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8/14-8/17 Red Sox @ Yankees Series Thread
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 18, 2020 9:01:40 GMT -5
Sorry for adding politics but Vazquez for President. Anyone object ? Isn't that the line the Yankees (fans) use when the Red Sox are winning and they're not? "We have 27 championship rings and it would take you 2 centuries to catch up". You have Vazquez saying, "I like my one ring, the ring you don't have". All I can say is that I like the odds of the Yankees getting the next ring better than that of the Red Sox unless Bloom has the perfect 2013 storm ahead. Hard to imagine capturing that lightning in a bottle again. And I like your moniker no matter what happens in between.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 18, 2020 10:39:28 GMT -5
Isn't that the line the Yankees (fans) use when the Red Sox are winning and they're not? "We have 27 championship rings and it would take you 2 centuries to catch up". You have Vazquez saying, "I like my one ring, the ring you don't have". All I can say is that I like the odds of the Yankees getting the next ring better than that of the Red Sox unless Bloom has the perfect 2013 storm ahead. Hard to imagine capturing that lightning in a bottle again. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is possible. A few years ago The Yankees were an elderly team, with almost no farm system and Cashman made foundational trades that both helped the major league team and immediately injected young talent into their system. I watched all of these games, and they were painful. I want to believe in Bloom. I want to see an organization that is balanced with a continuous influx of young talent to augment their major league staff. I want to see them draft a starting pitcher and actually develop them, something they haven't done since Bucholz/Lester really. Honestly, I want to see a bigger shake up in their scouting/coaching/baseball ops structures. I had hoped we would see larger scale changes when Bloom came on. Roenicke is a one and done manager. It may not be his fault, but he's not going to last because not only does the team look bad, they look lifeless. The only thing that justifies this period of disappointment is the long term stability of the organization across the board, if I have to endure a 60 game suck-fest, I hope they pull off some trades that make the future much brighter than it currently looks. The thing about the Yankees though is that they never had to hit rock bottom to rebuild, which is amazing. They tried foolishly throwing money recklessly at the problem in 2014, but it's when Cashman started making those wipeout trades that they started to become what they've become. He was kind of playing out of Theo's 2003 - 2004 play book. The last time the Yankees actually hit rock bottom was in 1990 and they actually blew their big draft pick - well it was more like Brien Taylor blew it when he got into a bar fight and got injured. But with George Steinbrenner suspended Gene Michael was able to build the Yankees from the ground up without interference. Bloom is totally going to have to build the Sox from the ground up. I see the - if you squint hard enough - you get Sale and E-Rod healthy, add a couple of pitchers, and voila, you're back in business. I guess I just don't see how you can count on Sale coming back next July in vintage Sale fashion and E-Rod pitching with no complications and I don't see Bloom as one to hand out long-term deals on pitchers through free agency. It can happen. I won't dismiss. But I think Bloom does a complete tear down.
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Post by manfred on Aug 18, 2020 10:47:13 GMT -5
The thing about the Yankees though is that they never had to hit rock bottom to rebuild, which is amazing. They tried foolishly throwing money recklessly at the problem in 2014, but it's when Cashman started making those wipeout trades that they started to become what they've become. He was kind of playing out of Theo's 2003 - 2004 play book. The last time the Yankees actually hit rock bottom was in 1990 and they actually blew their big draft pick - well it was more like Brien Taylor blew it when he got into a bar fight and got injured. But with George Steinbrenner suspended Gene Michael was able to build the Yankees from the ground up without interference. Bloom is totally going to have to build the Sox from the ground up. I see the - if you squint hard enough - you get Sale and E-Rod healthy, add a couple of pitchers, and voila, you're back in business. I guess I just don't see how you can count on Sale coming back next July in vintage Sale fashion and E-Rod pitching with no complications and I don't see Bloom as one to hand out long-term deals on pitchers through free agency. It can happen. I won't dismiss. But I think Bloom does a complete tear down. The other thing — no coincidence — they did? They kept their homegrown stars. Posada, Jeter, Bernie, Mo, Pettitte (minus 3 years). There is something to be said for not having to deal with chaos every three years.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 18, 2020 10:53:37 GMT -5
