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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 5, 2020 9:02:01 GMT -5
To me it's obvious you have to go with what the doctors say. I hope it was unanimous among those three opinion options.
As good as it sounds on the surface that he doesn't need TJ surgery (yet), it's hard to be excited about his availability or if you're going to be able to rely on him.
If he's not 100% then maybe you get the subpar outings from him like we did last year. Yes, his FIP was quite good and the flashes of what make him great and unique were still there, but there were times he was lit up. Sale certainly didn't feel good about his season.
Or maybe he does pitch great for awhile and then suddenly....we'll always be holding our breath hoping that if he can get into a groove that the last pitch he just threw wasn't his last one before we're hearing about more elbow issues, etc.
Bottom line is that the Red Sox can no longer rely on Sale even if he doesn't need surgery (at least for now). Kind of reminds me when the Sox had Pedro and Saberhagen. Pedro gave the Sox a fighting chance with his dominance but if Saberhagen was injured they weren't going anywhere with just one reliable (albeit historically great)pitcher. It was really hard to rely on Saberhagen, but when he could pitch you could still see some of that old magic that made him so great when he was at his best, which could still be the case with Sale.
Or maybe we see Sale as much as we've seen Pedroia recently.
I get the sense this will linger and linger and linger until at some point this year it gets to the point that there's no other option other than TJ surgery and they will have gotten little or next to nothing out of him this year and will lose him entirely for 2021.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 5, 2020 9:52:55 GMT -5
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Post by Addam603 on Mar 5, 2020 9:55:11 GMT -5
That last point is key. If none of the three doctors suggested surgery, I will hold out a bit of hope.
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Post by aboynamedkimandrew on Mar 5, 2020 10:05:34 GMT -5
That last point is key. If none of the three doctors suggested surgery, I will hold out a bit of hope. If the first two doctors agreed that surgery isn't necessary, why did they need a third opinion?
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 5, 2020 10:16:17 GMT -5
It's a fair question. If two doctors tell me I need surgery I might seek a third opinion. It two, including the one who is the leader in the field, tell me I don't, why would I seek a third opinion? If the third had said "yes, I recommend surgery" would he have solicited two more opinions? This isn't my field of expertise so I'm not going to sit here and say he should get the surgery, but there's something off about that.
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Post by manfred on Mar 5, 2020 10:28:43 GMT -5
It's a fair question. If two doctors tell me I need surgery I might seek a third opinion. It two, including the one who is the leader in the field, tell me I don't, why would I seek a third opinion? If the third had said "yes, I recommend surgery" would he have solicited two more opinions? This isn't my field of expertise so I'm not going to sit here and say he should get the surgery, but there's something off about that. Only explanation I have is: Andrews said no surgery last time. The elbow is unchanged (so is his recommendation), but it still bothers Sale (so Andrews injection and rest cure doesn’t appear to have been fully successful). So maybe get another major doctor to see if he thinks the lingering pain is a greater cause of concern?
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Post by soxcentral on Mar 5, 2020 10:30:49 GMT -5
It's a fair question. If two doctors tell me I need surgery I might seek a third opinion. It two, including the one who is the leader in the field, tell me I don't, why would I seek a third opinion? If the third had said "yes, I recommend surgery" would he have solicited two more opinions? This isn't my field of expertise so I'm not going to sit here and say he should get the surgery, but there's something off about that. Only explanation I have is: Andrews said no surgery last time. The elbow is unchanged (so is his recommendation), but it still bothers Sale (so Andrews injection and rest cure doesn’t appear to have been fully successful). So maybe get another major doctor to see if he thinks the lingering pain is a greater cause of concern? That's what I was thinking, that Sale would want a different expert opinion other than the ones who gave a recommendation that haven't yet produced a solution.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 5, 2020 10:35:06 GMT -5
It's a fair question. If two doctors tell me I need surgery I might seek a third opinion. It two, including the one who is the leader in the field, tell me I don't, why would I seek a third opinion? If the third had said "yes, I recommend surgery" would he have solicited two more opinions? This isn't my field of expertise so I'm not going to sit here and say he should get the surgery, but there's something off about that. Only explanation I have is: Andrews said no surgery last time. The elbow is unchanged (so is his recommendation), but it still bothers Sale (so Andrews injection and rest cure doesn’t appear to have been fully successful). So maybe get another major doctor to see if he thinks the lingering pain is a greater cause of concern? This. ElAttrache is basically the number 2 elbow guy behind Andrews, so I get it.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 5, 2020 10:42:12 GMT -5
