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Are the Red Sox trying to win this year?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 23, 2020 16:42:29 GMT -5
Any G.M. that puts together a Pitching Staff like Bloom has assembled this year is clearly & purposefully trying to have a losing season. When Bloom was hired, Chris Sale needed Tommy John surgery and he was told to get under the luxury tax. As it turned out, even if he wasn't, David Price opted out of the season anyways. So really, you want to blame Bloom when the two frontline starters weren't going to play anyways? The Red Sox want/need to get under the luxury tax. This is a stupid year anyways. It's upsetting about Betts getting an unexpected extension, but the offense is still fine without him. I mean, I'm guessing the players are going to go out there and try to win. I don't think the front office really cares about it this season. I think it comes down to what's "trying to win"? There's winning now, winning in the future, and the relationship between the two. This pitching staff is bad. No arguing that. What do you want Bloom to do though? Move prospects? Hell no. Guys got the disease spreading in a global pandemic. Another tore his UCL. Sometimes you wind up getting bitten by the bug. Bloom's clearly trying to fortify the roster without having to mortgage the future, and that's the tactic I want him to be using right now.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 23, 2020 17:30:44 GMT -5
Speaking of winning this year, it looks like MLB will be expanding the playoffs for the 2020 season only. It looks like more than half the teams, 16 to be exact, will make the playoffs this year. Three division winners with 5 wild cards in each league. So if the Sox manage to finish around .500 they will probably make the playoffs. We actually have a real chance of seeing a sub-.500 team make the playoffs and win the World Series in 2020! weei.radio.com/blogs/scott-mclaughlin/red-sox-playoff-chances-increase-with-expanded-postseason
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jul 23, 2020 17:50:36 GMT -5
When Bloom was hired, Chris Sale needed Tommy John surgery and he was told to get under the luxury tax. As it turned out, even if he wasn't, David Price opted out of the season anyways. So really, you want to blame Bloom when the two frontline starters weren't going to play anyways? The Red Sox want/need to get under the luxury tax. This is a stupid year anyways. It's upsetting about Betts getting an unexpected extension, but the offense is still fine without him. I mean, I'm guessing the players are going to go out there and try to win. I don't think the front office really cares about it this season. I think it comes down to what's "trying to win"? There's winning now, winning in the future, and the relationship between the two. This pitching staff is bad. No arguing that. What do you want Bloom to do though? Move prospects? Hell no. Guys got the disease spreading in a global pandemic. Another tore his UCL. Sometimes you wind up getting bitten by the bug. Bloom's clearly trying to fortify the roster without having to mortgage the future, and that's the tactic I want him to be using right now. I don’t conflate the Sox and Bloom. That is, he certainly is not accountable for the full mess. And I agree they should not mortgage the future. But right now it seems like the future is not great. They don’t seem to have great (or even good) minor league pitching; they did not get a pitcher for Betts/Price; they drafted a 2B (after getting a 2B as the big prospect for Betts). If they are going to turn the staff around, unfortunately, they are going to have to spend big on FAs, trade a big player, or both. As I said back in the Betts trade thread, if they trade Betts (check), they may as well trade other major pieces. It is exceedingly hard to see the Sox competing in a normal season in the JDM years, for example.
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Post by bluechip on Jul 23, 2020 21:58:50 GMT -5
Speaking of winning this year, it looks like MLB will be expanding the playoffs for the 2020 season only. It looks like more than half the teams, 16 to be exact, will make the playoffs this year. Three division winners with 5 wild cards in each league. So if the Sox manage to finish around .500 they will probably make the playoffs. We actually have a real chance of seeing a sub-.500 team make the playoffs and win the World Series in 2020! weei.radio.com/blogs/scott-mclaughlin/red-sox-playoff-chances-increase-with-expanded-postseasonYes. A .500 record likely makes the playoffs this year. Plus the shorter season, who knows what will happen...
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Post by incandenza on Jul 24, 2020 0:00:53 GMT -5
Well, the Sox now have a 65% chance of making the playoffs, per fangraphs, so, yeah, I think they're gonna go for it.
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Post by agastonguay13 on Jul 24, 2020 8:38:30 GMT -5
I think they are trying to win, which is unfortunate because they just can't with their dumpster fire of a pitching staff. I think if you're being realistic about the team you have, the length of the season, and the level of competition you'd have to go through to even make the playoffs, let alone take this team through them successfully. If/when that is the case, I'd rather see this team tank for a top 5(?)-10 draft pick. They desperately need some blue chip talent in this system, and this is a season where you have nearly infinite excuses built in as to why you can't compete (Sale out, Rodriguez with COVID and complications, a 4 month layoff being the cause of X player who underperforms struggles, etc...) End of the day, the chances of winning it all this season are slim to none, and my view on that scenario is that it sucks both ways to be in the middle of the pack. Last season the Red Sox didn't even make the playoffs, and then come draft season they picked 17th, not exactly a spot where you're going to have a large selection of blue chippers to consider. If you're not going to be great this season, be terrible.