The thing about the Yankees though is that they never had to hit rock bottom to rebuild, which is amazing. They tried foolishly throwing money recklessly at the problem in 2014, but it's when Cashman started making those wipeout trades that they started to become what they've become. He was kind of playing out of Theo's 2003 - 2004 play book. The last time the Yankees actually hit rock bottom was in 1990 and they actually blew their big draft pick - well it was more like Brien Taylor blew it when he got into a bar fight and got injured. But with George Steinbrenner suspended Gene Michael was able to build the Yankees from the ground up without interference. Bloom is totally going to have to build the Sox from the ground up. I see the - if you squint hard enough - you get Sale and E-Rod healthy, add a couple of pitchers, and voila, you're back in business. I guess I just don't see how you can count on Sale coming back next July in vintage Sale fashion and E-Rod pitching with no complications and I don't see Bloom as one to hand out long-term deals on pitchers through free agency. It can happen. I won't dismiss. But I think Bloom does a complete tear down. The other thing — no coincidence — they did? They kept their homegrown stars. Posada, Jeter, Bernie, Mo, Pettitte (minus 3 years). There is something to be said for not having to deal with chaos every three years. If Steinbrenner hadn't been suspended I guarantee you he would have had a bunch of those guys traded. He was not a patient man and when he meddled he totally screwed up that team. With his hands being off Michael was able to let them them establish themselves. And yes, the Yankees didn't let their stars get away. You can argue they kept them too long. Bernie did calcify. Jeter was a shell of himself. Somehow Posada and Pettite aged reasonably well although allowing Pettite to go to Houston in 04 cost the Yankees the pennant. Rivera - well he never aged. He'd probably still be the best closer in baseball if he were still pitching.
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Post by manfred on Aug 18, 2020 10:58:15 GMT -5
The other thing — no coincidence — they did? They kept their homegrown stars. Posada, Jeter, Bernie, Mo, Pettitte (minus 3 years). There is something to be said for not having to deal with chaos every three years. If Steinbrenner hadn't been suspended I guarantee you he would have had a bunch of those guys traded. He was not a patient man and when he meddled he totally screwed up that team. With his hands being off Michael was able to let them them establish themselves. And yes, the Yankees didn't let their stars get away. You can argue they kept them too long. Bernie did calcify. Jeter was a shell of himself. Somehow Posada and Pettite aged reasonably well although allowing Pettite to go to Houston in 04 cost the Yankees the pennant. Rivera - well he never aged. He'd probably still be the best closer in baseball if he were still pitching. I don’t look at it as keeping them too long. They should have retired. Or sat. But letting them go is sad. Like watching Brett Favre on the Jets. But... there is a reason the Yankees have a mystique no other team has. The Sox have Ted Williams, Yaz, and Rice. Otherwise, overwhelmingly their relationships with their greats has soured too early. The Yankees are like a blood in, blood out gang. And that has worked better for them than it has for us.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 18, 2020 11:08:11 GMT -5
If Steinbrenner hadn't been suspended I guarantee you he would have had a bunch of those guys traded. He was not a patient man and when he meddled he totally screwed up that team. With his hands being off Michael was able to let them them establish themselves. And yes, the Yankees didn't let their stars get away. You can argue they kept them too long. Bernie did calcify. Jeter was a shell of himself. Somehow Posada and Pettite aged reasonably well although allowing Pettite to go to Houston in 04 cost the Yankees the pennant. Rivera - well he never aged. He'd probably still be the best closer in baseball if he were still pitching. I don’t look at it as keeping them too long. They should have retired. Or sat. But letting them go is sad. Like watching Brett Favre on the Jets. But... there is a reason the Yankees have a mystique no other team has. The Sox have Ted Williams, Yaz, and Rice. Otherwise, overwhelmingly their relationships with their greats has soured too early. The Yankees are like a blood in, blood out gang. And that has worked better for them than it has for us. Add Ortiz, Pedroia, Wakefield and Varitek to that list. But yes, what Ortiz said in his book always stuck with me. The Sox FO has always been more eager to lavish huge $ on other teams' free agents (Crawford, Gonzalez, and Lackey come quickly to mind), but hesitate when it comes to their own free agents. They want their players to take hometown discounts to stay, and Ortiz, Pedroia, and Wakefield took those discounts. Of course Tek, Wake, Ortiz, and Pedroia were extremely loyal and the Sox were able to exploit Ortiz being a DH to keep his value down, so they never had to pay top $ for his top production. Betts wasn't giving them a hometown discount. I do get where you're coming from. It was hard watching Fisk, Lynn, Evans, Clemens, Hurst, Boggs, Vaughn, and Mookie leave. Nomar was tough, too but after all that happened I was totally prepared for that one.
