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8/14-8/17 Red Sox @ Yankees Series Thread
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Post by cba82 on Aug 15, 2020 8:08:16 GMT -5
“I feel badly for Ron Roenicke” — Not me. Too many questionable decisions. I’m hoping he’s one and done, and that Cora is back in the dugout next year.
If this were a 162 game season, the Red Sox would be on pace to lose 113 games.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 15, 2020 8:13:38 GMT -5
The other reason I have a hard time rooting for draft position is that there just isn't that big a payoff. It's not like the NFL or NBA drafts where the #1 pick is a sure thing. Here are the #1 picks going back from 2015: 2015: Dansby Swanson 2014: Brady Aiken 2013: Mark Appel 2012: Carlos Correa 2011: Gerrit Cole 2010: Bryce Harper 2009: Stephen Strasburg 2008: Tim Beckham 2007: David Price 2006: Luke Hochevar 2005: Justin Upton 2004: Matt Bush 2003: Delmon Young 2002: Brian Bullington 2001: Joe Mauer 2000: Adrian Gonzalez Half of those guys turned into stars, half of them turned into... not much. (It's interesting how few of them were just serviceable major leaguers; it's all boom or bust.) I would bet that Nats fans don't agree with you. Their successful decade got jumpstarted by the drafting of Strasburg and Harper. And the Astros despite missing on Appel used it to their advantage as well. The Rays got their only pennant with David Price on the mound in relief. There are some franchise caliber players on that list which doesn't even include Casey Mize - don't you wish the Red Sox had a pitching prospect of that caliber? I mean, is going 27-33 really better than going 20-40 so you can get what's more likely lesser talent? I mean, you can put that same list above out for the say, #8 pick of the draft, and I'm sure you'll get some gems, but most likely that list on average is lesser than the list you compiled above - and that's with the Brian Bullington's on the world. Keep in mind some of the teams that picked first picked first because they had awful decision makers on top and those decision makers were staffed with guys who weren't as good at decision making (ie, scouting and drafting the best talent with their pick or not willing to spend the money) which is what got them to the bottom in the first place. If Bloom and the staff at his disposal are going to build championship caliber teams then it's not too tall a task to ask them to pick the top talent with the top pick of the country. That's their job - to correctly evaluate talent, not just major league talent, but college and high school as well. Is it fool proof? No, but looking at some of the potential HOF discussion caliber names on that list, that's a doable proposition picking from the #1 spot. If you're going to suck you might as well do in a shortened season where the misery isn't dragged out for 162 games, especially for a season that is kind of an abomination of a season anyways. So frankly, I couldn't care less if the Sox lose every damn game they play this year. They're going to do that mostly anyways with this awful pitching staff they threw together. It was obvious that ownership didn't care about winning in 2020 so why should I?
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 15, 2020 8:27:38 GMT -5
And I'm disappointed with the guy he hired to be the GM. True, Chaim couldn't have known Sale and E Rod would endure season ending injuries. But the gaggle of pitchers he traded for, and grabbed off the waiver wire have been noting short of pathetic so far this season. I feel badly for Ron Roenicke, a good baseball man who has to put on a positive outlook with what appears to be a basement dwelling team. Thank goodness the season is 1/3 over and we can start speculating on roster changes and key players returning to health next year. IF Bloom comes away from the trade deadline with two near major league ready Top 40ish pitching prospects without loosing any of our better young players, I am building a shrine on our spare lot. Hard to see Bloom getting anything of any major value. I mean, reading between the lines, we're looking at JD Martinez, JBJ, Moreland, Workman, and Pillar being traded. I do suspect all five will go. Doubt the Sox will get a hitter anywhere near the caliber of JDM. Honestly I don't see those players being moved for anything other than second or even third tier players. I could see Bloom figuring that getting out of the possibility that JDM will renew his deal is worth giving him away and putting another $22 million back into the budget. Can't see the others returning much more than middle reliever/back end starter types/#4 OF types. I think they'll do it even if they get near nothing to totally rebuild from scratch and have practically no money on the books for next year. I'm more curious about the potential returns than excited by them. The only loss that will bother me is JDM. I think you're not going to replace that caliber of offense in a trade and there's not much on the market (Springer?) who can provide the offense that JDM does. I do get why Bloom might not want to tie up $22 million of payroll on a DH, especially if he doesn't deem them ready to seriously compete in 2021.
