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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Sept 21, 2020 10:31:11 GMT -5
The General Rule: do not have a player on your 40-man if he does not belong on a 40-man.
The Sox might make an exception this winter for somebody. But if they put that bunch of pitchers through waivers: 1) It's unlikely that more than one will be claimed. They would be competing against each other for interest from the 29 clubs. 2) congratulations to the claimed player X. Call it a success that the Sox turned a milb guy into MLB. 3) Sox can get player X back next summer when he is waived again.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Sept 21, 2020 10:48:55 GMT -5
So you release your second best reliever and your best sp this year. That screams smart. Both are cheap as well. Who exactly in that group is the teams best starting pitcher this? And calling brasier the teams 2nd best reliever this year is not saying much given that the team traded away a third of its bullpen (workman/hembree) and lost a third (Hernandez/taylor) to injury. Guys like brasier are a dime a dozen. Not going to say Brasier is a setup 8th inning guy like some of us thought 2y ago, myself included, but what he is is a guy with 2 good pitches that sits in the upper 90's FB wise. Doesn't walk 4-5 guys per nine innings.. That in itself is a rarity compared to many hard throwing people and should be used in middle innings, rather than 8th, which started after the Workman-Hembree deal. Whining about his miscast role (and Barnes by others) only shows the shortages of the pen in general, not any wrongs regarding Brasier.
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Post by unitspin on Sept 21, 2020 10:54:20 GMT -5
So you release your second best reliever and your best sp this year. That screams smart. Both are cheap as well. Who exactly in that group is the teams best starting pitcher this? And calling brasier the teams 2nd best reliever this year is not saying much given that the team traded away a third of its bullpen (workman/hembree) and lost a third (Hernandez/taylor) to injury. Guys like brasier are a dime a dozen. Thought perez was listed there I should have read closer. But as for brasier dislike him if you like but he is not that replaceable his numbers are better then every guy you listed. If guys like brasier were a dime a dozen he wouldn't be in the majors. Get used to him he is going to be here for a while.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 21, 2020 12:01:02 GMT -5
Who exactly in that group is the teams best starting pitcher this? And calling brasier the teams 2nd best reliever this year is not saying much given that the team traded away a third of its bullpen (workman/hembree) and lost a third (Hernandez/taylor) to injury. Guys like brasier are a dime a dozen. Thought perez was listed there I should have read closer. But as for brasier dislike him if you like but he is not that replaceable his numbers are better then every guy you listed. If guys like brasier were a dime a dozen he wouldn't be in the majors. Get used to him he is going to be here for a while. I wouldn't go that far. Bloom is an extremely active GM and I expect plenty of wheeling and dealing this winter and beyond. Wouldn't be surprised if he did move Brasier. There are very few guys that I feel are going to be here awhile. There's Devers, Bogaerts, Verdugo, E-Rod and Sale. That's about it. Everybody else could easily go and soon.
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Post by unitspin on Sept 21, 2020 12:39:05 GMT -5
Thought perez was listed there I should have read closer. But as for brasier dislike him if you like but he is not that replaceable his numbers are better then every guy you listed. If guys like brasier were a dime a dozen he wouldn't be in the majors. Get used to him he is going to be here for a while. I wouldn't go that far. Bloom is an extremely active GM and I expect plenty of wheeling and dealing this winter and beyond. Wouldn't be surprised if he did move Brasier. There are very few guys that I feel are going to be here awhile. There's Devers, Bogaerts, Verdugo, E-Rod and Sale. That's about it. Everybody else could easily go and soon. Erod has one year left with the red sox before free agency. You think bloom is going to pay erod big money when he can never stay on the mound.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 22, 2020 1:18:20 GMT -5
I wouldn't go that far. Bloom is an extremely active GM and I expect plenty of wheeling and dealing this winter and beyond. Wouldn't be surprised if he did move Brasier. There are very few guys that I feel are going to be here awhile. There's Devers, Bogaerts, Verdugo, E-Rod and Sale. That's about it. Everybody else could easily go and soon. Erod has one year left with the red sox before free agency. You think bloom is going to pay erod big money when he can never stay on the mound. I get your point. Guys who sprain their ankle covering 1B and then get COVID-19 tend to have those things happen again. Especially if they happen two years apart and they lead MLB in games started in the intervening year.