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shagworthy
Veteran
My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,431
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Post by shagworthy on Aug 18, 2020 11:23:18 GMT -5
I don’t look at it as keeping them too long. They should have retired. Or sat. But letting them go is sad. Like watching Brett Favre on the Jets. But... there is a reason the Yankees have a mystique no other team has. The Sox have Ted Williams, Yaz, and Rice. Otherwise, overwhelmingly their relationships with their greats has soured too early. The Yankees are like a blood in, blood out gang. And that has worked better for them than it has for us. Add Ortiz, Pedroia, Wakefield and Varitek to that list. But yes, what Ortiz said in his book always stuck with me. The Sox FO has always been more eager to lavish huge $ on other teams' free agents (Crawford, Gonzalez, and Lackey come quickly to mind), but hesitate when it comes to their own free agents. They want their players to take hometown discounts to stay, and Ortiz, Pedroia, and Wakefield took those discounts. Of course Tek, Wake, Ortiz, and Pedroia were extremely loyal and the Sox were able to exploit Ortiz being a DH to keep his value down, so they never had to pay top $ for his top production. Betts wasn't giving them a hometown discount. I do get where you're coming from. It was hard watching Fisk, Lynn, Evans, Clemens, Hurst, Boggs, Vaughn, and Mookie leave. Nomar was tough, too but after all that happened I was totally prepared for that one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Watching Boggs on the Yankees was one of the most painful moments of my life. Seeing Evans run out his final year in Baltimore was equally gut wrenching, they got lucky with both Vaughn and Nomar because it seemed like they cut the cord at the right time. Ortiz is exactly right though, this Sox ownership always covets their neighbors wife. They are a disingenuous lot which sometimes makes it hard to like them, and I imagine it's the reason why they seem to have to always over pay to get guys here. It's an odd position to be in, I was trying to explain to my wife what being a Sox fan is like(She doesn't do sports). Up until 04, my existence as a fan was one of existential pain and predictable disappointment. I was 8 years old in 86, and my parents let us stay up to watch that world series, and when the ball went through Buckner's legs, we all went numb. The owners do meddle too much for my liking, specifically Warner who is a snake oil salesman, every time I see his face I harken back to my history books from High School, with the cartoon character of the Carpetbagger after the Civil War in the U.S. South. But they've given us 4 more championships than I ever expected in my lifetime.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 18, 2020 18:19:03 GMT -5
I did know this was a bad lineup, though I was wrong HOW it would be bad. I certainly didn’t think Devers would be BAD. I did think there was a huge chance he’d come to earth. Early in a career, there is a lot of adjusting, counter adjusting. I did think that of all players in the majors, JDM was most likely to be bothered by the protocols. But look: I figured Moreland has to hit a wall at some point. And his peak is... ok. He is off to a hot start. We’ve seen that before. But he is also fragile. I figured 2B would suck. Check. I figured CVaz would not be as good as last year. I doubt he’ll ever have that good a year again. Remember when Leon roped? Xander would be... and largely is.. Xander. And I figured the outfield would suck. Did I expect Benny to be one of the worst players since half-game tee ball kids? Nope. But he was not great last year, sub 100 OPS+ and worse in the second half. JBJ is an established bad hitter. Pillar has been better than his career offense. Didn’t expect JDM to suck, but did expect him to be a bit wasted. You can’t drive guys in if there are not people to drive in. So... in essence, I did expect this lineup to be bad, and I figured that based on past performance, not underperformance. LF, CF, and 2B were all under 100 OPS+ last year. Moreland was... ok, but at 1B, an uninspiring 111 OPS+. Verdugo has been BETTER than expected. So that is 5. CVaz... about exactly his career averages. Career OPS+? 