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Post by manfred on Feb 14, 2020 21:43:42 GMT -5
Even before the injury update, my hopeful comp for a left hitting rightfielder with above doubles power is this guy: I am right there with you. If Verdugo can give the Sox 10 years like Trot did I'll be satisfied. If he ends up better, well that will be Sweet !!! You guys sent me down the Trot rabbit hole... truthfully I had forgotten how good he was. I think I remember him as scrappy, etc, to the point that I underrate that he was just damn good when healthy.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 14, 2020 22:48:28 GMT -5
I am right there with you. If Verdugo can give the Sox 10 years like Trot did I'll be satisfied. If he ends up better, well that will be Sweet !!! You guys sent me down the Trot rabbit hole... truthfully I had forgotten how good he was. I think I remember him as scrappy, etc, to the point that I underrate that he was just damn good when healthy. Same, I found myself on his baseball ref page recently and I forgot how much of a stud he was for a bit there. I was a little bit on the younger side for his run with us so that probably factors into not appreciating him fully but damn do I remember him being a dirt dog
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Post by justen on Feb 14, 2020 23:00:34 GMT -5
I am right there with you. If Verdugo can give the Sox 10 years like Trot did I'll be satisfied. If he ends up better, well that will be Sweet !!! You guys sent me down the Trot rabbit hole... truthfully I had forgotten how good he was. I think I remember him as scrappy, etc, to the point that I underrate that he was just damn good when healthy. One of the original "Dirt Dogs"
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Post by larrycook on Feb 16, 2020 1:50:08 GMT -5
Even before the injury update, my hopeful comp for a left hitting rightfielder with above doubles power is this guy: I am right there with you. If Verdugo can give the Sox 10 years like Trot did I'll be satisfied. If he ends up better, well that will be Sweet !!! For verdugo a fracture of the L5, is really slow to heal. All that rotational torque and stress hurts the back. A few more months of rest and if they take their time in rehab and ease him into baseball activities over quite a long time, he should be ok. If he rushes back, ala Pedroia, this injury could be one chronic.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 16, 2020 2:02:00 GMT -5
So all Sale has to do to become a durable work horse is to sit on his couch all winter eating french fries and pizza? I wonder why the Red Sox haven't figured this out. Is that genuinely what you took away from that or are you just trolling? I really can't tell.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 16, 2020 8:24:55 GMT -5
Really, the flu. I mean how bad is it? He lost a couple pounds because he was sick. I don't know about you, but if I get real sick and lose a few pounds, they back on pretty damn quickly when I feel better, and I have no trainers. He's in his 30's. He'll bounce back from this guys. (unless it's the Corona Virus, in which case he'll be on a beach in Mexico all summer). I echo this. I haven't had a flu or missed a day of work in over 5 years. The last time I had a flu is when I received a flu shot. Just more money being wasted away by the government, medicine, and pharm, but I digress... Ah, so the guy who was setting us straight on how serious Verdugo's back injury in also thinks that's it's not worth it to get a flu shot. Makes sense.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 16, 2020 8:25:52 GMT -5
Pete Abe Sunday Globe notes:
"The Sox have not yet named a bench coach, but it’s worth noting that special assistant Jason Varitek is taking a more active role with the players and that Martin Perez was asked to give up No. 33, the number Varitek wore as a player."
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 16, 2020 8:58:53 GMT -5
So all Sale has to do to become a durable work horse is to sit on his couch all winter eating french fries and pizza? I wonder why the Red Sox haven't figured this out. Is that genuinely what you took away from that or are you just trolling? I really can't tell. Right, I took nothing away from this because it's all baseless speculation. No one knows how much Sale weighs right now. No one knows that his weight is directly tied to his durability. No one has any proof that any of this matters one bit and they never will. But please continue. I'm sure if talked about enough, all the answers will come forth and Chris Sale will finally understand what he's doing wrong.
