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8/20-8/23 Red Sox @ Orioles Series Thread
manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 12:49:37 GMT -5
There are certain guys who fall in my #never camp. I might hate them, or I might tolerate them: JD Drew, Adrien Gonzalez, Beckett, even JDM. They wear the jersey, but they seem like temps, guys brought in as mercenaries. You don’t necessarily have to be a Lifelong Sox to feel home grown... cf. Big Papi. Hell, Manny felt like he was made for this club. I put Verdugo in the JD Drew camp. He’ll never escape how he got here in my mind. If they win with him, I’ll tolerate him, just as I tolerated Drew and appreciated his contributions. But I had no affection. Purely transactional. Certainly entitled to your opinion on the bold. I guess I just don't understand the logic. It's not like Verdugo went to Andrew Friedman and demanded a trade to the Red Sox. It's not like he begged to be the "carrot" to lure Betts from Boston to LA. Baseball-wise, Verdugo has nothing to be guilty of. It's not like he took the highest $ to get to the Red Sox. So he's no mercenary. On the field, he strikes me as an immature kid who will do dumb stuff on the basepaths, but has a damn good hit tool with developing power and a rocket arm, who really, really enjoys playing baseball and is quite happy to be with the Red Sox. Obviously he idolized David Ortiz. You can't fake that kind of enthusiasm. He also strikes me as a guy, who - if he develops as hoped - will become an above average regular who'll make an all-star game or two - AND - will be quite receptive to staying with the Red Sox beyond his free agency. I'm uneasy about what happened off the field in LA. On the field, Alex Verdugo will be an asset and a joy to watch and you can see his joy in what he does. That's very likeable. His worst fault on the field is that he's not Mookie Betts (who is?!) - but that is NOT his fault. True, but it is not Derek Jeter’s fault he got drafted by the Yankees. Still hate him. Life isn’t always fair like that.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 21, 2020 13:59:01 GMT -5
I'll take Martinez over Manny every day of the week.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 14:06:36 GMT -5
I'll take Martinez over Manny every day of the week. Oh no! Manny?? C’mon! He was a better hitter AND a clown. Martinez is an automaton. Again, I can be appreciative of his contributions, but there is zero emotional attachment. It is like rooting for the paddle in Pong. Add: there are 3 players with higher oWAR than Manny not in the HOF, 2 for scandal, one active. ARod, Rose, and Pujols. Guy was one of the great offensive forces of my lifetime. And in the field he was.... exciting? Edit 2: And... Manny is 32 in oWAR. The first guy on the list not in the HOF for non-scandal reasons (or not pending, like Beltre) is Dick Allen... at 62. Manny is dead smack in the middle of the truly greatest hitters of all time (only four guys ahead of him accrued their total in fewer years than he did, too). And did I mention the adventures in the outfield?
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Post by incandenza on Aug 21, 2020 14:34:49 GMT -5
I'll take Martinez over Manny every day of the week. Oh no! Manny?? C’mon! He was a better hitter AND a clown. Martinez is an automaton. Again, I can be appreciative of his contributions, but there is zero emotional attachment. It is like rooting for the paddle in Pong. Add: there are 3 players with higher oWAR than Manny not in the HOF, 2 for scandal, one active. ARod, Rose, and Pujols. Guy was one of the great offensive forces of my lifetime. And in the field he was.... exciting? Edit 2: And... Manny is 32 in oWAR. The first guy on the list not in the HOF for non-scandal reasons (or not pending, like Beltre) is Dick Allen... at 62. Manny is dead smack in the middle of the truly greatest hitters of all time (only four guys ahead of him accrued their total in fewer years than he did, too). And did I mention the adventures in the outfield? JDM strikes me as a pretty likable guy - funny and intelligent, certainly not an automaton. He's just not much of a showman or much for zany theatrics. Of course, Manny is a first ballot inductee into the Zany Theatrics Hall of Fame...
