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Verdugo’s Back Injury Revealed to be a Stress Fracture
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 16, 2020 15:44:11 GMT -5
Can you give us a reason why we should believe that you know more than the Red Sox do without knowing anything about the injury, without seeing the records and without being a doctor? No. That is the reason for this debate. If I had the medicals that the Sox do, I would be able to make a much sounder decision. I'm just explaining how my previous experiences with stress fractures indicate that they are nothing to take lightly. With this type of fracture, in particular for a baseball player that needs torque generated from that region, it gives me a lot of pause. I am glad that they are taking it slow with him.. Okay, but you also still haven't explained how those quotes from medical officials directly refuting your point somehow proved your point. |
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 16, 2020 15:47:29 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 16, 2020 18:06:52 GMT -5
We're now going in circles. Let's try not to do that and only keep going if there's something to move the ball forward, ok?
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Feb 16, 2020 18:53:47 GMT -5
I can't help but look at this situation as much more than a salary dump. Both Price and Betts had major value. Significant value. We had a team that might have contended this year. They hauled the truck up and dumped the load, at first for 2 injured players. When some of us raised the health issue early on we were criticized for it, and particularly raised the shoulder issue. Surprise, they do the medicals and found out they bought a used car with the milage odometer rolled back yet again. I like Redsox management but how many times do they have to make deals for injured players before they figure it out. They try to extend players for years with no success and then they are all over it after an injury ( Chris Sale, Schilling...etc ). And they get burned. Now twice again they do deals of major value, for 2 injured players. Keep the owners. Lose the rest of the player evaluation staff, or whoever is causing these instances of bad judgement.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 16, 2020 19:06:11 GMT -5
I can't help but look at this situation as much more than a salary dump. Both Price and Betts had major value. Significant value. We had a team that might have contended this year. They hauled the truck up and dumped the load, at first for 2 injured players. When some of us raised the health issue early on we were criticized for it, and particularly raised the shoulder issue. Surprise, they do the medicals and found out they bought a used car with the milage odometer rolled back yet again. I like Redsox management but how many times do they have to make deals for injured players before they figure it out. They try to extend players for years with no success and then they are all over it after an injury ( Chris Sale, Schilling...etc ). And they get burned. Now twice again they do deals of major value, for 2 injured players. Keep the owners. Lose the rest of the player evaluation staff, or whoever is causing these instances of bad judgement.Considering that there have been multiple iterations of management since the trading for injured players have started, why would you want to keep the one group of people that has stayed consistent through this trend? |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 16, 2020 19:14:08 GMT -5
Good look at what sports medicine brings to the table. Thanks for that link. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 16, 2020 19:19:23 GMT -5
I can't help but look at this situation as much more than a salary dump. Both Price and Betts had major value. Significant value. We had a team that might have contended this year. They hauled the truck up and dumped the load, at first for 2 injured players. When some of us raised the health issue early on we were criticized for it, and particularly raised the shoulder issue. Surprise, they do the medicals and found out they bought a used car with the milage odometer rolled back yet again. I like Redsox management but how many times do they have to make deals for injured players before they figure it out. They try to extend players for years with no success and then they are all over it after an injury ( Chris Sale, Schilling...etc ). And they get burned. Now twice again they do deals of major value, for 2 injured players. Keep the owners. Lose the rest of the player evaluation staff, or whoever is causing these instances of bad judgement. Not really. Mookie is going to the highest bidder after this season. How much more are you really asking for? Dodger stadium shouldn't be great for his swing. I don't expect him to suck, but if he has an .848 OPS and a 6.0 WAR, would that really be worth a top 5 prospect in baseball that some of you are expecting? David Price at 16 million is fair value for the pitcher he is now. With that said, if his special elbow ever decides to pop, that could be the end of his career. He's 34 now and it'll take him about 2 years to recover from that. He hasn't been completely healthy 2 of the last 3 seasons. They got January 2019 Baseball Prospectus' 16th best prospect who had a 3.0 his rookie season and MLBs 44th ranked prospect. I don't get why people think they got trash in return. This idea that they're getting eviscerated for doing their job and reworked the trade after Graterol failed is infuriating. They thought he could be an ace. They saw the medicals and realized he's a bullpen arm. Because they checked his medicals, they nixed the original deal. That's why trades are always PENDING PHYSICAL. Another thing that's annoying as well, if he's such damaged goods and has no value. If he's such a fat guy with a blown out shoulder, why did the Dodgers acquire him? He still got traded. I actually like this deal better from the Dodgers perspective. If they're going for it in 2020 then a guy like Graterol is a fantastic get for them. I hope he has a huge year for them. |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 16, 2020 22:00:11 GMT -5