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Post by cba82 on Aug 15, 2020 8:37:10 GMT -5
"I could see Bloom figuring that getting out of the possibility that JDM will renew his deal is worth giving him away and putting another $22 million back into the budget." -- I have a hard time seeing another team being willing to take on his contract; those player options are looking more and more unfriendly from a team-budget perspective.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 15, 2020 8:48:50 GMT -5
Ok it's obvious that we are in for multiple years of rebuild. That part can be fun too. The only way is up. At least we dropped fast rather than over several years. We won't be trying for years to patch. Great. Let's get going.
I don't blame Bloom one iota. He was in an untenable position. Bloom grabbed a bunch of stuff and threw it against the wall. Some were former first round picks that still could morph and stick. The Sox are the Queen. It will take a bit to turn around, but Bloom is not standing still. I'm sitting here having witnessed 4 world championships. I can handle a few years of climbing back up the mountain.
We were IMO, lucky to get Bloom. A seasoned GM might not have taken the job. This guy is young and vibrant. He will be on top of emerging trends and game nuances.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 15, 2020 9:02:22 GMT -5
IF Bloom comes away from the trade deadline with two near major league ready Top 40ish pitching prospects without loosing any of our better young players, I am building a shrine on our spare lot. Hard to see Bloom getting anything of any major value. I mean, reading between the lines, we're looking at JD Martinez, JBJ, Moreland, Workman, and Pillar being traded. I do suspect all five will go. Doubt the Sox will get a hitter anywhere near the caliber of JDM. Honestly I don't see those players being moved for anything other than second or even third tier players. I could see Bloom figuring that getting out of the possibility that JDM will renew his deal is worth giving him away and putting another $22 million back into the budget. Can't see the others returning much more than middle reliever/back end starter types/#4 OF types. I think they'll do it even if they get near nothing to totally rebuild from scratch and have practically no money on the books for next year. I'm more curious about the potential returns than excited by them. The only loss that will bother me is JDM. I think you're not going to replace that caliber of offense in a trade and there's not much on the market (Springer?) who can provide the offense that JDM does. I do get why Bloom might not want to tie up $22 million of payroll on a DH, especially if he doesn't deem them ready to seriously compete in 2021. I see quite the opposite. I see what is shaping up to be the best sellers market in our lifetimes, mainly because of a crappy 60 game season. I see a lot of team that are off to bad starts with too much talent to throw in the towel this early, teams like the Angels, Phillies, Mets and Nationals. I see teams off to hot starts who would almost be guaranteed to be sellers in a normal year, teams like the Marlins, Orioles and Tigers who aren't likely to not go for it this year. I see teams not likely to be major sellers like the Blue Jays who already have a solid young core. I see a lot of solid players who might be readily available for the few sellers to chose from. Guys like Frazier and Andujar from the Yankees and prospects that don't fit for 2020 like Whitley of the Astros and Marsh of the Angels.I see virtually every team except the Red Sox carrying prospects on their 60 man who aren't likely to be called up this year. I see 30 teams losing money with very few of those with the financial wherewithal to eat 2020 money. Demand driven trade can easily trigger bidding wars. ADD: I also see teams deep in prospects that are definitely in the mix, Reds and Padres for example.