81. This season 81. I think he CAN be better. I don’t think we should COUNT on it. That is 6. Devers, JDM, X. Yes, their best players. But it may be that too much is asked of them. Last thing: there is also a composition issue. Their leading off has been terrible, 1 and 2. In the past the heart had regular set up. I didn’t think they had that, either. Mookie scored 135 times last year, 129 the year before. He set the plate. Duran needs to develop fast. I believe you think you did know (referring to your comment in bold). I have no doubt about that. But nearly everything you say here points to you didn't. I think what's happened is that you've let the Mookie Betts issue cloud your pov on management on everything. I get the feeling that once Mookie was traded you gave up and just now look to blame everything on management. Even what you are saying here along with past comments such as the ones with Beni -- and then overall thinking the lineup wasn't going to be very good-- is just covered by the fact you are still upset about Mookie. For example here is what you said is what you said about Beni -- "I have more faith in Beni. He’s shown he can be a really good player, and as bad as he has been, he is four singles from Verdugo. For as bad as Beni has hit, he still leads the league in walks. That is not nothing." So you said this earlier in the season. Now one of your last posts to me you put Beni in the same category as JBJ referring to him as not very good (yet you say above you have faith in him) and implying the Sox should have known. Yet in the same post you said you deliberately kept Beni off the "top to bottom list" in which players you said only two players underachieved (not Beni.). -- So you have faith in Beni in one post, while you didn't include him on the list of players who didn't perform in another post, yet in that same post you classify him in the JBJ category as "not very good?" And why you didn't seem to think preseason that the addition of Pillar should help JBJ in which Sox would platoon them- you are trying to say you KNEW JBJ would then have his worst hitting year since 2014? It's not a little less as a hitter as you are trying to represent. It's JBJ's next worst OPS since 2014 - he is 130 points lower than his next worse season since 2014. To further this and imo most important other than Beni -- the kicker is imo-- that you are saying you didn't expect much out of Verdugo. You mean you couldn't fathom his being a number 5 or 6 hitter in the lineup and being "pretty good" at it? Why would you think then the Red Sox traded for him? They traded to get him so they can get a bum? What this tells me is that you just didn’t' want to accept the trade and just "closed down" on any positives.
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Post by manfred on Aug 18, 2020 18:43:28 GMT -5
I did know this was a bad lineup, though I was wrong HOW it would be bad. I certainly didn’t think Devers would be BAD. I did think there was a huge chance he’d come to earth. Early in a career, there is a lot of adjusting, counter adjusting. I did think that of all players in the majors, JDM was most likely to be bothered by the protocols. But look: I figured Moreland has to hit a wall at some point. And his peak is... ok. He is off to a hot start. We’ve seen that before. But he is also fragile. I figured 2B would suck. Check. I figured CVaz would not be as good as last year. I doubt he’ll ever have that good a year again. Remember when Leon roped? Xander would be... and largely is.. Xander. And I figured the outfield would suck. Did I expect Benny to be one of the worst players since half-game tee ball kids? Nope. But he was not great last year, sub 100 OPS+ and worse in the second half. JBJ is an established bad hitter. Pillar has been better than his career offense. Didn’t expect JDM to suck, but did expect him to be a bit wasted. You can’t drive guys in if there are not people to drive in. So... in essence, I did expect this lineup to be bad, and I figured that based on past performance, not underperformance. LF, CF, and 2B were all under 100 OPS+ last year. Moreland was... ok, but at 1B, an uninspiring 111 OPS+. Verdugo has been BETTER than expected. So that is 5. CVaz... about exactly his career averages. Career OPS+? 81. This season 81. I think he CAN be better. I don’t think we should COUNT on it. That is 6. Devers, JDM, X. Yes, their best players. But it may be that too much is asked of them. Last thing: there is also a composition issue. Their leading off has been terrible, 1 and 2. In the past the heart had regular set up. I didn’t think they had that, either. Mookie scored 135 times last year, 129 the year before. He set the plate. Duran needs to develop fast. I believe you think you did know (referring to your comment in bold). I have no doubt about that. But nearly everything you say here points to you didn't. I think what's happened is that you've let the Mookie Betts issue cloud your pov on management on everything. I get the feeling that once Mookie was traded you gave up and just now look to blame everything on management. Even what you are saying here along with past comments such as the ones with Beni -- and then overall thinking the lineup wasn't going to be very good-- is just covered by the fact you are still upset about Mookie. For example here is what you said is what you said about Beni -- "I have more faith in Beni. He’s shown he can be a really good player, and as bad as he has been, he is four singles from Verdugo. For as bad as Beni has hit, he still leads the league in walks. That is not nothing." So you said this earlier in the season. Now one of your last posts to me you put Beni in the same category