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Post by mg050369 on Jul 24, 2020 8:54:02 GMT -5
Any G.M. that puts together a Pitching Staff like Bloom has assembled this year is clearly & purposefully trying to have a losing season. The team hires you instead of Bloom as the GM at the same time. You inherit the same situation and directive. Specifically, you must get under the cap and the inherit the same upcoming injuries (Sale TJS, ERod CV-19, Price still opts out even if he isn't traded, etc). What signings and/or trades do you make to significantly upgrade your staff? Note: You can't overrule ownership (ex: i would break the bank) and a time machine does not come with the position. Therefore you can't say I wouldn't have signed Price, Sale, Eovaldi, Pablo, HRam and Pedroia and instead would have inked Cole, Morton, traded for Montas, drafted Soroka and Paddack.
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Post by stevedillard on Jul 24, 2020 10:12:00 GMT -5
I think they are trying to win, which is unfortunate because they just can't with their dumpster fire of a pitching staff. I think if you're being realistic about the team you have, the length of the season, and the level of competition you'd have to go through to even make the playoffs, let alone take this team through them successfully. If/when that is the case, I'd rather see this team tank for a top 5(?)-10 draft pick. They desperately need some blue chip talent in this system, and this is a season where you have nearly infinite excuses built in as to why you can't compete (Sale out, Rodriguez with COVID and complications, a 4 month layoff being the cause of X player who underperforms struggles, etc...) End of the day, the chances of winning it all this season are slim to none, and my view on that scenario is that it sucks both ways to be in the middle of the pack. Last season the Red Sox didn't even make the playoffs, and then come draft season they picked 17th, not exactly a spot where you're going to have a large selection of blue chippers to consider. If you're not going to be great this season, be terrible. We'll know at the trade deadline, when they ship off Jackie Bradley Jr. for prospects. I think Bloom is clear eyed enough to know that making the playoffs this year is both unlikely, but also not that valuable. Seeing the dumpster fire of the pitching staff and its pipeline, Bloom must know this is a pretty solid tear down. Just jettisoning Betts is one prong of getting under the cap, but this is his chance to build a new core around Bogaerts and Devers (and Benintendi). There probably wont be another core guy through the system (maybe Casas/Verdungo), but guys like Downs and others are adding needed depth. Then, in 2021, with or after the new CBA and after the Covid financial impact is clearer, the Sox are well poised to grab an elite guy in his prime if the market has stabilized away from 13 year commitments -- a Soto, Acuna or Bellinger, or even the second group of guys like Tatis, Jimenez or Robles (ignoring pitchers, who are also on the market) -- from teams taht have wedged themselves into salary problems. Frankly, with either the existing CBA cap, or even a practical post-Covid finances cap, teams are going to be limited, and I suspect the market for these guys will be at or less than the Betts, previous market Harper/Trout sort of deals. That is a long way of saying that I suspect Bloom sees this as the perfect punt year, and rather than "going for it" to make the playoffs, he'll be a seller. With an eye toward building a team 2022-2028.
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Post by blizzards39 on Jul 24, 2020 11:14:18 GMT -5
It’s going to have to be like London all over again. 17-13. 12-8. Mind you I think we did loose both those games
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jul 24, 2020 11:21:19 GMT -5
It’s going to have to be like London all over again. 17-13. 12-8. Mind you I think we did loose both those games Winning a slugfest would be a better plan if you didn’t trade your best hitter.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Jul 24, 2020 11:51:04 GMT -5
It’s going to have to be like London all over again. 17-13. 12-8. Mind you I think we did loose both those games Winning a slugfest would be a better plan if you didn’t trade your best hitter. So your overall point pretty much stands, but I'd like to point out that Mookie was the team's 3rd best hitter by wRC+ last year and Devers nearly pushed him down to 4th.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 24, 2020 11:59:42 GMT -5
I think they are trying to win, which is unfortunate because they just can't with their dumpster fire of a pitching staff. I think if you're being realistic about the team you have, the length of the season, and the level of competition you'd have to go through to even make the playoffs, let alone take this team through them successfully. If/when that is the case, I'd rather see this team tank for a top 5(?)-10 draft pick. They desperately need some blue chip talent in this system, and this is a season where you have nearly infinite excuses built in as to why you can't compete (Sale out, Rodriguez with COVID and complications, a 4 month layoff being the cause of X player who underperforms struggles, etc...) End of the day, the chances of winning it all this season are slim to none, and my view on that scenario is that it sucks both ways to be in the middle of the pack. Last season the Red Sox didn't even make the playoffs, and then come draft season they picked 17th, not exactly a spot where you're going to have a large selection of blue chippers to consider. If you're not going to be great this season, be terrible. We'll know at the trade deadline, when they ship off Jackie Bradley Jr. for prospects. I think Bloom is clear eyed enough to know that making the playoffs this year is both unlikely, but also not that valuable. Seeing