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Post by cheers on Mar 14, 2020 11:35:51 GMT -5
Just got my spring training tickets refunded. Sigh. GO SCIENTISTS GO. Stay well, everybody.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,966
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Post by jimoh on Mar 14, 2020 15:11:29 GMT -5
Might this be a good time for a thread on where on the internet to find old games to watch, e.g. from Sox World Series games or even fun regular season games?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Mar 14, 2020 22:12:51 GMT -5
Scratching my head here ... is there something else catchers do besides hit? That makes no sense. UMass used fWAR which includes defense. It was you that used projected wRC+ to label Plawecki a top backup catcher, not UMass. A second note, if you look at Lucroy's DRS history, he was one hell of a defensive catcher before all the injuries. Both his offense and defense took a nosedive. Neither WAR for catchers includes framing. If they include pitch-blocking, I'm not sure they do a good job
BP has Plawecki as +8.5 Runs defensively. Out of 64 catchers who got regular PT, he ranked 9th in framing and 4th in pitch-blocking, per chances. On a per chance basis, he was the 6th best receiver (the combo); Vazquez was 22nd and Leon was 24th.
Overall defense, Plawecki was the 6th best on a per-inning basis, 4th best among backups. CV was 22nd (10th among regulars) and Leon was 24th (14th among backups).
Now let's simply add Offensive RAA from FanGraphs, and also take it per innings caught.
Plawecki was the 25th best catcher in baseball last year despite the big down year on offense. Vazquez was 14th and Leon was 43rd.
He was actually the 9th best backup catcher last year, but his offense is projected to bounce back. Let's see ...
Tom Murphy, Mariners, was way better than the regular, Omar Navaez; they ranked 5th and 27th. Navez is a good hitter but has terrible defensive numbers. Murphy had a 69 wRC+ in 210 career PA with the Rockies, and had 126 in 281 PA last year. He was getting half the PT in September, and the Mariners dealt Navez to the Brewers.
Jacob Stallings, Pirates, was immensely better than the starter, Elias Diaz, ranking 7th and 58th. What's with the Pirates and their decision-making these days? Diaz has awful defensive numbers the last two years and his very good offense collapsed last year.
Manny Pina, Brewers, the 8th best catcher in MLB, backup up the 2nd best, Yasmani Grandal. Victor Caratini, Cubs, backed up Wilson Contreras; they ranked 9th and 12th respectively, but this is another case of a savvy club grabbing two starter-quality guys. Curt Casali, Reds, 10th, backed up Tucker Barnhart, 19th. The Reds aren't known for their savvy, but those are both starters in a vacuum.
Those were the elite backup catchers.
Russel Martin, Dodgers, only became a backup because Will Smith came along and ranked 3rd. Steven Vogt, Giants, backed up Buster Posey and was nearly as good. Alex Avila, Dbacks, 24th best, backed up Carson Kelly, 16th.
Plawecki backed up Roberto Perez, the 6th best catcher.
So there were 8 clubs that had two guys good enough to start, and only two persisted in starting the weaker guy.
BTW, Lucroy ranked 56th. Tossing in a quick positional adjustment, Plawecki was 4.7 RAA per 850 innings and Lucroy was -24.8.
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Post by mjs on Mar 15, 2020 9:52:46 GMT -5
Couldn't get the game until late on radio. At that point the announcers were giving some FB readings. Does anyone know how hard Johnson was throwing? I was at that game. Was 88-89 on FB, 75 Slider, 70 Curve. Definitely not 93 as reported earlier by Rob Bradford.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 15, 2020 19:27:04 GMT -5
That makes no sense. UMass used fWAR which includes defense. It was you that used projected wRC+ to label Plawecki a top backup catcher, not UMass. A second note, if you look at Lucroy's DRS history, he was one hell of a defensive catcher before all the injuries. Both his offense and defense took a nosedive. Neither WAR for catchers includes framing. If they include pitch-blocking, I'm not sure they do a good job
BP has Plawecki as +8.5 Runs defensively. Out of 64 catchers who got regular PT, he ranked 9th in framing and 4th in pitch-blocking, per chances. On a per chance basis, he was the 6th best receiver (the combo); Vazquez was 22nd and Leon was 24th.