as JBJ referring to him as not very good (yet you say above you have faith in him) and implying the Sox should have known. Yet in the same post you said you deliberately kept Beni off the "top to bottom list" in which players you said only two players underachieved (not Beni.). -- So you have faith in Beni in one post, while you didn't include him on the list of players who didn't perform in another post, yet in that same post you classify him in the JBJ category as "not very good?" And why you didn't seem to think preseason that the addition of Pillar should help JBJ in which Sox would platoon them- you are trying to say you KNEW JBJ would then have his worst hitting year since 2014? It's not a little less as a hitter as you are trying to represent. It's JBJ's next worst OPS since 2014 - he is 130 points lower than his next worse season since 2014. To further this and imo most important other than Beni -- the kicker is imo-- that you are saying you didn't expect much out of Verdugo. You mean you couldn't fathom his being a number 5 or 6 hitter in the lineup and being "pretty good" at it? Why would you think then the Red Sox traded for him? They traded to get him so they can get a bum? What this tells me is that you just didn’t' want to accept the trade and just "closed down" on any positives. You did not even bold the whole sentence. I did not think it would be bad THIS WAY. But as I did say, if you plug in last year’s JBJ for this year’s, same with Beni, it does not move the needle. So I admit I did not think some of these guys would be epically bad, but I thought the totality was not good. On the Beni thing... first, notice that is a RELATIVE statement. I have more faith in him than Verdugo. I do, actually think Beni can still be good. He was not so good last year, and I’m not sure he’ll ever be so good he drives an offense. My hope is he’s a nice player. Lastly: as I’ve said there is a composition problem. Who sets the table? The 1/2 slots gave been brutal. I’d love to see a comparison of this season last season how often the meat of our lineup comes up with empty bases and/or two outs. But Mookie created a lot of stress for pitchers and helped the guys behind him. Verdugo, whatever else, doesn’t do that. Will he? Maybe. But with a diminished or on-goingly meh 1-2 and 7-9, 3-6 (in which I put Verdugo, assuming he’d be in there) can only do so much. Let me turn it around: did you expect Devers to repeat last season? CVaz? I think that would be greedy. Did you expect Verdugo to he 1/2 a Mookie? I did not. And he is not. Did you expect JBJ to be above 100 OPS+? Why would you? Did you expect various pickups to be good at 2B? Optimistic. Do you not see Moreland as slowing down? Or... even if he’s as good as ever... guy has broken 2 WAR once in his career. He’s a filler. I don’t think it is crazy to see this as a bad lineup. How much, even running on all cylinders can you expect of Xander and JDM? Rely on Devers, who is still learning?
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Post by soxjim on Aug 19, 2020 0:57:56 GMT -5
You did not even bold the whole sentence. I did not think it would be bad THIS WAY. But as I did say, if you plug in last year’s JBJ for this year’s, same with Beni, it does not move the needle. So I admit I did not think some of these guys would be epically bad, but I thought the totality was not good. On the Beni thing... first, notice that is a RELATIVE statement. I have more faith in him than Verdugo. I do, actually think Beni can still be good. He was not so good last year, and I’m not sure he’ll ever be so good he drives an offense. My hope is he’s a nice player. Lastly: as I’ve said there is a composition problem. Who sets the table? The 1/2 slots gave been brutal. I’d love to see a comparison of this season last season how often the meat of our lineup comes up with empty bases and/or two outs. But Mookie created a lot of stress for pitchers and helped the guys behind him. Verdugo, whatever else, doesn’t do that. Will he? Maybe. But with a diminished or on-goingly meh 1-2 and 7-9, 3-6 (in which I put Verdugo, assuming he’d be in there) can only do so much. Let me turn it around: did you expect Devers to repeat last season? CVaz? I think that would be greedy. Did you expect Verdugo to he 1/2 a Mookie? I did not. And he is not. Did you expect JBJ to be above 100 OPS+? Why would you? Did you expect various pickups to be good at 2B? Optimistic. Do you not see Moreland as slowing down? Or... even if he’s as good as ever... guy has broken 2 WAR once in his career. He’s a filler. I don’t think it is crazy to see this as a bad lineup. How much, even running on all cylinders can you expect of Xander and JDM? Rely on Devers, who is still learning? I used the whole sentence, didn't I? Or I caught the meaning that you seem to be agreeing with that Beni is a nice player. Or maybe you don't? Do we agree he should be performing as a nice player? First I'd like to get to the point of my 1st reply to you when you said that