Not really. Mookie is going to the highest bidder after this season. How much more are you really asking for? Dodger stadium shouldn't be great for his swing. I don't expect him to suck, but if he has an .848 OPS and a 6.0 WAR, would that really be worth a top 5 prospect in baseball that some of you are expecting? |
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Post by caseytins on Feb 16, 2020 22:27:20 GMT -5
Well, I can tell you for a fact that you a wrong with your prognosis. The fact that most of his treatment time was with the Dodgers and he was the one player the Dodgers were most willing to part with. Does that give you a tad of hesitation? Please don't be a fool.Please don't use that language, don't start in. That just gets us into a cycle we'd prefer not to deal with. Thank you. Honestly, though, I feel like I am conversing with a bunch of 3rd graders on this site. I have a lot of experience with these type of fractures. I have a phD and am familiar with images. It can be a very serious injury, especially for a baseball player. Of all sports, an L5 fracture for baseball players is the most serious. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 16, 2020 23:20:57 GMT -5
Please don't use that language, don't start in. That just gets us into a cycle we'd prefer not to deal with. Thank you. Honestly, though, I feel like I am conversing with a bunch of 3rd graders on this site. I have a lot of experience with these type of fractures. I have a phD and am familiar with images. It can be a very serious injury, especially for a baseball player. Of all sports, an L5 fracture for baseball players is the most serious. You know, no one knows who you are, so when you make claims without citing where you're getting you're information you're putting others in an impossible situation. There have been quotes from other medical professionals that contradict yourself. If you had started with, "I work in the field and I have personal experience with this" the dialog might be a little different. So, I don't think that's fair to say you're arguing with a bunch of 3rd graders when others are providing sourced information whereas you hadn't. Going backwards, how did those quotes from those doctors prove your point? You still haven't answered that. I would think that no two injuries are the same, but judging that they failed the other player in the trade, I have to trust the Red Sox medical professionals know his injury isn't significant enough to be a longterm concern. I also don't think they've made the images public so being familiar with images I don't think is helpful in this circumstance. |
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Post by caseytins on Feb 17, 2020 0:26:16 GMT -5
Honestly, though, I feel like I am conversing with a bunch of 3rd graders on this site. I have a lot of experience with these type of fractures. I have a phD and am familiar with images. It can be a very serious injury, especially for a baseball player. Of all sports, an L5 fracture for baseball players is the most serious. You know, no one knows who you are, so when you make claims without citing where you're getting you're information you're putting others in an impossible situation. There have been quotes from other medical professionals that contradict yourself. If you had started with, "I work in the field and I have personal experience with this" the dialog might be a little different. So, I don't think that's fair to say you're arguing with a bunch of 3rd graders when others are providing sourced information whereas you hadn't. Going backwards, how did those quotes from those doctors prove your point? You still haven't answered that. I would think that no two injuries are the same, but judging that they failed the other player in the trade, I have to trust the Red Sox medical professionals know his injury isn't significant enough to be a longterm concern. I also don't think they've made the images public so being familiar with images I don't think is helpful in this circumstance. I don't know who any of you are. I know that I have experience in this field. Also, you prove my point at the end. Without the images, how can we properly ascertain the injury? The rhetoric about the Red Sox waving a red flag on Graterol and a white flag for Verdugo leave me even more confounded. Let's be honest, their medical staff hasn't been so great as of late.. |
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 17, 2020 2:19:57 GMT -5
You know, no one knows who you are, so when you make claims without citing where you're getting you're information you're putting others in an impossible situation. There have been quotes from other medical professionals that contradict yourself. If you had started with, "I work in the field and I have personal experience with this" the dialog might be a little different. So, I don't think that's fair to say you're arguing with a bunch of 3rd graders when others are providing sourced information whereas you hadn't. Going backwards, how did those quotes from those doctors prove your point? You still haven't answered that. I would think that no two injuries are the same, but judging that they failed the other player in the trade, I have to trust the Red Sox medical professionals know his injury isn't significant enough to be a longterm concern. I also don't think they've made the images public so being familiar with images I don't think is helpful in this circumstance. I don't know who any of you are. I know that I have experience in this field. Also, you prove my point at the end. Without the images, how can we properly ascertain the injury? The rhetoric about the Red Sox waving a red flag on Graterol and a white flag for Verdugo leave me even more confounded. Let's be honest, their medical staff hasn't been so great as of late.. Your insistence on just ignoring the fact that there are other, VERIFIED, medical sources contradicting what you're saying isn't helping your case. Also, like he said, why not just lead with that? "Hey, I actually have a PhD and a bunch of experience with things like this so here and x and y reasons why this is bad". If you wait until you're chest deep in the argument and then essentially call everyone who disagrees with you an idiot because you hold some unverifiable status of authority, people are naturally not going to take what you say seriously. Also, you can have a PhD in something like history... |