Overall defense, Plawecki was the 6th best on a per-inning basis, 4th best among backups. CV was 22nd (10th among regulars) and Leon was 24th (14th among backups).
Now let's simply add Offensive RAA from FanGraphs, and also take it per innings caught.
Plawecki was the 25th best catcher in baseball last year despite the big down year on offense. Vazquez was 14th and Leon was 43rd.
He was actually the 9th best backup catcher last year, but his offense is projected to bounce back. Let's see ...
Tom Murphy, Mariners, was way better than the regular, Omar Navaez; they ranked 5th and 27th. Navez is a good hitter but has terrible defensive numbers. Murphy had a 69 wRC+ in 210 career PA with the Rockies, and had 126 in 281 PA last year. He was getting half the PT in September, and the Mariners dealt Navez to the Brewers.
Jacob Stallings, Pirates, was immensely better than the starter, Elias Diaz, ranking 7th and 58th. What's with the Pirates and their decision-making these days? Diaz has awful defensive numbers the last two years and his very good offense collapsed last year.
Manny Pina, Brewers, the 8th best catcher in MLB, backup up the 2nd best, Yasmani Grandal. Victor Caratini, Cubs, backed up Wilson Contreras; they ranked 9th and 12th respectively, but this is another case of a savvy club grabbing two starter-quality guys. Curt Casali, Reds, 10th, backed up Tucker Barnhart, 19th. The Reds aren't known for their savvy, but those are both starters in a vacuum.
Those were the elite backup catchers.
Russel Martin, Dodgers, only became a backup because Will Smith came along and ranked 3rd. Steven Vogt, Giants, backed up Buster Posey and was nearly as good. Alex Avila, Dbacks, 24th best, backed up Carson Kelly, 16th.
Plawecki backed up Roberto Perez, the 6th best catcher.
So there were 8 clubs that had two guys good enough to start, and only two persisted in starting the weaker guy.
BTW, Lucroy ranked 56th. Tossing in a quick positional adjustment, Plawecki was 4.7 RAA per 850 innings and Lucroy was -24.8.
BP defensive numbers for Plawecki in 2019 look good #13, Vaz #15 and Leon #26. Yet 2018 Leon #7, Vaz #14, Plawecki #93 2017 Vaz #6, Leon #7, Plawecki #88 I think those tell a very different story.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,923
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Post by ericmvan on Mar 15, 2020 20:25:09 GMT -5
Neither WAR for catchers includes framing. If they include pitch-blocking, I'm not sure they do a good job
BP has Plawecki as +8.5 Runs defensively. Out of 64 catchers who got regular PT, he ranked 9th in framing and 4th in pitch-blocking, per chances. On a per chance basis, he was the 6th best receiver (the combo); Vazquez was 22nd and Leon was 24th.
Overall defense, Plawecki was the 6th best on a per-inning basis, 4th best among backups. CV was 22nd (10th among regulars) and Leon was 24th (14th among backups).
Now let's simply add Offensive RAA from FanGraphs, and also take it per innings caught.
Plawecki was the 25th best catcher in baseball last year despite the big down year on offense. Vazquez was 14th and Leon was 43rd.
He was actually the 9th best backup catcher last year, but his offense is projected to bounce back. Let's see ...
Tom Murphy, Mariners, was way better than the regular, Omar Navaez; they ranked 5th and 27th. Navez is a good hitter but has terrible defensive numbers. Murphy had a 69 wRC+ in 210 career PA with the Rockies, and had 126 in 281 PA last year. He was getting half the PT in September, and the Mariners dealt Navez to the Brewers.
Jacob Stallings, Pirates, was immensely better than the starter, Elias Diaz, ranking 7th and 58th. What's with the Pirates and their decision-making these days? Diaz has awful defensive numbers the last two years and his very good offense collapsed last year.
Manny Pina, Brewers, the 8th best catcher in MLB, backup up the 2nd best, Yasmani Grandal. Victor Caratini, Cubs, backed up Wilson Contreras; they ranked 9th and 12th respectively, but this is another case of a savvy club grabbing two starter-quality guys. Curt Casali, Reds, 10th, backed up Tucker Barnhart, 19th. The Reds aren't known for their savvy, but those are both starters in a vacuum.