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 21, 2020 14:36:42 GMT -5
It's really nothing against Manny. It's Martinez is on a much better contract, gives you similar production with his bat, you don't have to deal with the bad D or other issues. Also Martinez is like having an extra hitting coach. I wouldn't overlook that, many reports over the last few years how he helped guys.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 21, 2020 15:00:29 GMT -5
I'll take Martinez over Manny every day of the week. Oh no! Manny?? C’mon! He was a better hitter AND a clown. Martinez is an automaton. Again, I can be appreciative of his contributions, but there is zero emotional attachment. It is like rooting for the paddle in Pong. Add: there are 3 players with higher oWAR than Manny not in the HOF, 2 for scandal, one active. ARod, Rose, and Pujols. Guy was one of the great offensive forces of my lifetime. And in the field he was.... exciting? Edit 2: And... Manny is 32 in oWAR. The first guy on the list not in the HOF for non-scandal reasons (or not pending, like Beltre) is Dick Allen... at 62. Manny is dead smack in the middle of the truly greatest hitters of all time (only four guys ahead of him accrued their total in fewer years than he did, too). And did I mention the adventures in the outfield? Well, Manny also got caught various times taking steroids, he clearly tanked an AB against Mariano Rivera when he watched 3 straight pitches and his bat never once left his shoulder and he supposedly shoved an elderly gentleman. Great hitter with a personality, but I'll take JD.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 15:16:18 GMT -5
It's really nothing against Manny. It's Martinez is on a much better contract, gives you similar production with his bat, you don't have to deal with the bad D or other issues. Also Martinez is like having an extra hitting coach. I wouldn't overlook that, many reports over the last few years how he helped guys. Well, we might have to overlook the bad D if he played any. I was not questioning JDM’s value. Just his entertainment value. I can’t think of a JDM moment that will live forever with me... from Beni’s catch (great) down to Manny’s D (ahem). It is the converse of my love for JBJ. I will be the first to admit he is not so good. But I turn on the Sox in part to watch him play D. I hope every game to see him uncork a throw. Or Devers. He is a highwire act. He could hit a 500 foot home run and then throw one 500 feet past first base.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 21, 2020 15:17:58 GMT -5
Certainly entitled to your opinion on the bold. I guess I just don't understand the logic. It's not like Verdugo went to Andrew Friedman and demanded a trade to the Red Sox. It's not like he begged to be the "carrot" to lure Betts from Boston to LA. Baseball-wise, Verdugo has nothing to be guilty of. It's not like he took the highest $ to get to the Red Sox. So he's no mercenary. On the field, he strikes me as an immature kid who will do dumb stuff on the basepaths, but has a damn good hit tool with developing power and a rocket arm, who really, really enjoys playing baseball and is quite happy to be with the Red Sox. Obviously he idolized David Ortiz. You can't fake that kind of enthusiasm. He also strikes me as a guy, who - if he develops as hoped - will become an above average regular who'll make an all-star game or two - AND - will be quite receptive to staying with the Red Sox beyond his free agency. I'm uneasy about what happened off the field in LA. On the field, Alex Verdugo will be an asset and a joy to watch and you can see his joy in what he does. That's very likeable. His worst fault on the field is that he's not Mookie Betts (who is?!) - but that is NOT his fault. True, but it is not Derek Jeter’s fault he got drafted by the Yankees. Still hate him. Life isn’t always fair like that. Rivera was drafted by the Yankees and I never hated him. Jeter, with his smug demeanor and smirk, ever ready cliche, and obnoxious fist pump gave me plenty of reasons to hate his Yankee-ness.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 15:21:02 GMT -5
True, but it is not Derek Jeter’s fault he got drafted by the Yankees. Still hate him. Life isn’t always fair like that. Rivera was drafted by the Yankees and I never hated him. Jeter, with his smug demeanor, ready cliche, and obnoxious fist pump gave me plenty of reasons to hate his Yankee-ness. Jeter, with that smirk, f I suspect Pedroia gets similar takes on Yankee boards. And if Pedey had been a lifelong Yankee, how much would we hate that guy?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 21, 2020 15:23:03 GMT -5
Rivera was drafted by the Yankees and I never hated him. Jeter, with his smug demeanor, ready cliche, and obnoxious fist pump gave me plenty of reasons to hate his Yankee-ness. Jeter, with that smirk, f I suspect Pedroia gets similar takes on Yankee boards. And if Pedey had been a lifelong Yankee, how much would we hate that guy? A ton. Haha. Of course if I were a Yankees fan (perish the thought) David Ortiz would be number 1 on my (baseball) hate list.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 21, 2020 15:33:34 GMT -5
