last year, it went badly, and they never gave him another shot at it despite churning through a bunch of other guys and eventually going out and getting Greinke. Rich Hill exists so never say never I guess, but within the realm of realistic outcomes I see him as a pure reliever at this point. Maybe. He had four straight excellent starts, then had a four-start stretch in late April and early May where eight out of 35 fly balls went out of the ballpark. He gave up 24 runs in 18 innings in those four starts, and had a 2.38 ERA in the rest of his 56 2/3 innings. And, like I said, if he's toast as a starter then so what? You move him to the bullpen where he's arguably their best reliever. Could see McHugh getting a chance, but only with minimal dollars and think he could probably now get 3m or so as a reliever if he wanted. My problem is don't see Weber as anything. No real starters beyond 3 and 2 health risks. No real starters at Pawtucket other than Houck who would qualify as potential MLB caliber and only 2 probably headed to Portland in Mata/Ward and no way those 2 ready this year. Can see no way the team can make it relying on some combo of Weber/Johnson/Velazquez/Perez/Hart to get much of anything close to a playoff caliber team's expected results from that crew. There has to be minimum 1 solid veteran addition, or close to MLB SP prospect.
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Post by Addam603 on Feb 12, 2020 13:31:45 GMT -5
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 14, 2020 12:35:58 GMT -5
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soxin8
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Post by soxin8 on Feb 14, 2020 13:54:25 GMT -5
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Feb 14, 2020 13:58:42 GMT -5
I’d pass on Harvey unless he has returned to his peak (which is virtually impossible). His attitude appears to stink. I don’t feel bad using Shawaryn and Johnson as openers. They seem capable of pitching ok once through a lineup.
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soxin8
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Post by soxin8 on Feb 14, 2020 14:05:29 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 14, 2020 14:14:52 GMT -5
I'd sign Harvey and a bunch of the other guys listed. Just do little money incentive laden deals with team options.
The only problem I have using an opener right off the bat, is what do you do if someone gets injured? I don't see how you can do two openers/bullpen games in five days and not kill your bullpen. The Rays use Beeks that was, but he's a guy capable of being a starter and giving you innings.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 14, 2020 14:27:02 GMT -5
I’d pass on Harvey unless he has returned to his peak (which is virtually impossible). His attitude appears to stink. I don’t feel bad using Shawaryn and Johnson as openers. They seem capable of pitching ok once through a lineup. The problem isn't finding a guy to open and pitch the first two innings. The issue is finding a guy who can pitch the 3rd through 6th or 7th inning. You can't have a bullpen game every 5th day without destroying the bullpen.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Feb 14, 2020 14:35:24 GMT -5
I’d pass on Harvey unless he has returned to his peak (which is virtually impossible). His attitude appears to stink. I don’t feel bad using Shawaryn and Johnson as openers. They seem capable of pitching ok once through a lineup. The problem isn't finding a guy to open and pitch the first two innings. The issue is finding a guy who can pitch the 3rd through 6th or 7th inning. You can't have a bullpen game every 5th day without destroying the bullpen. I can see them being a team... combined, 5ish innings. I’m not arguing against taking a flyer on guys (not Harvey). I would have loved to sign Walker. But I don’t mind seeing what there is with the guys we have. Especially with Shawaryn, maybe Houck. Edit: is this an on year or off year for Buchholz?
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 14, 2020 14:52:24 GMT -5
It finally came back to me, but I had like an hour where I legit thought I was going crazy. I'd wiped it from my brain I guess.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 14, 2020 14:57:21 GMT -5
I’d pass on Harvey unless he has returned to his peak (which is virtually impossible). His attitude appears to stink. I don’t feel bad using Shawaryn and Johnson as openers. They seem capable of pitching ok once through a lineup. He had thoracic outlet syndrome, which is a lot worse for your pitching career than a bad attitude.
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Post by soxin8 on Feb 14, 2020 15:04:29 GMT -5
I’d pass on Harvey unless he has returned to his peak (which is virtually impossible). His attitude appears to stink. I don’t feel bad using Shawaryn and Johnson as openers. They seem capable of pitching ok once through a lineup. He had thoracic outlet syndrome, which is a lot worse for your pitching career than a bad attitude. Didn't know that about Harvey. Brian Bannister said it's hard to come back after that. Found this article that said Harvey also had a rib removed in the operation. www.sny.tv/mets/news/matt-harveys-return-from-thoracic-outlet-surgery-was-never-going-to-be-easy/273626826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Feb 14, 2020 15:11:54 GMT -5
All winter I kept hoping Bloom would sign 2 or 3 guys. Several viable pitchers have signed just minor league contracts. Certainly, most if not all won't work out, but I'd like a few more candidates.