It's a fair question. If two doctors tell me I need surgery I might seek a third opinion. It two, including the one who is the leader in the field, tell me I don't, why would I seek a third opinion? If the third had said "yes, I recommend surgery" would he have solicited two more opinions? This isn't my field of expertise so I'm not going to sit here and say he should get the surgery, but there's something off about that. Only explanation I have is: Andrews said no surgery last time. The elbow is unchanged (so is his recommendation), but it still bothers Sale (so Andrews injection and rest cure doesn’t appear to have been fully successful). So maybe get another major doctor to see if he thinks the lingering pain is a greater cause of concern? That makes a lot of sense. But I guess it doesn't give me a whole lot more peace of mind--lingering elbow pain without additional damage to the UCL after significant rest also seems bad. Like, a strain is either an acute event or something that's from overuse, right? Rest didn't heal the strain, and it seemingly wasn't an acute event, so... what is up? Is his awkward delivery just putting more pressure on the muscles and ligaments as they age, leading to chronic pain? Like I know we're conditioned to think TJ surgery is the bad outcome because you miss so much time, but it sounds lot better than "my elbow hurts in the same way it did eight months ago despite the fact the problem isn't a ligament tear." EDIT: And to be clear, this isn't a "he should just get the surgery" type of thing - he should definitely not get a surgery that three doctors have told him he doesn't need.
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Post by soxcentral on Mar 5, 2020 11:05:14 GMT -5
Only explanation I have is: Andrews said no surgery last time. The elbow is unchanged (so is his recommendation), but it still bothers Sale (so Andrews injection and rest cure doesn’t appear to have been fully successful). So maybe get another major doctor to see if he thinks the lingering pain is a greater cause of concern? That makes a lot of sense. But I guess it doesn't give me a whole lot more peace of mind--lingering elbow pain without additional damage to the UCL after significant rest also seems bad. Like, a strain is either an acute event or something that's from overuse, right? Rest didn't heal the strain, and it seemingly wasn't an acute event, so... what is up? Is his awkward delivery just putting more pressure on the muscles and ligaments as they age, leading to chronic pain? Like I know we're conditioned to think TJ surgery is the bad outcome because you miss so much time, but it sounds lot better than "my elbow hurts in the same way it did eight months ago despite the fact the problem isn't a ligament tear." EDIT: And to be clear, this isn't a "he should just get the surgery" type of thing - he should definitely not get a surgery that three doctors have told him he doesn't need. Not having surgery 'at this time' doesn't mean that in one week when they re-assess that surgery doesn't become the answer then. I guess the only hope you can hold out for is that maybe he overthrew a little to try and catch up from being sick, or that being sick weakened him and a little rest might get the pain back to a more manageable level? But you're right, not a lot of logical answers left for how rest is going to solve this.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,961
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Post by cdj on Mar 5, 2020 11:13:02 GMT -5
I mean, they also could have wanted multiple opinions because he is quite literally their biggest investment and has had some arm issues in the past. Better to be safe than sorry with a $30 mill arm
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Post by manfred on Mar 5, 2020 11:17:32 GMT -5
Only explanation I have is: Andrews said no surgery last time. The elbow is unchanged (so is his recommendation), but it still bothers Sale (so Andrews injection and rest cure doesn’t appear to have been fully successful). So maybe get another major doctor to see if he thinks the lingering pain is a greater cause of concern? That makes a lot of sense. But I guess it doesn't give me a whole lot more peace of mind--lingering elbow pain without additional damage to the UCL after significant rest also seems bad. Like, a strain is either an acute event or something that's from overuse, right? Rest didn't heal the strain, and it seemingly wasn't an acute event, so... what is up? Is his awkward delivery just putting more pressure on the muscles and ligaments as they age, leading to chronic pain? Like I know we're conditioned to think TJ surgery is the bad outcome because you miss so much time, but it sounds lot better than "my elbow hurts in the same way it did eight months ago despite the fact the problem isn't a ligament tear." EDIT: And to be clear, this isn't a "he should just get the surgery" type of thing - he should definitely not get a surgery that three doctors have told him he doesn't need. I was thinking the same thing. In some ways this seems worse: not eligible for surgery but not healthy? So... what is the path forward? And flexor strain seems like the equivalent of “lower body injury” in hockey... a kind of wide-ranging category that can mean a lot. And.. they say they didn’t find “more” damage. What does that mean. Not stoked for Sale’s 2020.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 5, 2020 14:39:28 GMT -5