It's really nothing against Manny. It's Martinez is on a much better contract, gives you similar production with his bat, you don't have to deal with the bad D or other issues. Also Martinez is like having an extra hitting coach. I wouldn't overlook that, many reports over the last few years how he helped guys. Well, we might have to overlook the bad D if he played any. I was not questioning JDM’s value. Just his entertainment value. I can’t think of a JDM moment that will live forever with me... from Beni’s catch (great) down to Manny’s D (ahem). It is the converse of my love for JBJ. I will be the first to admit he is not so good. But I turn on the Sox in part to watch him play D. I hope every game to see him uncork a throw. Or Devers. He is a highwire act. He could hit a 500 foot home run and then throw one 500 feet past first base. Entertainment value is much better with Martinez because he's at DH, like it was never any fun watching Ortiz at 1B. All the power to you if you enjoy Devers making mistakes on D, guess that's why you love Manny more than Martinez. I don't enjoy that. I enjoy the 100% professional hitter that Martinez is. You seem to like the Manny being Manny crap, I never did. Just like I never liked Price going after Eck and his crap either. I do have to ask though, why don't you like Bauer than? He's like a modern day Manny with non stop crap.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 15:41:12 GMT -5
Well, we might have to overlook the bad D if he played any. I was not questioning JDM’s value. Just his entertainment value. I can’t think of a JDM moment that will live forever with me... from Beni’s catch (great) down to Manny’s D (ahem). It is the converse of my love for JBJ. I will be the first to admit he is not so good. But I turn on the Sox in part to watch him play D. I hope every game to see him uncork a throw. Or Devers. He is a highwire act. He could hit a 500 foot home run and then throw one 500 feet past first base. Entertainment value is much better with Martinez because he's at DH, like it was never any fun watching Ortiz at 1B. All the power to you if you enjoy Devers making mistakes on D, guess that's why you love Manny more than Martinez. I don't enjoy that. I enjoy the 100% professional hitter that Martinez is. You seem to like the Manny being Manny crap, I never did. Just like I never liked Price going after Eck and his crap either. I do have to ask though, why don't you like Bauer than? He's like a modern day Manny with non stop crap. I don’t like Devers making mistakes: I like him not making mistakes knowing it might have been otherwise. I like watching him grow from struggles. But I do also like that even with his mistakes, he makes it all worth it in the end. Price going after Eck was a serious misfire, but I liked Price, overall. He cared and stuck up for teammates (even if that was a bad example). Speaking of which, I liked Eck. He was a great heel when he beat you and pumped his fist etc and without that Gibson’s home run would not have been quite as awesome. AND Eck was all class about that. Bauer is a fool who pops off in Schilling-esque ways. I don’t need it in my life. Add: my favorite line about Bauer is from a Deadspin article: he is a stupid person’s idea of a smart person.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 21, 2020 16:22:21 GMT -5
Just win, baby !!!!
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 21, 2020 16:47:19 GMT -5
Certainly entitled to your opinion on the bold. I guess I just don't understand the logic. It's not like Verdugo went to Andrew Friedman and demanded a trade to the Red Sox. It's not like he begged to be the "carrot" to lure Betts from Boston to LA. Baseball-wise, Verdugo has nothing to be guilty of. It's not like he took the highest $ to get to the Red Sox. So he's no mercenary. On the field, he strikes me as an immature kid who will do dumb stuff on the basepaths, but has a damn good hit tool with developing power and a rocket arm, who really, really enjoys playing baseball and is quite happy to be with the Red Sox. Obviously he idolized David Ortiz. You can't fake that kind of enthusiasm. He also strikes me as a guy, who - if he develops as hoped - will become an above average regular who'll make an all-star game or two - AND - will be quite receptive to staying with the Red Sox beyond his free agency. I'm uneasy about what happened off the field in LA. On the field, Alex Verdugo will be an asset and a joy to watch and you can see his joy in what he does. That's very likeable. His worst fault on the field is that he's not Mookie Betts (who is?!) - but that is NOT his fault. True, but it is not Derek Jeter’s fault he got drafted by the Yankees. Still hate him. Life isn’t always fair like that. You seriously blame Verdugo for being traded to the RS but are not bugged by the villainous Mookie passing up an incredibly lucrative opportunity to stay in Boston? He turned down $300M to stay. I personally am not bugged by Mookie's decision and use the adjective "villainous" in pure jest. He made a business decision, just like we all make when we decide to take a job, trade a stock or make a home improvement. But your logic continues to baffle.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 21, 2020 17:03:24 GMT -5