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Post by manfred on Aug 15, 2020 9:04:43 GMT -5
Ok it's obvious that we are in for multiple years of rebuild. That part can be fun too. The only way is up. At least we dropped fast rather than over several years. We won't be trying for years to patch. Great. Let's get going. I don't blame Bloom one iota. He was in an untenable position. Bloom grabbed a bunch of stuff and threw it against the wall. Some were former first round picks that still could morph and stick. The Sox are the Queen. It will take a bit to turn around, but Bloom is not standing still. I'm sitting here having witnessed 4 world championships. I can handle a few years of climbing back up the mountain. We were IMO, lucky to get Bloom. A seasoned GM might not have taken the job. This guy is young and vibrant. He will be on top of emerging trends and game nuances. I don’t get the Bloom love. I mean, what has he done? I can accept wait and see, but there is no reason to assume he is some genius.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 15, 2020 9:08:31 GMT -5
Hard to see Bloom getting anything of any major value. I mean, reading between the lines, we're looking at JD Martinez, JBJ, Moreland, Workman, and Pillar being traded. I do suspect all five will go. Doubt the Sox will get a hitter anywhere near the caliber of JDM. Honestly I don't see those players being moved for anything other than second or even third tier players. I could see Bloom figuring that getting out of the possibility that JDM will renew his deal is worth giving him away and putting another $22 million back into the budget. Can't see the others returning much more than middle reliever/back end starter types/#4 OF types. I think they'll do it even if they get near nothing to totally rebuild from scratch and have practically no money on the books for next year. I'm more curious about the potential returns than excited by them. The only loss that will bother me is JDM. I think you're not going to replace that caliber of offense in a trade and there's not much on the market (Springer?) who can provide the offense that JDM does. I do get why Bloom might not want to tie up $22 million of payroll on a DH, especially if he doesn't deem them ready to seriously compete in 2021. I see quite the opposite. I see what is shaping up to be the best sellers market in our lifetimes, mainly because of a crappy 60 game season. I see a lot of team that are off to bad starts with too much talent to throw in the towel this early, teams like the Angels, Phillies, Mets and Nationals. I see teams off to hot starts who would almost be guaranteed to be sellers in a normal year, teams like the Marlins, Orioles and Tigers who aren't likely to not go for it this year. I see teams not likely to be major sellers like the Blue Jays who already have a solid young core. I see a lot of solid players who might be readily available for the few sellers to chose from. Guys like Frazier and Andujar from the Yankees and prospects that don't fit for 2020 like Whitley of the Astros and Marsh of the Angels.I see virtually every team except the Red Sox carrying prospects on their 60 man who aren't likely to be called up this year. I see 30 teams losing money with very few of those with the financial wherewithal to eat 2020 money. Demand driven trade can easily trigger bidding wars. Hard for me to see teams go "all in" on a 60 game season that can end at any moment with a string of positive tests for a crapshoot post-season tournament. I don't see any teams screwing up their futures for that, which is why I don't see any major value coming back for rentals this season beyond the second tier/third tier type talent.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 15, 2020 9:09:46 GMT -5
Ok it's obvious that we are in for multiple years of rebuild. That part can be fun too. The only way is up. At least we dropped fast rather than over several years. We won't be trying for years to patch. Great. Let's get going. I don't blame Bloom one iota. He was in an untenable position. Bloom grabbed a bunch of stuff and threw it against the wall. Some were former first round picks that still could morph and stick. The Sox are the Queen. It will take a bit to turn around, but Bloom is not standing still. I'm sitting here having witnessed 4 world championships. I can handle a few years of climbing back up the mountain. We were IMO, lucky to get Bloom. A seasoned GM might not have taken the job. This guy is young and vibrant. He will be on top of emerging trends and game nuances. I don’t get the Bloom love. I mean, what has he done? I can accept wait and see, but there is no reason to assume he is some genius. I'm hopeful there's a genius there, but honestly I am in the wait and see mode. The guy hasn't caught a break since he's been here. He walked into a total mess and it won't be fixed in an instant.
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Post by manfred on Aug 15, 2020 9:24:21 GMT -5
I don’t get the Bloom love. I mean, what has he done? I can accept wait and see, but there is no reason to assume he is some genius. I'm hopeful there's a genius there, but honestly I am in the wait and see mode. The guy hasn't caught a break since he's been here. He walked into a total mess and it won't be fixed in an instant. That’s totally fair.
