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2013 Non-Sox MLB Discussion
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 22, 2013 20:46:33 GMT -5
Yep, what they said above.
Braun likely agreed not to appeal in exchange for getting it knocked down from 100 games, which would have extended into next year, to the 65 or whatever the rest of the year will be for him.
As for the Garza deal, I said on Twitter that I thought it was something like WMB (similar profile, similar lack of success this season), Workman (seemed pretty close to me), and Owens (not a great comp, but Edwards' numbers are VERY good this year in the Sally and Sox don't have a P at that level with his profile at all).
Also, the PTBNL could be relatively significant. Neil Ramirez is reportedly among those on a list that the Cubs will pick from. Maybe not a stud, but he's no org guy.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 23, 2013 9:30:26 GMT -5
Question for those more familiar with NYY's farm system how much more they are willing to sacrifice in order to compete in the AL East/WC race this year. It seems they are willing to give up at least a decent prospect for Soriano. Have read reports Williams back tracked this year. Yes, they got 3 1st roundish kids this year and are counting on *maybe* getting a couple (or 3 w/Cano) of like wise next year if Granderson is offered and doesn't choose to return.
It's nice seeing the NYY staying "old" regardless.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 23, 2013 10:18:02 GMT -5
When does Pumpkin Head Colon get his sit-down? Something tells me he's gonna try to appeal and drag it into the off season.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 23, 2013 10:57:46 GMT -5
When does Pumpkin Head Colon get his sit-down? Something tells me he's gonna try to appeal and drag it into the off season. Oakland in the PO picture? No doubt, He's going to appeal if his suspension comes down during the season. Listened to Houston's broadcast last night some during the A's.Astros game as was also Sox.. Astros focused on him and his increase in velocity this year, plus that fact you mentioned.. He's not going down without a fact. ARod either. Those 2 are on teams still in PO and will appeal, plus both are fighters, others may kick it in and take deserved medicine, but those 2 never see own guilt and was glad to see it spilt on at least a local TV network for many too see.
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 23, 2013 11:08:29 GMT -5
Colon probably has the strongest appeal based on double jeopardy of anyone. He already tested positive and served his suspension. Suppose I was arrested after robbing a bank, with bags of money in my car, got convicted and thrown in jail. Years later I was released, and then the police came back and were all "we can tie you to the location of the bank robbery." Well yeah, I robbed that bank and went to jail for it. They can't arrest me again for finding new evidence of a crime that I've already been convicted of served the punishment for.
So it goes with Colon. There would have to be clear evidence not just to connect Colon to Biogenesis, but also that what he got from them isn't what got him suspened last season. Given the timeline of when this story broke, it seems like that will be hard to do.
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Post by elguapo on Jul 23, 2013 11:09:58 GMT -5
MLB has to love getting Braun to plead out, so to speak. Sets a precedent for others. Colon would probably retire if a suspension stuck, secure in the knowledge that he extended his career and salted away a few extra mil.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 23, 2013 11:24:09 GMT -5
Colon probably has the strongest appeal based on double jeopardy of anyone. He already tested positive and served his suspension. Suppose I was arrested after robbing a bank, with bags of money in my car, got convicted and thrown in jail. Years later I was released, and then the police came back and were all "we can tie you to the location of the bank robbery." Well yeah, I robbed that bank and went to jail for it. They can't arrest me again for finding new evidence of a crime that I've already been convicted of served the punishment for. So it goes with Colon. There would have to be clear evidence not just to connect Colon to Biogenesis, but also that what he got from them isn't what got him suspened last season. Given the timeline of when this story broke, it seems like that will be hard to do. Ahh.. Then you also have "3 strikes" law, where you have states that give you 3 felonies and you are done (or in) for life. It works both ways there James. Nothing is clear cut here. Can't pick and choose which way to read the law here, nor MLB and the appeals.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Jul 23, 2013 11:35:00 GMT -5
Nah, James is right on this one. It has nothing to do with a "3 strikes" law, which is based on committing three different crimes. *If* Colon was proved to be doing something with Biogenesis for which he hasn't already been disciplined, he's in trouble. But if they con't prove that it was different, baseball can't punish him twice for the exact same offense. His lawyers would file a suit against MLB before the ESPN report was finished airing, and the MLBPA would file a grievance even faster.