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Post by Addam603 on Feb 16, 2020 10:45:13 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 16, 2020 10:54:31 GMT -5
Is that genuinely what you took away from that or are you just trolling? I really can't tell. Right, I took nothing away from this because it's all baseless speculation. No one knows how much Sale weighs right now. No one knows that his weight is directly tied to his durability. No one has any proof that any of this matters one bit and they never will. But please continue. I'm sure if talked about enough, all the answers will come forth and Chris Sale will finally understand what he's doing wrong. Wasn't Sale the guy that the Red Sox set up as Groome's like workout mentor a year or two ago? There's reasons to worry about Chris Sale but his conditioning is not one of them.
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Post by Addam603 on Feb 16, 2020 12:37:22 GMT -5
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Post by Coreno on Feb 16, 2020 13:00:15 GMT -5
Anyone know who the other catcher paired with him here is? Roldani?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 16, 2020 13:06:58 GMT -5
Devers has two kids? That shocks me because he looks like he’s 16
Extend the man now! Baby needs a new pair of shoes!
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Post by Smittyw on Feb 16, 2020 14:07:02 GMT -5
Devers has two kids? That shocks me because he looks like he’s 16 Extend the man now! Baby needs a new pair of shoes! Yep, he's gonna need that diaper money.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 16, 2020 15:09:05 GMT -5
Is that genuinely what you took away from that or are you just trolling? I really can't tell. Right, I took nothing away from this because it's all baseless speculation. No one knows how much Sale weighs right now. No one knows that his weight is directly tied to his durability. No one has any proof that any of this matters one bit and they never will. But please continue. I'm sure if talked about enough, all the answers will come forth and Chris Sale will finally understand what he's doing wrong. I know that your point was talking about his weight and his durability specifically, but there has been loads of evidence showing correlation between the weight/muscle mass relationship and durability. Like I said before, you can't go asking Chris Sale to get jacked because he loses what makes him work as a pitcher but when he is that skinny he is leaving himself with less to protect his ligaments from damage. That's just science, man. I'm not necessarily concerned if he loses a pound from the pizza he ate a couple days ago but if he is losing good weight, as one tends to do when you have the flu/pneumonia for over 10 days, you're just putting yourself in a hole. So now Sale either is going to have to take time off from game-intensity pitching to get whatever weight he's lost back or he's going to be at even more of a risk of injury because he's pitching light. It's definitely speculation, but it's nowhere close to baseless. edit: just tacking onto the correlation between weight and durability, it's the same reason golfers and distance runners lift. Even if you're not relying on traditional "strength", if you have to repeat a motion a lot that puts stress on ligaments you want to surround it with as much muscle as comfortably possible to protect it. I'm not a doctor but I work for a college track team so I have a lot of discussions with trainers about this and we are actually facing some issues that are not too dissimilar to what Sale has been going through which is why I am so vocal on the subject right now. We had some kids that got sick in mid-January and we still can't run them yet because they lost so much during their sickness and it's not like they weren't taking care of themselves; they have access to doctors, trainers, and the like the same as Sale. Now, I don't think it'll take Sale a full month to get back to it because what he's doing is a little less full-body impact than running a 400, but my whole point is it's a setback to someone that has already had injury concerns in the first place and it's certainly possible that he has a healthy year but it just makes me less confident in that than before.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 16, 2020 15:11:27 GMT -5
Right, I took nothing away from this because it's all baseless speculation. No one knows how much Sale weighs right now. No one knows that his weight is directly tied to his durability. No one has any proof that any of this matters one bit and they never will. But please continue. I'm sure if talked about enough, all the answers will come forth and Chris Sale will finally understand what he's doing wrong. Wasn't Sale the guy that the Red Sox set up as Groome's like workout mentor a year or two ago? There's reasons to worry about Chris Sale but his conditioning is not one of them. But the point is if you're very sick for two weeks you're not going to be performing your normal level of upkeep on your conditioning and if that's what your body is used to, any stopping of that activity is going to cause a pretty significant drop-off. So now in addition to being x period of time behind whatever his conditioning plan had been set to, he has to catch up to the "weight" (catch-all term for just where he and the trainers want his body in terms of muscle mass, body fat %, whatever) rather than doing his normal routine which is probably more just maintenance than anything.