Bloom definitely had a lot more important things going on (Cora, Betts, etc.), but would have loved seeing them sign Walker myself. Rooting for Houck, but not holding my breath.
It will certainly be a somewhat weird year for us, but actually becoming intrigued as we get close to the "bell".
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 14, 2020 15:12:50 GMT -5
Any thoughts on the Sox giving Aaron Sanchez a 2-year deal? It seems like he could be an ideal bounce-back candidate in 2021. Might be a good opener at the end of this season...
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Feb 14, 2020 15:14:51 GMT -5
Any thoughts on the Sox giving Aaron Sanchez a 2-year deal? It seems like he could be an ideal bounce-back candidate in 2021. Might be a good opener at the end of this season... I like it. Not sure when, or if, he will be ready, but why not....unless his entire career is in jeopardy.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 14, 2020 15:30:31 GMT -5
The thing with Sanchez is that he's not even a good-when-healthy guy. He's been both very bad and very unhealthy for a while now. If his career isn't in jeopardy I'm not sure who's is.
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 14, 2020 16:33:17 GMT -5
They have 4 SP and 7 relievers who seem certain to make the club if healthy. They replaced Price with Perez, and they added Brice to the relief corps.
Let's exclude Mata, Reyes, and Aybar, as they've never pitched in AAA and are thus not in the opening day mix.
There are 11 other guys in camp who were in the organization already.
Starters: 1 (Kyle Hart) Swingmen: 6 (Hector Velazquez, Ryan Weber, Brian Johnson, Tanner Houck, Mike Shawaryn, Daniel McGrath) Relievers: 4 (Ryan Brasier, Colten Brewer, Bobby Poyner, Domingo Tapia)
In addition to Brice they picked up 7 more guys:
Starters: 0 Swingmen: 3 (Chris Mazza, Matt Hall, Mike Kickham) Relievers: 4 (Josh Osich, Jeffrey Springs, Trevor Hildenberger, RJ Alvarez)
As soon as they hired Bloom it seemed they'd likely go with an opener. They haven't added a single pure SP to the mix and now have 1 starter, 9 swingmen, and 8 relievers competing for the last 2+ jobs (the + is the number of guys in the top 11 who get hurt). Of the 9 swingmen, 7 (all but McGrath and Kickham) are either on the 40-man, are a top prospect not yet eligible (Houck), or have had substantial MLB success within the last two years (Johnson). That's true of just 4 of the 8 relievers.
That sure looks like a team planning to use an opener, too.
You have to like the chances of 2 or 3 of the 18 guys being really good and valuable (the guys who are filling injury spots roughly equals the number of guys whose role is mop-up). And don't dismiss the NRI's: the team is working on a 3-year streak of adding an eventual 40-man guy that way (Walden, Brasier, Weber).
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 14, 2020 16:40:30 GMT -5
I think people are confusing using an opener with a bullpen game.
An opener comes out and faces the top of the order then exits after just an inning or, at most, two. It's usually a reliever around the talent of a setup guy. As stated above, this guy gives way to a long reliever who tries to go 4 or 5 innings. Think the Rays using Yarbrough or Beeks in this fashion. Beeks isn't an opener. He's the long reliever who follows.
The theory is that the long reliever can be more effective if he faces the other team's best hitters less often in turning the lineup over.
What a lot of people seem to be talking about is bullpenning - just using guys to try and get through, at most, 2 or 3 innings. THAT is what would kill your bullpen. In theory, using an opener does not put any more strain on your bullpen than a typical fifth starter would - you're just starting one of the relievers you'd use anyway, but at the start of the game in a favorable match-up.
Using an opener, the Sox would start, say, Darwinzon against a LHH-heavy top of the order. He'd go 1-2 innings, then someone like Velazquez would come in with the idea he'd get through the 6th or so.