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Post by kevfc89 on Aug 15, 2020 9:37:32 GMT -5
Ok it's obvious that we are in for multiple years of rebuild. That part can be fun too. The only way is up. At least we dropped fast rather than over several years. We won't be trying for years to patch. Great. Let's get going. I don't blame Bloom one iota. He was in an untenable position. Bloom grabbed a bunch of stuff and threw it against the wall. Some were former first round picks that still could morph and stick. The Sox are the Queen. It will take a bit to turn around, but Bloom is not standing still. I'm sitting here having witnessed 4 world championships. I can handle a few years of climbing back up the mountain. We were IMO, lucky to get Bloom. A seasoned GM might not have taken the job. This guy is young and vibrant. He will be on top of emerging trends and game nuances. I don’t get the Bloom love. I mean, what has he done? I can accept wait and see, but there is no reason to assume he is some genius. I mean, he was 1/2 of the brains in Tampa, where they've made a few moves that now look borderline genius; moves that brought them Glasnow, Meadows, and Nick Anderson, among others. And they built a currently competitive team over there with no monetary advantages. It's not unrealistic to assume that the guy is good at what he does, and that he should be able to do more moving to a team that can actually spend.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 15, 2020 9:37:46 GMT -5
Ok it's obvious that we are in for multiple years of rebuild. That part can be fun too. The only way is up. At least we dropped fast rather than over several years. We won't be trying for years to patch. Great. Let's get going. I don't blame Bloom one iota. He was in an untenable position. Bloom grabbed a bunch of stuff and threw it against the wall. Some were former first round picks that still could morph and stick. The Sox are the Queen. It will take a bit to turn around, but Bloom is not standing still. I'm sitting here having witnessed 4 world championships. I can handle a few years of climbing back up the ok mountain. We were IMO, lucky to get Bloom. A seasoned GM might not have taken the job. This guy is young and vibrant. He will be on top of emerging trends and game nuances. I don’t get the Bloom love. I mean, what has he done? I can accept wait and see, but there is no reason to assume he is some genius. Bloom hasn't had much of a chance (no chance). He had to cut payroll and in doing so lost his best player with less than optimum leverage and one of his best starters. Two other starters were sidelined unexpectedly. His former #5 starter is now his ace. Other players and the pen have not performed to expectations. Hey, it's a great time to start the renewal. Bloom is panning a trickling available talent stream in the hope of finding a fleck or two of gold. That means at present picking up other teams discards on a maybe. He's active where he can be currently. Let's see what the trade deadline brings.
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Post by Addam603 on Aug 15, 2020 10:00:13 GMT -5
Not worth its own thread, but Phillips Valdez has been a bright spot in this crappy season. General disclaimer about small sample size and mostly low leverage situations, but he’s looked good. He’s outperforming his expectations, but you can argue that he’s also been unlucky. The .292 batting average against and the 1.46 WHIP don’t look good, but if you pair that with a .368 BABIP and his batted ball profile it actually seems like he’s been a bit unlucky. Average exit velocity is 83.6 mph, which is the second lowest on the team behind Martin Perez. He’s throwing more changeups and less fastballs, which is working well for him to start the year. Fun stay: he has a 633 OPS+.
I don’t know if his success will last, but he at least deserves props for what he’s doing to begin the year.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 15, 2020 10:59:44 GMT -5
Boston Strong @bostonstrong_34 · 2h Tom Werner was on NESN earlier today, mentioned that they’re extremely dissapointed with the team’s performance even if they have some key players down. A lot of trading expected to come for players that don’t have long term contracts with the team. And I'm disappointed with the guy he hired to be the GM. True, Chaim couldn't have known Sale and E Rod would endure season ending injuries. But the gaggle of pitchers he traded for, and grabbed off the waiver wire have been noting short of pathetic so far this season. I feel badly for Ron Roenicke, a good baseball man who has to put on a positive outlook with what appears to be a basement dwelling team. Thank goodness the season is 1/3 over and we can start speculating on roster changes and key players returning to health next year. Really? You want to blame Chiam? He was mandated by ownership to shed salary. Chris Sale needed Tommy John. We're actually lucky about this condensed season because we all knew it back in 2019 that he needed it and the team kept saying otherwise. As soon as the season was in question, they opted for the surgery. E-Rod got sick and his career could be in question. David Price, even if not traded, opted out of the season. Literally, his only job was to shed salary and shop at the dollar tree and you're going to blame him for not getting Japanese Wagyu? He has made some decent moves, like choosing Perez over Porcello and I think he brought back Moreland on that cheap deal. Also, was he responsible for acquiring Jonathan Araúz?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 15, 2020 11:17:22 GMT -5
"I could see Bloom figuring that getting out of the possibility that JDM will renew his deal is worth giving him away and putting another $22 million back into the budget." -- I have a hard time seeing another team being willing to take on his contract; those player options are looking more and more unfriendly from a team-budget perspective. His salary goes down to 19 million the next two years. I have zero issue paying that for him and if they move him for nothing I would be shocked. We should be looking to spend in 2021 as you will get a lot of bang for your dollar. Yet we need to add to the team. Spending won't matter if there's no one left. Ownership better not cheap out on us after trading Betts.