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Post by stevedillard on Feb 16, 2020 15:30:01 GMT -5
Rightfielder out with back injury? Check. Shortstop out with foot injury? Check. Even before the injury update, my hopeful comp for a left hitting rightfielder with above doubles power is this guy: Championship, here we come.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 16, 2020 17:55:38 GMT -5
Anyone know who the other catcher paired with him here is? Roldani? Yeah, that's definitely Baldwin. Would make sense that if they're pairing the catchers in camp off, you'd go Vazquez/Plawecki, Centeno/Bandy, and Wong/Baldwin.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Feb 19, 2020 11:10:09 GMT -5
My first day of the year at spring training today. Very humid so I did not stay long. Sale was doing drills with the other pitchers so whatever illness he had must not be too bad. The minor league spring training schedule is out already. The first games are on March 17th and the last on April 4th.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 19, 2020 11:20:29 GMT -5
Since it's out, I'll note that they're not playing Baltimore anymore, instead playing Atlanta since they're closer at their new facility.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Feb 19, 2020 11:29:12 GMT -5
Since it's out, I'll note that they're not playing Baltimore anymore, instead playing Atlanta since they're closer at their new facility. Yes, and they only play Atlanta twice. The rest are with Minnesota and Tampa Bay.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 19, 2020 13:47:09 GMT -5
My first day of the year at spring training today. Very humid so I did not stay long. Sale was doing drills with the other pitchers so whatever illness he had must not be too bad. The minor league spring training schedule is out already. The first games are on March 17th and the last on April 4th. Was he at the same intensity level as the other pitchers as well?
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Post by carmenfanzone on Feb 19, 2020 16:24:49 GMT -5
My first day of the year at spring training today. Very humid so I did not stay long. Sale was doing drills with the other pitchers so whatever illness he had must not be too bad. The minor league spring training schedule is out already. The first games are on March 17th and the last on April 4th. Was he at the same intensity level as the other pitchers as well? Seemed to be. But the drill they were running was not very intense. It was pitcher's fielding practice with each pitcher taking one rep and then waiting while all the other pitchers in his group took their rep before going again.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Feb 19, 2020 18:54:01 GMT -5
Right, I took nothing away from this because it's all baseless speculation. No one knows how much Sale weighs right now. No one knows that his weight is directly tied to his durability. No one has any proof that any of this matters one bit and they never will. But please continue. I'm sure if talked about enough, all the answers will come forth and Chris Sale will finally understand what he's doing wrong. I know that your point was talking about his weight and his durability specifically, but there has been loads of evidence showing correlation between the weight/muscle mass relationship and durability. Like I said before, you can't go asking Chris Sale to get jacked because he loses what makes him work as a pitcher but when he is that skinny he is leaving himself with less to protect his ligaments from damage. That's just science, man. I'm not necessarily concerned if he loses a pound from the pizza he ate a couple days ago but if he is losing good weight, as one tends to do when you have the flu/pneumonia for over 10 days, you're just putting yourself in a hole. So now Sale either is going to have to take time off from game-intensity pitching to get whatever weight he's lost back or he's going to be at even more of a risk of injury because he's pitching light. It's definitely speculation, but it's nowhere close to baseless. edit: just tacking onto the correlation between weight and durability, it's the same reason golfers and distance runners lift. Even if you're not relying on traditional "strength", if you have to repeat a motion a lot that puts stress on ligaments you want to surround it with as much muscle as comfortably possible to protect it. I'm not a doctor but I work for a college track team so I have a lot of discussions with trainers about this and we are actually facing some issues that are not too dissimilar to what Sale has been going through which is why I am so vocal on the subject right now. We had some kids that got sick in mid-January and we still can't run them yet because they lost so much during their sickness and it's not like they weren't taking care of themselves; they have access to doctors, trainers, and the like the same as Sale. Now, I don't think it'll take Sale a full month to get back to it because what he's doing is a little less full-body impact than running a 400, but my whole point is it's a setback to someone that has already had injury concerns in the first place and it's certainly possible that he has a healthy year but it just makes me less confident in that than before. No offensive but you’ve