I personally love watching people who love baseball play baseball
And for that reason I love Alex Verdugo
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 17:03:42 GMT -5
True, but it is not Derek Jeter’s fault he got drafted by the Yankees. Still hate him. Life isn’t always fair like that. You seriously blame Verdugo for being traded to the RS but are not bugged by the villainous Mookie passing up an incredibly lucrative opportunity to stay in Boston? He turned down $300M to stay. I personally am not bugged by Mookie's decision and use the adjective "villainous" in pure jest. He made a business decision, just like we all make when we decide to take a job, trade a stock or make a home improvement. But your logic continues to baffle. I don’t know that I hold it against *him* per se. But it is a taint. And it means he’s playing catch up. It is hard for me to be excited about a RF this season, for example, who is about 1/3 the value of the guy who should be there. And... none of this is to mention off field stuff that would require a lot of getting past. I get I may be alone in this. That’s fine. And I don’t pretend to have an advanced formula for who I like and don’t like, or who I will look back at fondly as true Sox and who I view as mercenaries. I refer to Potter Stewart on the matter. But I am also a loyalty guy, and I think it actually starts with owners and fans... players last. If I was a player for a team who had fans who seemed largely ok with jettisoning stars, I’d feel no compunction leaving. If I were Xander right now, I’d be looking at the front of my jersey like one more bar code.
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Post by juanfatj on Aug 21, 2020 17:43:32 GMT -5
You seriously blame Verdugo for being traded to the RS but are not bugged by the villainous Mookie passing up an incredibly lucrative opportunity to stay in Boston? He turned down $300M to stay. I personally am not bugged by Mookie's decision and use the adjective "villainous" in pure jest. He made a business decision, just like we all make when we decide to take a job, trade a stock or make a home improvement. But your logic continues to baffle. I don’t know that I hold it against *him* per se. But it is a taint. And it means he’s playing catch up. It is hard for me to be excited about a RF this season, for example, who is about 1/3 the value of the guy who should be there. And... none of this is to mention off field stuff that would require a lot of getting past. I get I may be alone in this. That’s fine. And I don’t pretend to have an advanced formula for who I like and don’t like, or who I will look back at fondly as true Sox and who I view as mercenaries. I refer to Potter Stewart on the matter. But I am also a loyalty guy, and I think it actually starts with owners and fans... players last. If I was a player for a team who had fans who seemed largely ok with jettisoning stars, I’d feel no compunction leaving. If I were Xander right now, I’d be looking at the front of my jersey like one more bar code. Well since Verdugo plays more left than right, you can jump on the train. Dude plays with heart, and is the reason I watch this team this year.
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Post by juanfatj on Aug 21, 2020 18:31:08 GMT -5
1. Kevin Pillar RF 2. Rafael Devers 3B 3. JD Martinez DH 4. Xander Bogaerts SS 5. Christian Vázquez C 6. Alex Verdugo LF 7. Michael Chavis 1B 8. Jackie Bradley Jr CF 9. Jose Peraza 2B SP. Colten Brewer
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Aug 21, 2020 19:01:14 GMT -5
Xander boosting that trade value
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Aug 21, 2020 19:14:10 GMT -5
Xander boosting that trade value Bite your tongue.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Aug 21, 2020 19:18:55 GMT -5
Teams will love to see JD getting his stroke back. He's gonna be huge for someone this postseason
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Post by chr31ter on Aug 21, 2020 19:19:58 GMT -5
I'm just saying... 42-18 probably gets us into the playoffs.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 21, 2020 19:22:12 GMT -5
FACT CHECK: Remy says it's unusual for two players on the same team to have the same birthday, but actually the odds of two random people in a room sharing the same birthday are above 50% when you have only 23 people in the room. It's almost certain that most teams have two guys who share a birthday.
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Post by juanfatj on Aug 21, 2020 19:59:09 GMT -5
That was a Blast!
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Post by Addam603 on Aug 21, 2020 19:59:32 GMT -5
Home runs from Bogie, JDM, and Devers. In the same game. Gotta love it.
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