We often get asked "would prospect X make a good opener?" and I don't know how to respond because an opener is just a reliever.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 14, 2020 17:53:47 GMT -5
I think people are confusing using an opener with a bullpen game. An opener comes out and faces the top of the order then exits after just an inning or, at most, two. It's usually a reliever around the talent of a setup guy. As stated above, this guy gives way to a long reliever who tries to go 4 or 5 innings. Think the Rays using Yarbrough or Beeks in this fashion. Beeks isn't an opener. He's the long reliever who follows. The theory is that the long reliever can be more effective if he faces the other team's best hitters less often in turning the lineup over. What a lot of people seem to be talking about is bullpenning - just using guys to try and get through, at most, 2 or 3 innings. THAT is what would kill your bullpen. In theory, using an opener does not put any more strain on your bullpen than a typical fifth starter would - you're just starting one of the relievers you'd use anyway, but at the start of the game in a favorable match-up. Using an opener, the Sox would start, say, Darwinzon against a LHH-heavy top of the order. He'd go 1-2 innings, then someone like Velazquez would come in with the idea he'd get through the 6th or so. We often get asked "would prospect X make a good opener?" and I don't know how to respond because an opener is just a reliever. Thanks so much for making this clear. The 9 swingmen are competing to be "bulk" guy who goes 3+ to 5 innings every fifth game, and is available to pitch once in between. The whole idea is indeed to not get behind early by having your #5 starter face the top of the order right away. This is especially important on the road -- the entire home-field advantage is in place by the end of the first inning, because the home starter goes directly from his warm-up routine to the game, while the road starter has a wait of unknown duration. The longer the wait, the less well he fares. (Dave Smith won the award at a SABR conference for that discovery.)
Guys who end up as #4 and #5 starters often do so because they're not good enough to get guys out a 3rd time through the order. An average pitcher goes through the order twice (actually, faces 17 hitters) in 4 IP. So in the old way of doing it, the #5 starter, even on a good day, is typically facing the top / heart of the order for the third time early in the 5th, in his 5th inning of work. And that's where you lose the game trying to get five innings out of him.
If you have an opener pitch the first 2 innings, the 5 starter is facing the top / heart of the order for just the second time, and in the 6th inning, and in his 4th inning of work. He fares better against them because he's both less familiar to them, and less fatigued. And because you're in the sixth, you can go go to the pen if the game is on the line. You've still used your bullpen (including the opener) more than you would have liked to, but all your other relievers are pitching in their accustomed roles.
Everyone's going to be doing this within a few years, and the 5th starter will become a luxury. And we're going to need two new columns in the stat line, GO (games opened) and GK or something similar (games bulk).
Josh Osich really struggled last year pitching on back-to-back days, but had a bunch of 2+ IP appearances and was terrific. I've been thinking he makes the team ahead of Brasier since they traded for him; now it looks like he could be the opener against LH-heavy lineups. Walden, who also can go 2 effectively and needs to be worked less hard than last year, is an obvious candidate for an opener against RH-leaning ones. Brice is another possibility.
I wouldn't preclude two bulk guys making the roster and sharing the job by opposing lineup handedness, e.g. Velazquez and Johnson.
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Post by cdj on Feb 14, 2020 20:33:53 GMT -5
I don’t think people understand how bad throwing a baseball can be for the human body. Once you start talking nervous system injuries that’s when you know things are real. I personally stopped playing after I stupidly tried to pitch through arm troubles for a few years and ended up throwing a pitch and temporarily losing feeling in half of my hand. My scapula still grinds on my rib to this day. Placed a college football bet too fast last year and ended up in PT lol. Lost the bet too smdh south Florida Speaking of how throwing a baseball is bad for you I’m spilling some out for Jeremy Hellickson tonight. Enjoy retirement
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 14, 2020 23:56:34 GMT -5
I think people are confusing using an opener with a bullpen game. An opener comes out and faces the top of the order then exits after just an inning or, at most, two. It's usually a reliever around the talent of a setup guy. As stated above, this guy gives way to a long reliever who tries to go 4 or 5 innings. Think the Rays using Yarbrough or Beeks in this fashion. Beeks isn't an opener. He's the long reliever who follows. The theory is that the long reliever can be more effective if he faces the other team's best hitters less often in turning the lineup over. What a lot of people seem to be talking about is bullpenning - just using guys to try and get through, at most, 2 or 3 innings. THAT is what would kill your bullpen. In theory, using an opener does not put any more strain on your bullpen than a typical fifth starter would - you're just starting one of the relievers you'd use anyway, but at the start of the game in a favorable match-up. Using an opener, the Sox would start, say, Darwinzon against a LHH-heavy top of the order. He'd go 1-2 innings, then someone like Velazquez would come in with the idea he'd get through the 6th or so. We often get asked "would prospect X make a good opener?" and I don't know how to respond because an opener is just a reliever. Exactly. Perfectly said.
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Post by sibbysisti on Feb 15, 2020 12:52:59 GMT -5
Any thoughts on the Sox giving Aaron Sanchez a 2-year deal? It seems like he could be an ideal bounce-back candidate in 2021. Might be a good opener at the end of this season... Bounce back from what? He only had one good season and that was four years ago. If you’re talking 2021, ok. Find out what he does this season. If he “bounces back” then consider a low cost buy.
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soxin8
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Post by soxin8 on Feb 15, 2020 13:24:27 GMT -5
Thanks Chris and Eric for making me feel a little better about not having a set number 5 to start the year.
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