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Post by manfred on Aug 15, 2020 11:29:11 GMT -5
"I could see Bloom figuring that getting out of the possibility that JDM will renew his deal is worth giving him away and putting another $22 million back into the budget." -- I have a hard time seeing another team being willing to take on his contract; those player options are looking more and more unfriendly from a team-budget perspective. His salary goes down to 19 million the next two years. I have zero issue paying that for him and if they move him for nothing I would be shocked. We should be looking to spend in 2021 as you will get a lot of bang for your dollar. Yet we need to add to the team. Spending won't matter if there's no one left. Ownership better not cheap out on us after trading Betts. The problem is that it is not a good free agent class. So spending could be redirecting the money that could go to X, for one. I’d rather have another bad year than sign guys and a few years from now cheap out on extending home grown stars... again. Just think... if they hadn’t sunk money in Eovaldi, could they have kept Mookie? And would it have been that hard to get a cheap starter who averages 1.1 bWAR a season in his career?
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 15, 2020 11:41:12 GMT -5
IF Bloom comes away from the trade deadline with two near major league ready Top 40ish pitching prospects without loosing any of our better young players, I am building a shrine on our spare lot. Hard to see Bloom getting anything of any major value. I mean, reading between the lines, we're looking at JD Martinez, JBJ, Moreland, Workman, and Pillar being traded. I do suspect all five will go. Doubt the Sox will get a hitter anywhere near the caliber of JDM. Honestly I don't see those players being moved for anything other than second or even third tier players. I could see Bloom figuring that getting out of the possibility that JDM will renew his deal is worth giving him away and putting another $22 million back into the budget. Can't see the others returning much more than middle reliever/back end starter types/#4 OF types. I think they'll do it even if they get near nothing to totally rebuild from scratch and have practically no money on the books for next year. I'm more curious about the potential returns than excited by them. The only loss that will bother me is JDM. I think you're not going to replace that caliber of offense in a trade and there's not much on the market (Springer?) who can provide the offense that JDM does. I do get why Bloom might not want to tie up $22 million of payroll on a DH, especially if he doesn't deem them ready to seriously compete in 2021. Unfortunately, I think Champs has nailed it here. It's unrealistic to think other teams look at JBJ, Moreland and Pillar as anything other than JAGs. JBJ's highest OPS-plus since 2016 is 92 and this year he's rocking a 52. Pillar is a fourth OFer. Moreland is 7.5 WAR over 10-plus years. Each of these guys might be worth a PTBNL or low-level prospect unlikely to ever make The Show. Workman? A better than average RP but I don't see a team coughing up a top-100 prospect for him. Any team that trades for 1-D JDM is probably going to want a guarantee he's more than one-month rental before giving up significant assets for him.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 15, 2020 11:49:00 GMT -5
His salary goes down to 19 million the next two years. I have zero issue paying that for him and if they move him for nothing I would be shocked. We should be looking to spend in 2021 as you will get a lot of bang for your dollar. Yet we need to add to the team. Spending won't matter if there's no one left. Ownership better not cheap out on us after trading Betts. The problem is that it is not a good free agent class. So spending could be redirecting the money that could go to X, for one. I’d rather have another bad year than sign guys and a few years from now cheap out on extending home grown stars... again. Just think... if they hadn’t sunk money in Eovaldi, could they have kept Mookie? And would it have been that hard to get a cheap starter who averages 1.1 bWAR a season in his career? Like I keep saying, no long-term deals. You're idea of spending is like DD, mine is like Tampa with money. Also like I've pointed out a few times trades will be big, many teams will want to unload salary. You could get prospects to take on contracts. So when I say spend, I mean just that, not just free agent deals. Stuff like Myers is included in that. Unless you can get crazy good deals, yet I would expect guys to take one year pillow contracts rather than sign deals like that. Which could make 2021 free agent class even better. You keep missing the point on Betts, it was never his per year salary that was an issue. Eovaldi wasn't a reason he was traded. He wanted way too many years. It sucks, but as has been pointed out repeatedly those long-term deals never end well. Betts wanted his crazy long big deal over staying in Boston. They offered him more per year than he got from the Dodgers.