the dumpster fire of the pitching staff and its pipeline, Bloom must know this is a pretty solid tear down. Just jettisoning Betts is one prong of getting under the cap, but this is his chance to build a new core around Bogaerts and Devers (and Benintendi). There probably wont be another core guy through the system (maybe Casas/Verdungo), but guys like Downs and others are adding needed depth. Then, in 2021, with or after the new CBA and after the Covid financial impact is clearer, the Sox are well poised to grab an elite guy in his prime if the market has stabilized away from 13 year commitments -- a Soto, Acuna or Bellinger, or even the second group of guys like Tatis, Jimenez or Robles (ignoring pitchers, who are also on the market) -- from teams taht have wedged themselves into salary problems. Frankly, with either the existing CBA cap, or even a practical post-Covid finances cap, teams are going to be limited, and I suspect the market for these guys will be at or less than the Betts, previous market Harper/Trout sort of deals. That is a long way of saying that I suspect Bloom sees this as the perfect punt year, and rather than "going for it" to make the playoffs, he'll be a seller. With an eye toward building a team 2022-2028. I do think this is the perfect punt year. The pitching is awful. Purely awful. To construct a scenario where the Red Sox can "do damage" in the playoffs, you need a healthy E-Rod and from what I'm reading re: his covid 19 related complications, in my non-expert opinion he'd be better off sitting out the year. I wouldn't mess around with anything that can affect the heart. If guys like Weber, Godley, Perez, and Covey want to do a 1990 impersonation of Greg Harris, Tom Bolton, and Dana Kiecker for 60 games, fine, but the odds are really against it. And it's not like the bullpen is special or that the offense is that particularly deep to make up for their pitching deficiencies, I suspect that even with the expanded playoffs the Sox will be on the outside looking in. Honestly given where, they're at and in this situation, it really wouldn't bother me. This is the worst roster they've had in some time. A lot of these pitchers are never-will-be types. I say take their lumps, draft well, spend smartly, and proceed into the future. At this point I'm just glad there's baseball even if it doesn't turn out to be quality baseball.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 24, 2020 12:02:51 GMT -5
The problem with punting this year is we have no idea what the draft order will be next year - even if they finish the season, it's not certain it'd be reverse standings (although it almost certainly would, you'd figure). If they don't finish the year, it's not clear they'd use the standings from a 30-game sample or something like that to set the draft order.
Put a competitive team on the field and get into the playoffs, then go from there, imo.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jul 24, 2020 13:03:31 GMT -5
The problem with punting this year is we have no idea what the draft order will be next year - even if they finish the season, it's not certain it'd be reverse standings (although it almost certainly would, you'd figure). If they don't finish the year, it's not clear they'd use the standings from a 30-game sample or something like that to set the draft order. Put a competitive team on the field and get into the playoffs, then go from there, imo. I guess I don’t know what this means. The team they have constructed would need a miracle to win. So to field a competitive team, they have to upgrade. Should they? Or do they stand pat, hope for that miracle (and see if they can upgrade later)? That’s fine, and seems the most likely path. Or do you start planning to dump ASAP. That is my path. This team is not good, and there are no easy enough fixes that make it worth hanging on to most of their players. Figure X and Devers are pretty much the only everyday guys on the main roster I’d not be extremely open to selling whenever I could for the appropriate return. Maaaaybe ERod on the staff. I would hate to see them make any short-term moves for this season with this pitching.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 24, 2020 14:48:55 GMT -5
The problem with punting this year is we have no idea what the draft order will be next year - even if they finish the season, it's not certain it'd be reverse standings (although it almost certainly would, you'd figure). If they don't finish the year, it's not clear they'd use the standings from a 30-game sample or something like that to set the draft order. Put a competitive team on the field and get into the playoffs, then go from there, imo. thesame as always. At this point, I believe the draft order will stay the same as it always was. I know that to change the playoff format, it was something that had to be done before the first pitch of the season. I can't see how this would be different, the season has already started.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 24, 2020 15:07:58 GMT -5