taken a very complicated subject and really simplified it to such an extent it’s largely inaccurate. First, stop conflating weight and muscle mass. They’re different. The correlation between weight and durability is a spurious one. Otherwise, the solution to durability would be MacDonalds and Dunkin Donuts (I can certify from personal experience this approach while enjoyable doesn’t work... more testing might be required on this as I often tell my gf). The main causal variable is overall level of fitness (which certainly includes a focus on muscle mass but exclusively). Even the concept of muscle mass = durability is wrong because what is more important is the quality of the muscle mass (quality of muscle mass being such elements as fibre composition, metabolism, insulin resistance, aerobic capacity, fat infiltration, and neural activation, etc etc etc). You mention your experience with track— then this should be obvious. You obviously don’t tell a runner, “hey load up on cheeseburgers that’ll protect you from injury.” But you also train sprinters differently than cross country runners. Both runners have excellent muscle mass but even for the two groups the muscle quality will be different as you’re asking their bodies to perform similar but different tasks. Put this another way, take a cross country runner. You can increase the muscle mass on the runner several ways. You can have the runner bench high volumes of reps with low weights or vice versa. High levels of weights with low reps might actually increase muscle mass more than more reps/ less weight but that doesn’t mean the runner is going to get better at running or is better protected from injury. In fact, it probably suggests the opposite. Chris Sale can add 20 pounds of muscle if he wanted. That doesn’t mean it’s the right type of quality of muscle and the presence of added muscle might add not subtract the chances of injury because now you’re adding resistance (and weight) to joints. This added muscle mass might interfere with his mechanics and delivery, which might also add to an increase in injury. This is all my way of saying simply believing adding muscle will increase durability (and decrease injury) is problematic. Muscle mass and quality varies based on the individual and the sport/ activity they’re engaging in. Adding to this, different pitchers have different mechanics and deliveries that make adding muscle mass to a particular location beneficial for one pitcher harmful to another. I’m not suggesting lifting weights and adding mass is bad... just an incomplete way of looking at it. If gaining muscle (or even weight as some have suggested) was all it took for Sale to go 200 plus innings, don’t you think — given how uber competitive he is— he would have done it by now? The issue is complicated. That’s just science, man.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 19, 2020 22:16:05 GMT -5
I know that your point was talking about his weight and his durability specifically, but there has been loads of evidence showing correlation between the weight/muscle mass relationship and durability. Like I said before, you can't go asking Chris Sale to get jacked because he loses what makes him work as a pitcher but when he is that skinny he is leaving himself with less to protect his ligaments from damage. That's just science, man. I'm not necessarily concerned if he loses a pound from the pizza he ate a couple days ago but if he is losing good weight, as one tends to do when you have the flu/pneumonia for over 10 days, you're just putting yourself in a hole. So now Sale either is going to have to take time off from game-intensity pitching to get whatever weight he's lost back or he's going to be at even more of a risk of injury because he's pitching light. It's definitely speculation, but it's nowhere close to baseless. edit: just tacking onto the correlation between weight and durability, it's the same reason golfers and distance runners lift. Even if you're not relying on traditional "strength", if you have to repeat a motion a lot that puts stress on ligaments you want to surround it with as much muscle as comfortably possible to protect it. I'm not a doctor but I work for a college track team so I have a lot of discussions with trainers about this and we are actually facing some issues that are not too dissimilar to what Sale has been going through which is why I am so vocal on the subject right now. We had some kids that got sick in mid-January and we still can't run them yet because they lost so much during their sickness and it's not like they weren't taking care of themselves; they have access to doctors, trainers, and the like the same as Sale. Now, I don't think it'll take Sale a full month to get back to it because what he's doing is a little less full-body impact than running a 400, but my whole point is it's a setback to someone that has already had injury concerns in the first place and it's certainly possible that he has a healthy year but it just makes me less confident in that than before. No offensive but you’ve taken a very complicated subject and really simplified it to such an extent it’s largely inaccurate. First, stop conflating weight and muscle mass. They’re different. The correlation between weight and durability is a spurious one. Otherwise, the solution to