Those were the elite backup catchers.
Russel Martin, Dodgers, only became a backup because Will Smith came along and ranked 3rd. Steven Vogt, Giants, backed up Buster Posey and was nearly as good. Alex Avila, Dbacks, 24th best, backed up Carson Kelly, 16th.
Plawecki backed up Roberto Perez, the 6th best catcher.
So there were 8 clubs that had two guys good enough to start, and only two persisted in starting the weaker guy.
BTW, Lucroy ranked 56th. Tossing in a quick positional adjustment, Plawecki was 4.7 RAA per 850 innings and Lucroy was -24.8.
BP defensive numbers for Plawecki in 2019 look good #13, Vaz #15 and Leon #26. Yet 2018 Leon #7, Vaz #14, Plawecki #93 2017 Vaz #6, Leon #7, Plawecki #88 I think those tell a very different story. (Note that those are totals, not rates.)
They tell more of the story, certainly.
When a guy makes a change that extreme, it's very unlikely to be random. Think Jose Bautista and J.D. Martinez at the plate.
There's one more data point here. Chaim Bloom, who knows vastly more about Plawecki than you or I can possibly know, went out and got him.
The Indians have a tremendous track record for taking projected #4 starters and turning them into legit aces (Kluber, Beiber, Clevinger).But it doesn't necessarily follow that they were fully aware of Plawecki's transformation as a pitch-framer.
Bloom, OTOH, has before and after video to look at, and that's just the starting point.
A data point for the data point: he went out and got Kevin Pillar, and in that case, I was able to get a pretty good idea why. Pillar's hitting numbers before the middle of last season (which I myself was taking as important) turn out to be completely meaningless.
Here's a thought I had a few days ago that is worth putting in bold.
The Tampa Bay Rays were among the most analytically savvy teams in MLB and had an extraordinary track record for acquiring undervalued talent. But they did this with zero ability to outbid other teams that had made the same discoveries they had. The Red Sox are now essentially the Rays, with that ability. And in fact, you can bet that the Rays were in on Martin Perez and Kevin Pillar, and we outbid them. And probably ditto for some or all of Peraza, Plawecki, and Puello ... and that's just the letter P!
(Try saying "Perez, Pillar, Peraza, Plawecki" ten times fast. Or even twice!)
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 15, 2020 21:10:27 GMT -5
Moved completely natural coronavirus tangent into the coronavirus thread simply in order to keep that discussion together. Flattening the forum curve, if you will.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 16, 2020 17:32:42 GMT -5
BP defensive numbers for Plawecki in 2019 look good #13, Vaz #15 and Leon #26. Yet 2018 Leon #7, Vaz #14, Plawecki #93 2017 Vaz #6, Leon #7, Plawecki #88 I think those tell a very different story. (Note that those are totals, not rates.)
They tell more of the story, certainly.
When a guy makes a change that extreme, it's very unlikely to be random. Think Jose Bautista and J.D. Martinez at the plate.
There's one more data point here. Chaim Bloom, who knows vastly more about Plawecki than you or I can possibly know, went out and got him.
The Indians have a tremendous track record for taking projected #4 starters and turning them into legit aces (Kluber, Beiber, Clevinger).But it doesn't necessarily follow that they were fully aware of Plawecki's transformation as a pitch-framer.
Bloom, OTOH, has before and after video to look at, and that's just the starting point.
A data point for the data point: he went out and got Kevin Pillar, and in that case, I was able to get a pretty good idea why. Pillar's hitting numbers before the middle of last season (which I myself was taking as important) turn out to be completely meaningless.
Here's a thought I had a few days ago that is worth putting in bold.
The Tampa Bay Rays were among the most analytically savvy teams in MLB and had an extraordinary track record for acquiring undervalued talent. But they did this with zero ability to outbid other teams that had made the same discoveries they had. The Red Sox are now essentially the Rays, with that ability. And in fact, you can bet that the Rays were in on Martin Perez and Kevin Pillar, and we outbid them. And probably ditto for some or all of Peraza, Plawecki, and Puello ... and that's just the letter P!
(Try saying "Perez, Pillar, Peraza, Plawecki" ten times fast. Or even twice!)