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Post by manfred on Aug 15, 2020 11:54:46 GMT -5
The problem is that it is not a good free agent class. So spending could be redirecting the money that could go to X, for one. I’d rather have another bad year than sign guys and a few years from now cheap out on extending home grown stars... again. Just think... if they hadn’t sunk money in Eovaldi, could they have kept Mookie? And would it have been that hard to get a cheap starter who averages 1.1 bWAR a season in his career? Like I keep saying, no long-term deals. You're idea of spending is like DD, mine is like Tampa with money. Also like I've pointed out a few times trades will be big, many teams will want to unload salary. You could get prospects to take on contracts. So when I say spend, I mean just that, not just free agent deals. Stuff like Myers is included in that. Unless you can get crazy good deals, yet I would expect guys to take one year pillow contracts rather than sign deals like that. Which could make 2021 free agent class even better. You keep missing the point on Betts, it was never his per year salary that was an issue. Eovaldi wasn't a reason he was traded. He wanted way too many years. It sucks, but as has been pointed out repeatedly those long-term deals never end well. Betts wanted his crazy long big deal over staying in Boston. They offered him more per year than he got from the Dodgers. We don’t know anything about what did or did not happen with Betts. But given that we’d be 2/3 of the way through his contract when he is JDM’s age, I don’t think 12 years is actually a problem. I’m fine overpaying the last 3-4 years to get legit value for 8. Add: or, put differently: if they signed Springer to a 2-year deal, when that deal ends, he’d be the age Mookie will be when the latter is 1/2 way through his deal. That is not a bad investment in a home grown star whose value goes beyond just his raw stats. Finally, I think if the Sox were to sign, say, Springer to a four-year deal, fans have every right to be furious. Why would he be fine through age 35/36, but Mookie to 38/39 is too risky?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 15, 2020 11:58:08 GMT -5
Hard to see Bloom getting anything of any major value. I mean, reading between the lines, we're looking at JD Martinez, JBJ, Moreland, Workman, and Pillar being traded. I do suspect all five will go. Doubt the Sox will get a hitter anywhere near the caliber of JDM. Honestly I don't see those players being moved for anything other than second or even third tier players. I could see Bloom figuring that getting out of the possibility that JDM will renew his deal is worth giving him away and putting another $22 million back into the budget. Can't see the others returning much more than middle reliever/back end starter types/#4 OF types. I think they'll do it even if they get near nothing to totally rebuild from scratch and have practically no money on the books for next year. I'm more curious about the potential returns than excited by them. The only loss that will bother me is JDM. I think you're not going to replace that caliber of offense in a trade and there's not much on the market (Springer?) who can provide the offense that JDM does. I do get why Bloom might not want to tie up $22 million of payroll on a DH, especially if he doesn't deem them ready to seriously compete in 2021. Unfortunately, I think Champs has nailed it here. It's unrealistic to think other teams look at JBJ, Moreland and Pillar as anything other than JAGs. JBJ's highest OPS-plus since 2016 is 92 and this year he's rocking a 52. Pillar is a fourth OFer. Moreland is 7.5 WAR over 10-plus years. Each of these guys might be worth a PTBNL or low-level prospect unlikely to ever make The Show. Workman? A better than average RP but I don't see a team coughing up a top-100 prospect for him. Any team that trades for 1-D JDM is probably going to want a guarantee he's more than one-month rental before giving up significant assets for him. It's why you need a creative GM. Sure you likely can't get top 100 guys. Yet you might be able to get former top guys that have yet to produce in the majors or are struggling. There's also the adding in other assets type deals. Workman and Chavis for example. Taking back bad contracts like Myers. Then again maybe I'm giving our GM too much credit.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 15, 2020 12:16:10 GMT -5