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Post by unitspin on Sept 22, 2020 5:35:19 GMT -5
Erod has one year left with the red sox before free agency. You think bloom is going to pay erod big money when he can never stay on the mound. I get your point. Guys who sprain their ankle covering 1B and then get COVID-19 tend to have those things happen again. Especially if they happen two years apart and they lead MLB in games started in the intervening year. He will be 28 next season and has thrown over 140 innings once in his career. Not really the type of pitcher id like to see them waste money on. How much you think he will be asking, Evoaldi money? Especially since after next season you could have both houck and Mata in the mix for your rotation. I like erod just not on a long term deal at the numbers the market values him at.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 22, 2020 7:19:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't go that far. Bloom is an extremely active GM and I expect plenty of wheeling and dealing this winter and beyond. Wouldn't be surprised if he did move Brasier. There are very few guys that I feel are going to be here awhile. There's Devers, Bogaerts, Verdugo, E-Rod and Sale. That's about it. Everybody else could easily go and soon. Erod has one year left with the red sox before free agency. You think bloom is going to pay erod big money when he can never stay on the mound. I have a strange feeling that E-Rod and Bloom will come to some sort of deal where Bloom doesn't have to invest crazy money on him. Honestly, we don't even know how much he'll pitch next season. I would think he'll be treated with kid gloves. I don't know why but I have a sense (which has been wrong before) that E-Rod will stick around here beyond, but no, I wouldn't be shocked if he wasn't here beyond free agency. I do think the lack of track record for making it through a season without something happening will make other teams hesitate from throwing huge $ around for him. Not saying he won't make good money. I'm just saying I think there could be some wiggle room and a willingness to stick around from E-Rod. Otherwise he'd be last on the short list of guys I think Bloom keeps around. I mean he could trade Devers, but I figure he's virtually last or near it on the list of everybody the Red Sox have. I just think we will see a ton of wheeling and dealing over the next next couple of seasons until they have their core in place. He will always be tinkering with guys supplementing the core, but I feel the core isn't quite there yet, especially from a pitching perspective, which is why I can see Bloom bending a bit with somebody who I think can be flexible, like an E-Rod. I guess we'll just have to see what they can get from him next season.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Sept 22, 2020 7:20:07 GMT -5
I get your point. Guys who sprain their ankle covering 1B and then get COVID-19 tend to have those things happen again. Especially if they happen two years apart and they lead MLB in games started in the intervening year. He will be 28 next season and has thrown over 140 innings once in his career. Not really the type of pitcher id like to see them waste money on. How much you think he will be asking, Evoaldi money? Especially since after next season you could have both houck and Mata in the mix for your rotation. I like erod just not on a long term deal at the numbers the market values him at. I think Eovaldi contract is perfect for E-Rod, pending positive heart news and stamina build-up.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 22, 2020 9:30:59 GMT -5
I get your point. Guys who sprain their ankle covering 1B and then get COVID-19 tend to have those things happen again. Especially if they happen two years apart and they lead MLB in games started in the intervening year. He will be 28 next season and has thrown over 140 innings once in his career. Not really the type of pitcher id like to see them waste money on. How much you think he will be asking, Evoaldi money? Especially since after next season you could have both houck and Mata in the mix for your rotation. I like erod just not on a long term deal at the numbers the market values him at. First, it's not even close to true Rodriguez has thrown over 140 innings once. IP by year: 2010: 65.2 (DSL) 2011: 48.2 (RK/SS-A) 2012: 107 (A) 2013: 159 (A+/AA/AFL) 2014: 120 (AA incl. trade) 2015: 170 (AAA/MLB) 2016: 155.2 (AAA/MLB/VWL) 2017: 150.2 (AA/AAA/MLB) 2018: 137.2 (AA/MLB) 2019: 203.1 (MLB) Now, if your point is he's not a horse who should get paid like Gerrit Cole? Cool. But you make it sound like he's been Garrett Richards or something. I mean, 88 MLB pitchers threw 140 innings last season. It's not like that's a threshold that means a ton in the days of openers and teams with 5 guys in the bullpen throwing high 90s. All that said - I'm not sure this is the offseason to extend him either, and I think both sides would agree on that. He's got to show he's healthy. This isn't a standard surgical procedure he's recovering from or something. Extending a guy who literally has an issue with his heart, unless they're getting some kind of insane discount, would be silly.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 22, 2020 10:38:31 GMT -5
He will be 28 next season and has thrown over 140 innings once in his career. Not really the type of pitcher id like to see them waste money on. How much you think he will be asking, Evoaldi money? Especially since after next season you could have both houck and Mata in the mix for your rotation. I like erod just not on a long term deal at the numbers the market values him at. First, it's not even close to true Rodriguez has thrown over 140 innings once. IP by year: 2010: 65.2 (DSL) 2011: 48.2 (RK/SS-A) 2012: 107 (A) 2013: 159 (A+/AA/AFL) 2014: 120 (AA incl. trade) 2015: 170 (AAA/MLB) 2016: 155.2 (AAA/MLB/VWL) 2017: 150.2 (AA/AAA/MLB) 2018: 137.2 (AA/MLB) 2019: 203.1 (MLB) Now, if your point is he's not a horse who should get paid like Gerrit Cole? Cool. But you make it sound like he's been Garrett Richards or something. I mean, 88 MLB pitchers threw 140 innings last season. It's not like that's a threshold that means a ton in the days of openers and teams with 5 guys in the bullpen throwing high 90s. All that said - I'm not sure this is the offseason to extend him either, and I think both sides would agree on that. He's got to show he's healthy. This isn't a standard surgical procedure he's recovering from or something. Extending a guy who literally has an issue with his heart, unless they're getting some kind of insane discount, would be silly. Not if the contract had clauses covering the situation.