I didn't include them, mainly because I knew you would say exactly this, yet he was like #20 and #10 the two years prior. So he didn't breakout, he was very good, then horrible for two years than bounced back last year. Which is saying something, either for the player or the stats in general. Bloom brought him in to be a backup catcher, which seems fine. Yet this he's a starting level catcher crap seems way overblown. If he was other teams would have paid him, the Indians a very smart team just let him go. I'll agree if everything goes just right, he could be a top backup. I certainly wouldn't project him to be one though. There is a lot of up and down in his numbers and as catchers get older with all the extra wear and tear they take they call fall off a cliff at any time. I hope Bloom can bring some of the Tampa magic with him, but can we please stop acting like he was behind it? I mean Tampa hasn't missed a beat and has been great without him. Making great move after great move. While Bloom outside of the Betts trade has basically done nothing besides improve the margins. I hope you are right, but I won't trust Bloom until he proves himself, not just because he came from Tampa. Ben was a super bright young GM that learned from a great GM in Theo and just wasn't ready. I get wanting to trust him, but it's way too early for that. Only two GMs I fully trust Danny and Bill and they earned that over decades of brilliance!
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Post by 07redsox on Mar 17, 2020 8:48:44 GMT -5
(Note that those are totals, not rates.)
They tell more of the story, certainly.
When a guy makes a change that extreme, it's very unlikely to be random. Think Jose Bautista and J.D. Martinez at the plate.
There's one more data point here. Chaim Bloom, who knows vastly more about Plawecki than you or I can possibly know, went out and got him.
The Indians have a tremendous track record for taking projected #4 starters and turning them into legit aces (Kluber, Beiber, Clevinger).But it doesn't necessarily follow that they were fully aware of Plawecki's transformation as a pitch-framer.
Bloom, OTOH, has before and after video to look at, and that's just the starting point.
A data point for the data point: he went out and got Kevin Pillar, and in that case, I was able to get a pretty good idea why. Pillar's hitting numbers before the middle of last season (which I myself was taking as important) turn out to be completely meaningless.
Here's a thought I had a few days ago that is worth putting in bold.
The Tampa Bay Rays were among the most analytically savvy teams in MLB and had an extraordinary track record for acquiring undervalued talent. But they did this with zero ability to outbid other teams that had made the same discoveries they had. The Red Sox are now essentially the Rays, with that ability. And in fact, you can bet that the Rays were in on Martin Perez and Kevin Pillar, and we outbid them. And probably ditto for some or all of Peraza, Plawecki, and Puello ... and that's just the letter P!
(Try saying "Perez, Pillar, Peraza, Plawecki" ten times fast. Or even twice!)
I didn't include them, mainly because I knew you would say exactly this, yet he was like #20 and #10 the two years prior. So he didn't breakout, he was very good, then horrible for two years than bounced back last year. Which is saying something, either for the player or the stats in general. Bloom brought him in to be a backup catcher, which seems fine. Yet this he's a starting level catcher crap seems way overblown. If he was other teams would have paid him, the Indians a very smart team just let him go. I'll agree if everything goes just right, he could be a top backup. I certainly wouldn't project him to be one though. There is a lot of up and down in his numbers and as catchers get older with all the extra wear and tear they take they call fall off a cliff at any time. I hope Bloom can bring some of the Tampa magic with him, but can we please stop acting like he was behind it? I mean Tampa hasn't missed a beat and has been great without him. Making great move after great move. While Bloom outside of the Betts trade has basically done nothing besides improve the margins. I hope you are right, but I won't trust Bloom until he proves himself, not just because he came from Tampa. Ben was a super bright young GM that learned from a great GM in Theo and just wasn't ready. I get wanting to trust him, but it's way too early for that. Only two GMs I fully trust Danny and Bill and they earned that over decades of brilliance! If it's too early to judge Bloom until we see what the results of this off season are (if we ever do!), isn't it too early as well to claim that Tampa "hasn't missed a beat and has been great without him"? I'm sure that will end up being the case as well, but none of their moves have results yet either.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 17, 2020 15:38:43 GMT -5