The problem with punting this year is we have no idea what the draft order will be next year - even if they finish the season, it's not certain it'd be reverse standings (although it almost certainly would, you'd figure). If they don't finish the year, it's not clear they'd use the standings from a 30-game sample or something like that to set the draft order. Put a competitive team on the field and get into the playoffs, then go from there, imo. I guess I don’t know what this means. The team they have constructed would need a miracle to win. So to field a competitive team, they have to upgrade. Should they? Or do they stand pat, hope for that miracle (and see if they can upgrade later)? That’s fine, and seems the most likely path. Or do you start planning to dump ASAP. That is my path. This team is not good, and there are no easy enough fixes that make it worth hanging on to most of their players. Figure X and Devers are pretty much the only everyday guys on the main roster I’d not be extremely open to selling whenever I could for the appropriate return. Maaaaybe ERod on the staff. I would hate to see them make any short-term moves for this season with this pitching. There's a strong likelihood they're still going to have one of the top handful of offenses in the game, especially if they get good Benintendi and JBJ, and 16 teams are going to make the playoffs. This year, this is a competitive team. And again, yes the pitching staff sucks right now. It's going to look different in like 5 days, never mind in two weeks if the COVID guys get back. No, it won't be in the top half of staffs in baseball probably, but it's not like it's going to be historically bad for the whole year unless there's even more calamity than the bad luck they've already had.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 24, 2020 16:28:26 GMT -5
Normally, if I feel the team is deeply flawed I'd just say tank it, but this year? I don't even know. The short sample sizes could have Ryan Webber win a Cy Young. It's really a tremendous crapshoot. Especially with teams getting infected with Covid-19. The Yankees could look to be like a clear run away team until COVID-19 decemiates their roster. Mix that with the draft being even more of a crapshoot as high school and college kids haven't been playing which makes it even more likely the best pick in the draft could be a late 1st rounder or beyond. It just seems pointless to not try. It's also not like teams would give up much of value for, say, JD Martinez for 30 games if he planned to opt after the end of the season. Unless the Red Sox start off woefully bad, there's just no point in trying to tank.
Let's not forget, the 2019 Seattle Mariners who finished the season 68-94 started the year 13-2. At the end of May they were 18-15. That would have been more than half the season with a better than .500 record.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jul 24, 2020 18:28:44 GMT -5
Mix that with the draft being even more of a crapshoot as high school and college kids haven't been playing which makes it even more likely the best pick in the draft could be a late 1st rounder or beyond. It's also not like teams would give up much of value for, say, JD Martinez for 30 games if he planned to opt after the end of the season. Unless the Red Sox start off woefully bad, there's just no point in trying to tank. The 2020 HS and college seasons didn't happen but I think there's a good chance the 2021 HS and college seasons will be played. On you second point here, I thought the same thing until a couple of weeks ago. Now I'm not so sure. Teams that trade for a veteran at the July 31 deadline (conventional season) are looking for that player to help them go deep into the PS. Teams that trade for a veteran at this year's deadline will want the same thing. The prospect of getting one month, instead of two, out of a FA-to-be guy shouldn't make him a less attractive acquisition. I hope I'm right on this and we get the raking version of JBJ through the deadline. He could be a decent get for a contending team. We might get a top 80 prospect for him. Getting a return like that for him and for BWM, plus locking in a top 10 pick in next year's draft, would be immensely helpful to getting this team back to the top of the division once the payroll constraints start to ease.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 25, 2020 11:38:56 GMT -5
Yeah, fwiw amateur scouts are already back out, and showcases are happening.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 25, 2020 22:20:58 GMT -5
Arauz, Munoz, Covey, Gonsalves all appear to me to be the kind of freebee pickups you take on when you are rebuilding for the future. Veterans who used to be good are the kind that you go for when you are building for the current year.
There's a definite difference between DD and Bloom here.
With two more roster reductions over the next 30 days, coupled with the increased playoff teams, this could be a unique bonanza approach that won't be available at any other time.
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Post by trajanacc on Jul 26, 2020 16:19:04 GMT -5
Might be a bit premature for this, but if the Red Sox are out of it at the deadline, and are looking to be sellers, who are the most likely players to be shopped and what sort of return might they get from a competitive team?
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 26, 2020 16:23:11 GMT -5
Might be a bit premature for this, but if the Red Sox are out of it at the deadline, and are looking to be sellers, who are the most likely players to be shopped and what sort of return might they get from a competitive team? No idea what teams would value on a shortened season that could end abruptly. My guesses? JD Martinez (if indication he's going to opt out and get an unrealistic contract) JBJ (scorching hot right now and I believe in the last year?) Kevin Pillar Martin Perez (as if anyone would want him) Matt Barnes Brandon Workman Really, any reliever I mean, I could see Benintendi or Verdugo being moved if there's a young, promising pitcher to be had.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 26, 2020 16:53:28 GMT -5
They just traded for 5 years of Verdugo. He IS the promising young player. And based on your post, you might be interested in our 40-man page, where some of the things you were trying to recall are listed. soxprospects.com/40man.htm
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 27, 2020 20:26:20 GMT -5
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Post by dirtdog on Jul 27, 2020 22:00:24 GMT -5
Well, the Sox now have a 65% chance of making the playoffs, per fangraphs, so, yeah, I think they're gonna go for it. I think that might be slightly lower now.
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