Has there ever been a happy ending to stories like this? Eight months of rest, an injection and still having issues, then bounces back not needing surgery? Can someone give me a little hope?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 5, 2020 15:37:44 GMT -5
Has there ever been a happy ending to stories like this? Eight months of rest, an injection and still having issues, then bounces back not needing surgery? Can someone give me a little hope? Price and Tanaka come to mind.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 5, 2020 15:54:55 GMT -5
Has there ever been a happy ending to stories like this? Eight months of rest, an injection and still having issues, then bounces back not needing surgery? Can someone give me a little hope? Price and Tanaka come to mind. I don't remember Price having issues after resting though. Like those guys were the hope before these recent issues, they just needed rest and down time. Sale had eight months and still has issues to the point he visited three Doctors.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 5, 2020 16:52:35 GMT -5
Price and Tanaka come to mind. I don't remember Price having issues after resting though. Like those guys were the hope before these recent issues, they just needed rest and down time. Sale had eight months and still has issues to the point he visited three Doctors. He didn't visit 3 doctors. They just sent his MRI to Andrews and ElAttrache for second and third opinions.
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Post by kevfc89 on Mar 5, 2020 17:51:16 GMT -5
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Post by manfred on Mar 5, 2020 18:05:33 GMT -5
Holy cow. I feel for the guy. I can’t imagine trying to pitch with the contract and the injury on my mind.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Mar 5, 2020 18:37:16 GMT -5
Has there ever been a happy ending to stories like this? Eight months of rest, an injection and still having issues, then bounces back not needing surgery? Can someone give me a little hope? Price and Tanaka come to mind. Believe it was Andrews himself who said that Price had some kind of "super" ligament in his elbow?
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Post by p23w on Mar 5, 2020 19:31:25 GMT -5
Ok, ok, ok. Bottom line what is the over/under in IP for Sale this year. We're looking at a .500 team (at best) if he can't go 150IP.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 5, 2020 21:31:28 GMT -5
Ok, ok, ok. Bottom line what is the over/under in IP for Sale this year. We're looking at a .500 team (at best) if he can't go 150IP. I'd be surprised if he surpassed 100 innings. I'd be a lot less surprised if he didn't pitch any innings at all, felt more pain upon ramping up and winds up needing TJ surgery after all, thus wiping out his 2021 season as well. This is a damn shame. Dombrowski understandably took a ton of heat for this move. He was gambling that 5 years $145 million was a lot more palatable than what he would have earned had he had another strong mostly healthy season in 2019 and become a free agent. The team doctors must have told him that Sale was healthy enough to make that gamble. With no front-line starters coming through the system, he must have figured they can't lose the rare ace that he was. It sucks because if there was ever a guy that you'd want to give the money to - it's Chris Sale. He is extremely honest, very accountable, and it's damn obvious that he is driven to succeed and cannot accept anything less. This is a guy who really, REALLY, cares and deserves better. I believe him when he says he feels awful that he hasn't earned his contract. He's acting like it's a personal failing when it's clearly not - it's an injury - certainly not his fault. When you see a guy care that much, you can't help but respect him and cheer for him to succeed. The worst part of this is the lingering doubt. I'd almost feel relieved if it became obvious that he needed to do it because then you could get it over with and take your chances that the surgery worked (as opposed to not doing it and nothing ever really improving) - again not rooting for TJS - just saying that if anybody can come back from that I would believe it would be Chris Sale - you know he'll do everything in his power. Damn shame - he's such an easy guy to root for.
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Post by blizzards39 on Mar 13, 2020 20:57:33 GMT -5
Obviously not high on the priority list, but today was Sales day to test his arm???
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Post by blizzards39 on Mar 18, 2020 23:03:43 GMT -5
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Mar 19, 2020 13:54:14 GMT -5
I can't read this article. Quick synopsis?
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Post by soxfanatic on Mar 19, 2020 16:08:52 GMT -5
I can't read this article. Quick synopsis? You don't wanna know
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