I didn't include them, mainly because I knew you would say exactly this, yet he was like #20 and #10 the two years prior. So he didn't breakout, he was very good, then horrible for two years than bounced back last year. Which is saying something, either for the player or the stats in general. Bloom brought him in to be a backup catcher, which seems fine. Yet this he's a starting level catcher crap seems way overblown. If he was other teams would have paid him, the Indians a very smart team just let him go. I'll agree if everything goes just right, he could be a top backup. I certainly wouldn't project him to be one though. There is a lot of up and down in his numbers and as catchers get older with all the extra wear and tear they take they call fall off a cliff at any time. I hope Bloom can bring some of the Tampa magic with him, but can we please stop acting like he was behind it? I mean Tampa hasn't missed a beat and has been great without him. Making great move after great move. While Bloom outside of the Betts trade has basically done nothing besides improve the margins. I hope you are right, but I won't trust Bloom until he proves himself, not just because he came from Tampa. Ben was a super bright young GM that learned from a great GM in Theo and just wasn't ready. I get wanting to trust him, but it's way too early for that. Only two GMs I fully trust Danny and Bill and they earned that over decades of brilliance! If it's too early to judge Bloom until we see what the results of this off season are (if we ever do!), isn't it too early as well to claim that Tampa "hasn't missed a beat and has been great without him"? I'm sure that will end up being the case as well, but none of their moves have results yet either. Well doesn't Tampa have a track record? It sure seems like it's been business as usual for them. It doesn't look like we stole the brains from their operation like many had hoped we did. Bloom might turn out to be great or maybe he isn't. Yet he has zero track record, Tampa does.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 17, 2020 15:48:21 GMT -5
They have literally no record since Chaim Bloom left their organization. There have been no games.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 17, 2020 17:46:37 GMT -5
Wow, last I checked Silverman was President and Neander was GM with Bloom being Neander's top lieutenant. With Neander winning 2019 executive of the year award. Are we really going to discredit them and act like they have no record because Bloom left? This is exactly what I'm talking about.
I'm not trying to bash Bloom either. He's a smart young Baseball guy, yet he's never been the guy actually making moves either.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 17, 2020 19:12:43 GMT -5
...I didn't include them, mainly because I knew you would say exactly this, yet he was like #20 and #10 the two years prior. So he didn't breakout, he was very good, then horrible for two years than bounced back last year. Which is saying something, either for the player or the stats in general. Bloom brought him in to be a backup catcher, which seems fine. Yet this he's a starting level catcher crap seems way overblown. If he was other teams would have paid him, the Indians a very smart team just let him go. I'll agree if everything goes just right, he could be a top backup. I certainly wouldn't project him to be one though. There is a lot of up and down in his numbers and as catchers get older with all the extra wear and tear they take they call fall off a cliff at any time. I hope Bloom can bring some of the Tampa magic with him, but can we please stop acting like he was behind it? I mean Tampa hasn't missed a beat and has been great without him. Making great move after great move. While Bloom outside of the Betts trade has basically done nothing besides improve the margins. I hope you are right, but I won't trust Bloom until he proves himself, not just because he came from Tampa. Ben was a super bright young GM that learned from a great GM in Theo and just wasn't ready. I get wanting to trust him, but it's way too early for that. Only two GMs I fully trust Danny and Bill and they earned that over decades of brilliance! They have literally no record since Chaim Bloom left their organization. There have been no games. We need to introduce you to the difference between the present and past tenses.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 18, 2020 8:05:17 GMT -5
Wow, last I checked Silverman was President and Neander was GM with Bloom being Neander's top lieutenant. With Neander winning 2019 executive of the year award. Are we really going to discredit them and act like they have no record because Bloom left? This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to bash Bloom either. He's a smart young Baseball guy, yet he's never been the guy actually making moves either. You've created this strawman that Bloom was wholly responsible for the Rays success and that they lost their intellectual capacity when he moved to Boston. Nobody is arguing that - everyone thinks the Rays are going to be fine. And you're not even successfully burning down your own strawman because you're arguing the Rays have been successful since he left, which there isn't at all measurable.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 18, 2020 15:21:57 GMT -5