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,962 
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Post by jimoh on Feb 17, 2020 7:00:44 GMT -5
Please don't use that language, don't start in. That just gets us into a cycle we'd prefer not to deal with. Thank you. Honestly, though, I feel like I am conversing with a bunch of 3rd graders on this site. I have a lot of experience with these type of fractures. I have a phD and am familiar with images. It can be a very serious injury, especially for a baseball player. Of all sports, an L5 fracture for baseball players is the most serious. You react to an admonition not to call people "fools" by saying that you feel like you are dealing with "third graders"? I too have a PhD and I have spent 35 years writing "this is a bad argument" or "this evidence does not support your point" on student papers, dissertations, and submissions of article manuscripts or book manuscripts to scholarly journals and university presses. I've evaluated scholarship for 40 tenure cases. Lots of people have PhDs. Many of them, like you, write poorly and make bad arguments. Luckily, most off them are smart enough not to call people fools or 3rd graders. PhDs who call people fools usually wind up in jobs that do not require a PhD. |
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Post by caseytins on Feb 17, 2020 8:10:30 GMT -5
Honestly, though, I feel like I am conversing with a bunch of 3rd graders on this site. I have a lot of experience with these type of fractures. I have a phD and am familiar with images. It can be a very serious injury, especially for a baseball player. Of all sports, an L5 fracture for baseball players is the most serious. You react to an admonition not to call people "fools" by saying that you feel like you are dealing with "third graders"? I too have a PhD and I have spent 35 years writing "this is a bad argument" or "this evidence does not support your point" on student papers, dissertations, and submissions of article manuscripts or book manuscripts to scholarly journals and university presses. I've evaluated scholarship for 40 tenure cases. Lots of people have PhDs. Many of them, like you, write poorly and make bad arguments. Luckily, most off them are smart enough not to call people fools or 3rd graders. PhDs who call people fools usually wind up in jobs that do not require a PhD. Luckily, that is not the case for me. I run my own business now. I basically help others that can't help themselves. My PhDs are actually in Anthropology and Psychology. I used to write actuarial equations for the government. I've written standardized test questions for the state of MN, I've worked as a chef, I've run a property management company, I'm a musician and songwriter, I run a pet care company. I am sorry that you are all so sensitive. |
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Post by chrisfromnc on Feb 17, 2020 8:24:17 GMT -5
My takeaway is that Alex Verdugo has a stress fracture which may or may not heal quickly.
And people have post graduate degrees.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 17, 2020 8:36:29 GMT -5
You react to an admonition not to call people "fools" by saying that you feel like you are dealing with "third graders"? I too have a PhD and I have spent 35 years writing "this is a bad argument" or "this evidence does not support your point" on student papers, dissertations, and submissions of article manuscripts or book manuscripts to scholarly journals and university presses. I've evaluated scholarship for 40 tenure cases. Lots of people have PhDs. Many of them, like you, write poorly and make bad arguments. Luckily, most off them are smart enough not to call people fools or 3rd graders. PhDs who call people fools usually wind up in jobs that do not require a PhD. Luckily, that is not the case for me. I run my own business now. I basically help others that can't help themselves. My PhDs are actually in Anthropology and Psychology. I used to write actuarial equations for the government. I've written standardized test questions for the state of MN, I've worked as a chef, I've run a property management company, I'm a musician and songwriter, I run a pet care company. I am sorry that you are all so sensitive. Now I'm dumbfounded again. I was assuming the PhD was in a related field since you mentioned it and that you have personal experience reading charts? I fail to see how a doctorate in anthropology and psychology can make you question someone with a PhD in the medical field? I mean, I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate someone with a PhD in medicine questioning your anthropology dissertation. |
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Feb 17, 2020 9:00:30 GMT -5
I also developed a stress fracture in my back from all the chest puffing in this thread.
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Post by mg050369 on Feb 17, 2020 9:05:51 GMT -5
For the love of God, unless you are an expert in the field or are the Red Sox team doctor referring to his particular chart, can we leave the medical evaluation to the experts? Although interesting, most appear to be 3rd hand accounts with limited association to the case at hand.