to paraphrase "Top to bottom only two players have under-performed." My reply had nothing to do with "move-the-needle." You clearly said "top-to-bottom." When you mention "bottom" of the order you're also including them in your numbers when you said only 2, aren't you? If you are to do that-- then what you're saying is a JBJ .580 OPS is the same as a .720 OPS? So if you agree that a .580 OPS is not the same as a .720 OPS - then you agree with me that there are more players than just 2 that have under-performed, correct? I'm specifically disputing your initial point that only two players have regressed. For example you are calling Beni "a nice player, right?" Well he certainly didn't play "nice," right? So regardless if he "moves the needle" - a subjective term-- he did regress greatly, didn't he? If you didn't mean to include players other than Devers, JDM and maybe Xander- then why did you say "top-to-bottom?" Beni and JBJ are seriously under-performing. If you aren't going to include them then why would you say "top-to-bottom?" As for my predictions I just thought they would be pretty good hitting. And frankly other than the occasional poster who is just always negative or complaining-- I really didn't read much negative at all about their hitting before the season started. Only that it was still projected to be pretty good. For example below is a link for league averages. And below that to answer your question - is what I would think conservative of Devers in terms of projection. www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/bat.shtmlwww.rotochamp.com/Baseball/Player.aspx?MLBAMID=646240And each player I can load up into the above link and here would be the numbers for each- Devers - OPS 850-904, Beni- 780-813, JDM 912-978, Xander 850-902, Verdugo-780-850, Moreland 740-790, Chavis 740-790, JBJ 729-766, Pillar 720-745, and Vaz 717-736. And ofc the 2nd baseman would be awful. So I'm looking up some stats and projection numbers to sort of back-up mostly what I've heard to start the season. Plus I provided stats to you when you said only 2 players top-to-bottom have under-performed that showed more than 2 actually under-performed. The above numbers I assume are projected above league average. So how can you say “you knew?” Because I think overall these numbers - and including the poor 2nd baseman,- would still show to be above average. What numbers are using or link? For example Beni hit above league-average last year in all the major categories last year. Yet you’re saying “I still think Beni can be good.” Since when is above average in all the hitting categories “not good?”
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Post by manfred on Aug 19, 2020 8:43:09 GMT -5
You did not even bold the whole sentence. I did not think it would be bad THIS WAY. But as I did say, if you plug in last year’s JBJ for this year’s, same with Beni, it does not move the needle. So I admit I did not think some of these guys would be epically bad, but I thought the totality was not good. On the Beni thing... first, notice that is a RELATIVE statement. I have more faith in him than Verdugo. I do, actually think Beni can still be good. He was not so good last year, and I’m not sure he’ll ever be so good he drives an offense. My hope is he’s a nice player. Lastly: as I’ve said there is a composition problem. Who sets the table? The 1/2 slots gave been brutal. I’d love to see a comparison of this season last season how often the meat of our lineup comes up with empty bases and/or two outs. But Mookie created a lot of stress for pitchers and helped the guys behind him. Verdugo, whatever else, doesn’t do that. Will he? Maybe. But with a diminished or on-goingly meh 1-2 and 7-9, 3-6 (in which I put Verdugo, assuming he’d be in there) can only do so much. Let me turn it around: did you expect Devers to repeat last season? CVaz? I think that would be greedy. Did you expect Verdugo to he 1/2 a Mookie? I did not. And he is not. Did you expect JBJ to be above 100 OPS+? Why would you? Did you expect various pickups to be good at 2B? Optimistic. Do you not see Moreland as slowing down? Or... even if he’s as good as ever... guy has broken 2 WAR once in his career. He’s a filler. I don’t think it is crazy to see this as a bad lineup. How much, even running on all cylinders can you expect of Xander and JDM? Rely on Devers, who is still learning? I used the whole sentence, didn't I? Or I caught the meaning that you seem to be agreeing with that Beni is a nice player. Or maybe you don't? Do we agree he should be performing as a nice player? First I'd like to get to the point of my 1st reply to you when you said that to paraphrase "Top to bottom only two players have under-performed." My reply had nothing to do with "move-the-needle." You clearly said "top-to-bottom." When you mention "bottom" of the order you're also including them in your numbers when you said only 2, aren't you? If you are to do that-- then what you're saying is a JBJ .580 OPS is the same as a .720 