On Soriano, I thought the Yankees were all about shedding payroll ahead of 2014. Soriano carries a pretty good AAV pricetag next year ... seems a strange trade even if they don't give up a significant piece. Dude has a .286 OBP.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 23, 2013 11:41:45 GMT -5
Nah, James is right on this one. It has nothing to do with a "3 strikes" law, which is based on committing three different crimes. *If* Colon was proved to be doing something with Biogenesis for which he hasn't already been disciplined, he's in trouble. But if they con't prove that it was different, baseball can't punish him twice for the exact same offense. His lawyers would file a suit against MLB before the ESPN report was finished airing, and the MLBPA would file a grievance even faster. On Soriano, I thought the Yankees were all about shedding payroll ahead of 2014. Soriano carries a pretty good AAV pricetag next year ... seems a strange trade even if they don't give up a significant piece. Dude has a .286 OBP. It's the same thing.. think. 1 dui, 2 dui, 3 dui.. All add up. No matter u paid for the 1st or not. Same if you already got suspended for the 1st PED, still eligible to get punished for the 2nd. The thing? MLB doesn't have anything in the books regarding a "3 strikes " law that we know of. Same as what I was thinking on NY shedding payroll, also getting younger. They just keep on piling both ways in the wrong direction regardless. That organization will never change until the last Steinbrenner sells.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 23, 2013 12:00:26 GMT -5
John, it's not the same thing. There's no 2nd offense in this case (well, maybe). The problem is if the biogenesis info reveals Colon was only doling what he was already punished for, there's not another offense to add on.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 23, 2013 12:06:11 GMT -5
John, it's not the same thing. There's no 2nd offense in this case (well, maybe). The problem is if the biogenesis info reveals Colon was only doling what he was already punished for, there's not another offense to add on. It's just a question brought up. Thanks :-) Was basically repeating what heard on the broadcast last night anyway.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 23, 2013 12:35:07 GMT -5
Of course a deal was made. Braun is hurt, he makes a lot more money next year and the Brewers are out of the race. He made the deal to try to clear the slate this year and minimize the consequences to him and his team. Not sure what you're position was amfox. But most of the experts on here assured me no suspensions would happen this year. The union would never allow it. Also , I'm sure he tried to minimize the consequences to himself. If you think he cares about his team good for you. Not quite... We're all working with whatever info we can get our hands on, like yourself. Here's my post from a few days ago, updating what I'd read previously: Here's an update to my post from a few days ago about the penalties in the Biogenesis case being put off till 2014. Phil Rogers of the Chicago Tribune says it ain't necessarily so. Lots going on behind the scenes between ownership and the union, apparently. Both are eager to watch this disappear in the rear-view mirror. He says to expect action within the next few weeks. This might get interesting. We're all in the same boat here, one that carries us wherever the details lead...
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 23, 2013 12:48:37 GMT -5
John, it's not the same thing. There's no 2nd offense in this case (well, maybe). The problem is if the biogenesis info reveals Colon was only doling what he was already punished for, there's not another offense to add on. It's just a question brought up. Thanks :-) Was basically repeating what heard on the broadcast last night anyway. A lot of the above discussion reiterates what I posted back on June 19th. Colon has a very legitimate argument if Biogenesis provided him with the drugs he got suspended for using, and that's all MLB has on him. If there are ledger entries after that suspension, that's a very different story. We'll see how foolish he's been, but absent that evidence I don't see that they can suspend him again for something he's already been punished for.
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Post by Gwell55 on Jul 23, 2013 14:34:23 GMT -5
Colon probably has the strongest appeal based on double jeopardy of anyone. He already tested positive and served his suspension. Suppose I was arrested after robbing a bank, with bags of money in my car, got convicted and thrown in jail. Years later I was released, and then the police came back and were all "we can tie you to the location of the bank robbery." Well yeah, I robbed that bank and went to jail for it. They can't arrest me again for finding new evidence of a crime that I've already been convicted of served the punishment for. So it goes with Colon. There would have to be clear evidence not just to connect Colon to Biogenesis, but also that what he got from them isn't what got him suspened last season. Given the timeline of when this story broke, it seems like that will be hard to do. This was what the interviews were for with the players. If any of them lied or are on record as denying the biogenesis lab use and they are found to be lying by either MLB investigations or the facts from the lab owners statements than that is supposed to be a SECOND offense subject to another suspension. I assume once they present to a second hearing with investigators about the allegations such as Colons and Melkys and they again don't answer there will be BUD claiming that is also proof used against them. Might be tricky but it will go through with the mood of the fans today about these guys and steroids. Didn't Melky deny the website too?