durability would be MacDonalds and Dunkin Donuts (I can certify from personal experience this approach while enjoyable doesn’t work... more testing might be required on this as I often tell my gf). The main causal variable is overall level of fitness (which certainly includes a focus on muscle mass but exclusively). Even the concept of muscle mass = durability is wrong because what is more important is the quality of the muscle mass (quality of muscle mass being such elements as fibre composition, metabolism, insulin resistance, aerobic capacity, fat infiltration, and neural activation, etc etc etc). You mention your experience with track— then this should be obvious. You obviously don’t tell a runner, “hey load up on cheeseburgers that’ll protect you from injury.” But you also train sprinters differently than cross country runners. Both runners have excellent muscle mass but even for the two groups the muscle quality will be different as you’re asking their bodies to perform similar but different tasks. Put this another way, take a cross country runner. You can increase the muscle mass on the runner several ways. You can have the runner bench high volumes of reps with low weights or vice versa. High levels of weights with low reps might actually increase muscle mass more than more reps/ less weight but that doesn’t mean the runner is going to get better at running or is better protected from injury. In fact, it probably suggests the opposite. Chris Sale can add 20 pounds of muscle if he wanted. That doesn’t mean it’s the right type of quality of muscle and the presence of added muscle might add not subtract the chances of injury because now you’re adding resistance (and weight) to joints. This added muscle mass might interfere with his mechanics and delivery, which might also add to an increase in injury. This is all my way of saying simply believing adding muscle will increase durability (and decrease injury) is problematic. Muscle mass and quality varies based on the individual and the sport/ activity they’re engaging in. Adding to this, different pitchers have different mechanics and deliveries that make adding muscle mass to a particular location beneficial for one pitcher harmful to another. I’m not suggesting lifting weights and adding mass is bad... just an incomplete way of looking at it. If gaining muscle (or even weight as some have suggested) was all it took for Sale to go 200 plus innings, don’t you think — given how uber competitive he is— he would have done it by now? The issue is complicated. That’s just science, man. I think I said in another comment that admittedly I was using the word "weight" as too loose of a term and I was really talking about weight as it correlates to good muscle, which isn't a great excuse because I should've just taken the time to be more specific, so I'll give you that point. But that's about it. I said in the comment you quoted that you can't expect Sale to put on a bunch of muscle because it will interfere with what makes his body work when it comes to pitching. So while I respect the attempt to be snarky because I'm often snarky as well, it kind of falls flat when the point you're trying to make is ignorant of what I was actually saying. I'll expand on the cross country runner example you touched upon because from a general biomechanics and training standpoint that's probably the most similar to Sale (high repetition, low impact, high mobility movements). You are right that added muscle mass, and the corresponding weight that would come from that, could potentially increase injury risk to that athlete. But that is not, and was never, what I was arguing Sale should be attempting to do. Sale, and your average cross country runner, are skinny, but operate at some equilibrium level of muscle mass. If either one of those athletes gets seriously sick they're going to fall below that equilibrium level because the body is accustomed to a certain level of training that it isn't receiving. As much as a gain in muscle mass might increase injury risk, continuing to lose muscle mass definitely does. So Sale, or the cross country runner, or whoever, is going to have to build back whatever muscle mass was lost just to reach that equilibrium level again. And for Sale, whose equilibrium level already put him at a sub-optimal injury risk, being below equilibrium at this point in the year is not an ideal situation. That's all I'm arguing. I was never attempting to say that Chris Sale should attempt to bump up from 180 to 200 and then boom, he'll never get hurt again. His frame is part of why he's such a unique pitcher. But it's pretty safe to assume that after a week and a half of having the flu and pneumonia he was under 180, so it's going to take a little extra training to even get back to his "100%". And given his injury history he is someone I do not like seeing at less than 100% already. Just not an ideal start. That's all I was trying to say. TLDR: I wasn't saying Sale should be adding weight on top of his normal playing weight, just that he is going to likely need to add BACK the weight he lost from the sickness or potentially be at an increased injury risk. edit: OR, you can sum it up as "gaining muscle is not always good, losing muscle is almost always bad"
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