Wow, last I checked Silverman was President and Neander was GM with Bloom being Neander's top lieutenant. With Neander winning 2019 executive of the year award. Are we really going to discredit them and act like they have no record because Bloom left? This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to bash Bloom either. He's a smart young Baseball guy, yet he's never been the guy actually making moves either. You've created this strawman that Bloom was wholly responsible for the Rays success and that they lost their intellectual capacity when he moved to Boston. Nobody is arguing that - everyone thinks the Rays are going to be fine. And you're not even successfully burning down your own strawman because you're arguing the Rays have been successful since he left, which there isn't at all measurable. How do you get that? I was saying can we please stop acting like that and let Bloom prove himself. I'm not the one saying everyone Bloom signed is awesome and he saw something hence Perez is a 2/3 and Plawecki is a starting level catcher and we've basically have become the Rays.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 18, 2020 17:18:47 GMT -5
You've created this strawman that Bloom was wholly responsible for the Rays success and that they lost their intellectual capacity when he moved to Boston. Nobody is arguing that - everyone thinks the Rays are going to be fine. And you're not even successfully burning down your own strawman because you're arguing the Rays have been successful since he left, which there isn't at all measurable. How do you get that? I was saying can we please stop acting like that and let Bloom prove himself. I'm not the one saying everyone Bloom signed is awesome and he saw something hence Perez is a 2/3 and Plawecki is a starting level catcher and we've basically have become the Rays. This has devolved into a stupid semantic argument because you don't understand the point being made that there haven't been baseball games yet so there's no way to measure either team. Let's move on.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,923
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Post by ericmvan on Mar 19, 2020 0:06:49 GMT -5
I didn't include them, mainly because I knew you would say exactly this, yet he was like #20 and #10 the two years prior. So he didn't breakout, he was very good, then horrible for two years than bounced back last year. Which is saying something, either for the player or the stats in general. Bloom brought him in to be a backup catcher, which seems fine. Yet this he's a starting level catcher crap seems way overblown. If he was other teams would have paid him, the Indians a very smart team just let him go. I'll agree if everything goes just right, he could be a top backup. I certainly wouldn't project him to be one though. There is a lot of up and down in his numbers and as catchers get older with all the extra wear and tear they take they call fall off a cliff at any time. I hope Bloom can bring some of the Tampa magic with him, but can we please stop acting like he was behind it? I mean Tampa hasn't missed a beat and has been great without him. Making great move after great move. While Bloom outside of the Betts trade has basically done nothing besides improve the margins. I hope you are right, but I won't trust Bloom until he proves himself, not just because he came from Tampa. Ben was a super bright young GM that learned from a great GM in Theo and just wasn't ready. I get wanting to trust him, but it's way too early for that. Only two GMs I fully trust Danny and Bill and they earned that over decades of brilliance! The only reason you're calling their off-season moves great is because the Rays made them. According to MLB Trade Values, they lost the two trades with the Padres 45.1 to 42.3, and they lost the other major trade, with the Cardinals, 31.2 to 21.3 (plus they also get an upgrade from a Competitive Balance B to A pick).
I pointed out that the fact that Bloom knows vastly more about the players he acquired than we do is an automatic reason to like these moves, which is of course exactly what you're doing with the Rays moves. But in proclaiming the Rays to have had a tremendous off-season and Bloom's Sox to have done very little, you're essentially claiming that there's little or no evidence that Bloom was an important factor in their success. No one is arguing that Bloom was largely responsible for it, but your admitted position is that there is as yet no evidence that he had much to do with it.
Can you see this coming? The counter-argument to this claim is that same argument I just gave. The folks who hired Bloom know vastly more about him than we do, and they hired him. That they hired him gives you an a priori reason to think he played a solid role in the Rays success, as a collaborator working within a group, as in most of the best front offices.
Really smart people looked into Bloom and concluded he was really smart. One really smart person, who was also hired by the same people (well, actually JWH personally) to work for the team, has looked into two of his acquisitions in detail and found analytic, hidden reasons to love the moves, and actually called one of the minor moves in advance.
Re Ben: Ben's expertise was in scouting and development, at which he continued to excel. He made some savvy free-agent signings. His trades, like the ones for Melancon, Bailey, and Hanrahan? I was quoted in ESPN the Magazine that "a sabermetrically astute organization would never have made" them. I mean, the team improved analytically under Dombrowski, so what does that tell you?
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,967
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Post by cdj on Mar 19, 2020 23:49:20 GMT -5
Osich got optioned
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