Like I keep saying, no long-term deals. You're idea of spending is like DD, mine is like Tampa with money. Also like I've pointed out a few times trades will be big, many teams will want to unload salary. You could get prospects to take on contracts. So when I say spend, I mean just that, not just free agent deals. Stuff like Myers is included in that. Unless you can get crazy good deals, yet I would expect guys to take one year pillow contracts rather than sign deals like that. Which could make 2021 free agent class even better. You keep missing the point on Betts, it was never his per year salary that was an issue. Eovaldi wasn't a reason he was traded. He wanted way too many years. It sucks, but as has been pointed out repeatedly those long-term deals never end well. Betts wanted his crazy long big deal over staying in Boston. They offered him more per year than he got from the Dodgers. We don’t know anything about what did or did not happen with Betts. But given that we’d be 2/3 of the way through his contract when he is JDM’s age, I don’t think 12 years is actually a problem. I’m fine overpaying the last 3-4 years to get legit value for 8. Add: or, put differently: if they signed Springer to a 2-year deal, when that deal ends, he’d be the age Mookie will be when the latter is 1/2 way through his deal. That is not a bad investment in a home grown star whose value goes beyond just his raw stats. Umm Betts age 32 season would be the fifth year of a 12 year deal, that like 40%, seven more years left. For me it's about prime years versus the decline years. I don't do deals with likey more down years than prime years. 12 years has more risk than I'm willing to take for any player when it starts at age 28. I can see both sides of how Betts ages, plus there's always an injury. Betts isn't Ortiz though, he needs his athletic ability. Look at Nomar and Pedoria at how quickly elite players can decline. Age 28 is young for a free agent, yet he got 12 years. Not 7-8 years, so it runs to age 39.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 15, 2020 12:35:58 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I think Champs has nailed it here. It's unrealistic to think other teams look at JBJ, Moreland and Pillar as anything other than JAGs. JBJ's highest OPS-plus since 2016 is 92 and this year he's rocking a 52. Pillar is a fourth OFer. Moreland is 7.5 WAR over 10-plus years. Each of these guys might be worth a PTBNL or low-level prospect unlikely to ever make The Show. Workman? A better than average RP but I don't see a team coughing up a top-100 prospect for him. Any team that trades for 1-D JDM is probably going to want a guarantee he's more than one-month rental before giving up significant assets for him. It's why you need a creative GM. Sure you likely can't get top 100 guys. Yet you might be able to get former top guys that have yet to produce in the majors or are struggling. There's also the adding in other assets type deals. Workman and Chavis for example. Taking back bad contracts like Myers.Then again maybe I'm giving our GM too much credit. I agree with you here. I'm hoping that CB can "volume" a team. Offer BWM as a BP piece and MM as a lineup piece against RHP and maybe you get back a prospect in the lower tier of the top 100. I am absolutely all for taking back bad contracts with prospects attached and would like to see the SD trade consumated. I'm hoping that with teams having lost humongous revenues this season the RS can find teams desperate to move contracts and attach prospects this coming off-season. I'd call the LAD about JDM and offer them the chance to negotiate an extension with him before completing a trade. With their resources and the DH coming to the NL they might be willing to part with Josiah Gray (MLB prospect No. 73, Fangraphs No. 68) in return for JDM on a three- or four-year contract. It's striking to me how at the end of the 2019 season, the sentiment of the fan base seemed to be that a total tear-down was a far-fetched idea. Now it's accepted as a given.