OPS? So if you agree that a .580 OPS is not the same as a .720 OPS - then you agree with me that there are more players than just 2 that have under-performed, correct? I'm specifically disputing your initial point that only two players have regressed. For example you are calling Beni "a nice player, right?" Well he certainly didn't play "nice," right? So regardless if he "moves the needle" - a subjective term-- he did regress greatly, didn't he? If you didn't mean to include players other than Devers, JDM and maybe Xander- then why did you say "top-to-bottom?" Beni and JBJ are seriously under-performing. If you aren't going to include them then why would you say "top-to-bottom?" As for my predictions I just thought they would be pretty good hitting. And frankly other than the occasional poster who is just always negative or complaining-- I really didn't read much negative at all about their hitting before the season started. Only that it was still projected to be pretty good. For example below is a link for league averages. And below that to answer your question - is what I would think conservative of Devers in terms of projection. www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/bat.shtmlwww.rotochamp.com/Baseball/Player.aspx?MLBAMID=646240And each player I can load up into the above link and here would be the numbers for each- Devers - OPS 850-904, Beni- 780-813, JDM 912-978, Xander 850-902, Verdugo-780-850, Moreland 740-790, Chavis 740-790, JBJ 729-766, Pillar 720-745, and Vaz 717-736. And ofc the 2nd baseman would be awful. So I'm looking up some stats and projection numbers to sort of back-up mostly what I've heard to start the season. Plus I provided stats to you when you said only 2 players top-to-bottom have under-performed that showed more than 2 actually under-performed. The above numbers I assume are projected above league average. So how can you say “you knew?” Because I think overall these numbers - and including the poor 2nd baseman,- would still show to be above average. What numbers are using or link? For example Beni hit above league-average last year in all the major categories last year. Yet you’re saying “I still think Beni can be good.” Since when is above average in all the hitting categories “not good?” I stand corrected. Thank you for helping me with what I only thought I thought. I realize now that my belief that this team is bad was mere delusion.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 19, 2020 17:56:11 GMT -5
I stand corrected. Thank you for helping me with what I only thought I thought. I realize now that my belief that this team is bad was mere delusion. You know I used to hear sometimes on the radio that whenever a LeBron James led-team lost they'd claim it was because LeBron James stinks. So whenever his team lost they could point to a missed shot or a turnover-- they were right too?
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Post by manfred on Aug 19, 2020 18:04:55 GMT -5
I stand corrected. Thank you for helping me with what I only thought I thought. I realize now that my belief that this team is bad was mere delusion. You know I used to hear sometimes on the radio that whenever a LeBron James led-team lost they'd claim it was because LeBron James stinks. So whenever hid team lost they could point to a missed shot or a turnover-- they were right too? Who missed the free throw in this scenario? It is not the clearest analogy.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 19, 2020 19:00:22 GMT -5
You know I used to hear sometimes on the radio that whenever a LeBron James led-team lost they'd claim it was because LeBron James stinks. So whenever hid team lost they could point to a missed shot or a turnover-- they were right too? Who missed the free throw in this scenario? It is not the clearest analogy. Some people hate LeBron James the same way you hate the red Sox management. So while they will point to any missed free throw, any missed shot, his man scores etc - -- you blame Red Sox management for everything as well because you hated what they did with Mookie. So the batting lineup which I pointed out - where are you coming from that you knew it wasn't any good? I don't see much of what you've said that I agree with. So I ask how could you not include Beni on your list of players who under-performed -- you speak of "moving the needle" but don't address your initial point. JBJ is hitting an OPS of .580 - he hasn't hit that low since 2014 yet it's the same thing- you don't address the comment you initially made- you speak of "move the needle." But "move the needle" wasn't your initial point. It was "top=-to-bottom." So you're like the one who always complains about LeBron. You're going to pick at anything you can to attack management. And I feel it's because it's due to Mookie. Well whatever. You can reply last/ have last word-I'm done with this. I am disgusted with this team too so for that I share some of your disgust.
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