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Post by rangoon82 on Jul 23, 2013 16:57:32 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 23, 2013 17:35:22 GMT -5
no its not. It then frees the yankees from his contract
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Post by mainesox on Jul 23, 2013 18:02:41 GMT -5
no its not. It then frees the yankees from his contract I haven't been able to find an answer on this, but does it remove the contract from their luxury tax figure? I'd assume it probably does, but I'm not certain because I don't think a suspended player's contract is removed from those calculations (although banned and suspended are obviously different things).
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Post by mredsox89 on Jul 23, 2013 18:17:28 GMT -5
The CBS report made it sound like if he got a lifetime ban, the $ would come off the tax. Though the wording could also mean "Free up 120M" to be they just get insurance to cover it or just don't have to pay it.
I can't fathom them banning him for life. Maybe the rest of this year and all of 2014?
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 23, 2013 19:02:22 GMT -5
The CBS report made it sound like if he got a lifetime ban, the $ would come off the tax. Though the wording could also mean "Free up 120M" to be they just get insurance to cover it or just don't have to pay it. I can't fathom them banning him for life. Maybe the rest of this year and all of 2014? That's effectively a lifetime ban. But I think that's the end result (rest of 2013/all of 2014).
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Post by mredsox89 on Jul 23, 2013 19:11:38 GMT -5
The CBS report made it sound like if he got a lifetime ban, the $ would come off the tax. Though the wording could also mean "Free up 120M" to be they just get insurance to cover it or just don't have to pay it. I can't fathom them banning him for life. Maybe the rest of this year and all of 2014? That's effectively a lifetime ban. But I think that's the end result (rest of 2013/all of 2014). Not when he's owed $20M+ in 2015/2016/2017. Obviously if the assumption is that he'd either retire after missing 2 years or would have retired by 2015 because he's out of skill then it's a "life" ban
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 23, 2013 19:12:05 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal ?@ken_Rosenthal 8s Delmonico was #Orioles’ No. 4 prospect, according to Baseball America. BA said, “His ceiling is as a first-division corner infielder.”
who is the sox equivlent?
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Post by nhdave on Jul 23, 2013 19:15:25 GMT -5
no its not. It then frees the yankees from his contract I haven't been able to find an answer on this, but does it remove the contract from their luxury tax figure? I'd assume it probably does, but I'm not certain because I don't think a suspended player's contract is removed from those calculations (although banned and suspended are obviously different things). the stfu comments a few weeks ago from cashman told me all I needed to know... which I thought was incredibly unprofessional regardless of my opinion of A-rod. not really fair that the Yankees can gladly take advantage of a-rod's good years and now that we know he's either injured or... lost it, they can conveniently extricate themselves out of that horrific contract...
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Post by jmei on Jul 23, 2013 19:20:37 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal ?@ken_Rosenthal 8s Delmonico was #Orioles’ No. 4 prospect, according to Baseball America. BA said, “His ceiling is as a first-division corner infielder.” who is the sox equivlent? I'd guess somewhere in the range of Blake Swihart. Delmonico and Swihart had a lot of similarities coming out of high school, but Delmonico has already moved off catcher whereas Swihart will probably stick there. Delmonico does project for a little more power than Swihart, so his bat will play at a corner infield position.
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 23, 2013 19:20:47 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal ?@ken_Rosenthal 8s Delmonico was #Orioles’ No. 4 prospect, according to Baseball America. BA said, “His ceiling is as a first-division corner infielder.” who is the sox equivlent? Don't really have one. Cecchini is too much and Marrero is not enough. Call it Marrero plus. EDIT: Delmonico is a full price for K-Rod.
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Post by Gwell55 on Jul 23, 2013 19:23:44 GMT -5
the stfu comments a few weeks ago from cashman told me all I needed to know... which I thought was incredibly unprofessional regardless of my opinion of A-rod. not really fair that the Yankees can gladly take advantage of a-rod's good years and now that we know he's either injured or... lost it, they can conveniently extricate themselves out of that horrific contract... This is my feeling too. However with a little luck aroids II will appeal his suspension and force the yanks to pay the full 28 million this year and not the 20 next year. Then with a little luck they can give him 150 games and the yanks are stuck with the next part of his contract even if he is injured!
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