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Post by manfred on Aug 15, 2020 12:38:15 GMT -5
We don’t know anything about what did or did not happen with Betts. But given that we’d be 2/3 of the way through his contract when he is JDM’s age, I don’t think 12 years is actually a problem. I’m fine overpaying the last 3-4 years to get legit value for 8. Add: or, put differently: if they signed Springer to a 2-year deal, when that deal ends, he’d be the age Mookie will be when the latter is 1/2 way through his deal. That is not a bad investment in a home grown star whose value goes beyond just his raw stats. Umm Betts age 32 season would be the fifth year of a 12 year deal, that like 40%, seven more years left. For me it's about prime years versus the decline years. I don't do deals with likey more down years than prime years. 12 years has more risk than I'm willing to take for any player when it starts at age 28. I can see both sides of how Betts ages, plus there's always an injury. Betts isn't Ortiz though, he needs his athletic ability. Look at Nomar and Pedoria at how quickly elite players can decline. Age 28 is young for a free agent, yet he got 12 years. Not 7-8 years, so it runs to age 39. The age issue remains my main point. Because he was a young free agent, to replace him you may end up having to pay someone for almost the same age-years. So if they signed Springer (merely a typical example) through his age 35 season (not a crazy contract for a free agent... 4years), they’d be going a long way towards where Betts would end.... having not gotten ages 28-32. Betts is gone. It’s done. But I’d be happy to see a career-long extension for Xander. If they could do 10-years, I’d go for it in a heartbeat. Say what you want about the Yankees (please!) but their long stretch was greater for having soul. Jeter, Mo, Bernie... if the Sox win a World Series in 3 years, 5 years, with a team that doesn’t have Betts or Bogaerts, it loses a great deal of that soul. I’m not here to watch mercenaries in laundry.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 15, 2020 12:50:22 GMT -5
Like I keep saying, no long-term deals. You're idea of spending is like DD, mine is like Tampa with money. Also like I've pointed out a few times trades will be big, many teams will want to unload salary. You could get prospects to take on contracts. So when I say spend, I mean just that, not just free agent deals. Stuff like Myers is included in that. Unless you can get crazy good deals, yet I would expect guys to take one year pillow contracts rather than sign deals like that. Which could make 2021 free agent class even better. You keep missing the point on Betts, it was never his per year salary that was an issue. Eovaldi wasn't a reason he was traded. He wanted way too many years. It sucks, but as has been pointed out repeatedly those long-term deals never end well. Betts wanted his crazy long big deal over staying in Boston. They offered him more per year than he got from the Dodgers. We don’t know anything about what did or did not happen with Betts. But given that we’d be 2/3 of the way through his contract when he is JDM’s age, I don’t think 12 years is actually a problem. I’m fine overpaying the last 3-4 years to get legit value for 8. Add: or, put differently: if they signed Springer to a 2-year deal, when that deal ends, he’d be the age Mookie will be when the latter is 1/2 way through his deal. That is not a bad investment in a home grown star whose value goes beyond just his raw stats. Finally, I think if the Sox were to sign, say, Springer to a four-year deal, fans have every right to be furious. Why would he be fine through age 35/36, but Mookie to 38/39 is too risky? But keep in mind that we would have burned at least two of Mookie's productive years on crap teams. He would make no difference on the 2020 Boston Red Sox, a team that comes into today's game with a staff ERA of 5.86 and a ghastly 1.65 WHIP. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the 2021 team is good enough for Mookie to lift into the PS. I think we face at least two years of significant suckage. I miss him, too. But non-contending teams that hand out contracts like he got from the LAD remain non-contending teams longer than they should.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 15, 2020 12:54:36 GMT -5
Umm Betts age 32 season would be the fifth year of a 12 year deal, that like 40%, seven more years left. For me it's about prime years versus the decline years. I don't do deals with likey more down years than prime years. 12 years has more risk than I'm willing to take for any player when it starts at age 28. I can see both sides of how Betts ages, plus there's always an injury. Betts isn't Ortiz though, he needs his athletic ability. Look at Nomar and Pedoria at how quickly elite players can decline. Age 28 is young for a free agent, yet he got 12 years. Not 7-8 years, so it runs to age 39. The age issue remains my main point. Because he was a young free agent, to replace him you may end up having to pay someone for almost the same age-years. So if they signed Springer (merely a typical example) through his age 35 season (not a crazy contract for a free agent... 4years), they’d be going a long way towards where Betts would end.... having not gotten ages 28-32. Betts is gone. It’s done. But I’d be happy to see a career-long extension for Xander. If they could do 10-years, I’d go for it in a heartbeat. Say what you want about the Yankees (please!) but their long stretch was greater for having soul. Jeter, Mo, Bernie... if the Sox win a World Series in 3 years, 5 years, with a team that doesn’t have Betts or Bogaerts, it loses a great deal of that soul. I’m not here to watch mercenaries in laundry. But Manfred, come on. Mookie Betts is the definition of a mercenary. He made it clear he wanted the highest-value contract he could get and felt no sentimentality toward Boston. I don't begrudge him that. FA is a right the players won fair and square through the courts and negotiations. But let's not pretend that he was aching to stay in Boston and the RS cheaped out. This isn't a Carlton Fisk or Jon Lester situation.
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