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Post by caseytins on Feb 17, 2020 9:24:39 GMT -5
Luckily, that is not the case for me. I run my own business now. I basically help others that can't help themselves. My PhDs are actually in Anthropology and Psychology. I used to write actuarial equations for the government. I've written standardized test questions for the state of MN, I've worked as a chef, I've run a property management company, I'm a musician and songwriter, I run a pet care company. I am sorry that you are all so sensitive. If you had mixed in a sociology class or two, you wouldn't have a bunch of people on the internet spelling out social norms for you. It is difficult living on the spectrum. Also, I've worked with doctors and have read scans in the past. If I could see the image, I would feel more comfortable. In the end, I am just glad that the team seems to be taking it ultra cautious with him. |
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Post by trajanacc on Feb 17, 2020 9:33:38 GMT -5
Love this Red Sox thread!
And for the record, I actually have three PhDs, in molecular biology, economics, and English. I memorized my multiplication tables before everyone else, won the 8th grade spelling bee, and solved Fermat’s last theorem while in college. I know the answer to any question you could ask. Also I’ve had back problems my whole life so I would say I know a thing or two about how to diagnose a stranger’s back injury. So yeah, I’d say I am wicked smart!
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 17, 2020 9:40:07 GMT -5
I have an associates in Networking and some certificates from Job Corps. Can I still comment on this thread/site?
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Feb 17, 2020 13:03:22 GMT -5
Ok. Haven't seen a thread like this in a while. Some entertaining posting.
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Post by manfred on Feb 17, 2020 13:05:58 GMT -5
Spring training can’t kick into high gear soon enough. Then we will get our answers to all the pressing questions instead of arguing over stuff we can’t know.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 17, 2020 13:30:41 GMT -5
I can't help but look at this situation as much more than a salary dump. Both Price and Betts had major value. Significant value. We had a team that might have contended this year. They hauled the truck up and dumped the load, at first for 2 injured players. When some of us raised the health issue early on we were criticized for it, and particularly raised the shoulder issue. Surprise, they do the medicals and found out they bought a used car with the milage odometer rolled back yet again. I like Redsox management but how many times do they have to make deals for injured players before they figure it out. They try to extend players for years with no success and then they are all over it after an injury ( Chris Sale, Schilling...etc ). And they get burned. Now twice again they do deals of major value, for 2 injured players. Keep the owners. Lose the rest of the player evaluation staff, or whoever is causing these instances of bad judgement. Not really. Mookie is going to the highest bidder after this season. How much more are you really asking for? Dodger stadium shouldn't be great for his swing. I don't expect him to suck, but if he has an .848 OPS and a 6.0 WAR, would that really be worth a top 5 prospect in baseball that some of you are expecting? David Price at 16 million is fair value for the pitcher he is now. With that said, if his special elbow ever decides to pop, that could be the end of his career. He's 34 now and it'll take him about 2 years to recover from that. He hasn't been completely healthy 2 of the last 3 seasons. They got January 2019 Baseball Prospectus' 16th best prospect who had a 3.0 his rookie season and MLBs 44th ranked prospect. I don't get why people think they got trash in return.
This idea that they're getting eviscerated for doing their job and reworked the trade after Graterol failed is infuriating. They thought he could be an ace. They saw the medicals and realized he's a bullpen arm. Because they checked his medicals, they nixed the original deal. That's why trades are always PENDING PHYSICAL. Another thing that's annoying as well, if he's such damaged goods and has no value. If he's such a fat guy with a blown out shoulder, why did the Dodgers acquire him? He still got traded. I actually like this deal better from the Dodgers perspective. If they're going for it in 2020 then a guy like Graterol is a fantastic get for them. I hope he has a huge year for them. Sorry to go off-topic (I know this is supposed to be a thread about academic credentialism), but... Yes. I think if the Sox were getting a highly-ranked prospect in this deal, people would be over the moon. Instead we're getting a former highly-ranked prospect... who has also demonstrated some success at the major league level. Which is even better! But it doesn't have the glitter and shine of a ~**ranking**~ so it seems less exciting or something. |
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Feb 17, 2020 13:50:42 GMT -5
I see that dripping sarcasm remains on this site. The first thing some of you think of is how you can put down the newbie. As if that is some sort of contribution. I come here maybe 4 times a year now rather than deal with it and here you guys are doing it again to each other above. I flagged the health issue immediately the other day, when both initial players were reported to be injured including one with a back injury and one with a recent shoulder issue, and was criticized for it. Then we see the medicals and it turned out to be valid concern with the pitcher and now we find out it was also a valid concern with the hitter involved. Shoulder issues are not trivial. Other teams are lined up to dump their flawed players on us at every opportunity and we buy it. I don't get why we keep buying it.
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