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Post by unitspin on Sept 22, 2020 11:36:19 GMT -5
So minor league innings count towards mlb service time?? I wouldn't give him an Evoaldi like deal but then again I was not that sold on giving that same deal to Evoaldi either. And after two years looks like I was right. Id hate to say I'm right about them paying another starter over market. It's not a good move if this is a rebuild like most on this board having been saying. If its a rebuild and the sox stink next year as well trade him at the deadline for young arms and move onto the next one.
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Post by ramireja on Sept 22, 2020 11:39:19 GMT -5
So minor league innings count towards mlb service time?? I think most of us would have interpreted your original post as referring to durability concerns and not having anything to do with service time.
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Post by unitspin on Sept 22, 2020 11:48:20 GMT -5
So minor league innings count towards mlb service time?? I think most of us would have interpreted your original post as referring to durability concerns and not having anything to do with service time. Edited my previous post to give more the angle I'm coming from. If he starts 30 games next season his durability would not be a concern too me. But as of now he is not a guy I would want to give a 4 or 5 year deal too.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 22, 2020 16:40:01 GMT -5
First, it's not even close to true Rodriguez has thrown over 140 innings once. IP by year: 2010: 65.2 (DSL) 2011: 48.2 (RK/SS-A) 2012: 107 (A) 2013: 159 (A+/AA/AFL) 2014: 120 (AA incl. trade) 2015: 170 (AAA/MLB) 2016: 155.2 (AAA/MLB/VWL) 2017: 150.2 (AA/AAA/MLB) 2018: 137.2 (AA/MLB) 2019: 203.1 (MLB) Now, if your point is he's not a horse who should get paid like Gerrit Cole? Cool. But you make it sound like he's been Garrett Richards or something. I mean, 88 MLB pitchers threw 140 innings last season. It's not like that's a threshold that means a ton in the days of openers and teams with 5 guys in the bullpen throwing high 90s. All that said - I'm not sure this is the offseason to extend him either, and I think both sides would agree on that. He's got to show he's healthy. This isn't a standard surgical procedure he's recovering from or something. Extending a guy who literally has an issue with his heart, unless they're getting some kind of insane discount, would be silly. Not if the contract had clauses covering the situation. I'm not sure how you'd even structure that. Maybe something like JDM's where if he had a lisfranc injury certain seasons became club options? But if the issue is immediate, you'd want to get rid of the contract asap. Would Rodriguez agree to a contract that basically could be voided in year 2? What's even the point then? Maybe you could get creative but it'd be tough to do so in a way that both parties are ok with. You wouldn't want to do the additional year at the league minimum thing they did with Lackey because it's not like it's a situation where you know he needs a year off then you're good.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 22, 2020 20:19:12 GMT -5
Not if the contract had clauses covering the situation. I'm not sure how you'd even structure that. Maybe something like JDM's where if he had a lisfranc injury certain seasons became club options? But if the issue is immediate, you'd want to get rid of the contract asap. Would Rodriguez agree to a contract that basically could be voided in year 2? What's even the point then? Maybe you could get creative but it'd be tough to do so in a way that both parties are ok with. You wouldn't want to do the additional year at the league minimum thing they did with Lackey because it's not like it's a situation where you know he needs a year off then you're good. Perhaps a settlement if heart problems persist. As it is now, if the heart problems are permanent, ERod has no protection. That would also likely be insurable by the club (at a big premium) but insurance doesn't go against the cap. Since he caught covid at home, it's not at all work related.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 23, 2020 3:42:54 GMT -5
I'm confused ... if E-Rod gets an extension, does he count for more than 1 guy on the 40-man?
New projected roster, changes from the one two weeks ago in bold.
Anyone projected for MLB who is dealt is presumed to be replaced by an acquisition.
C (4): Vazquez, Plawecki; Wong, Grullon CIF (4): Dalbec, Devers, LHH 1B Acquisition; Potts MIF (5): Bogaerts, Chavis, Arroyo; Munoz, Arauz OF (6): Benintendi, CF Acquisition, Verdugo, Martinez, RHH 4th OF Acquisition; Rosario
SP (11): [Sale], Rodriguez, Eovaldi, Acquisition, Perez, Pivetta, Houck; Seabold, Mata, Groome, Mazza RP: (10) Closer Acquisition, Barnes, Brasier, Hernandez, 2 Setup Acquisitions, Rule 5 Draftee; Valdez, Tapia, Taylor
Traded: Chatham, Wilson, Aybar, Springs
DFA / NRI: Peraza, Lin, Godley, Brice, Weber, Walden
DFA / possible NRI: Covey, Stock, Kickham, Brewer [*]
DFA: Hart, Hall, Triggs, Leyer
DFA / F.O. Job: Pedroia
Possible tweak: keep Wilson, acquire one less reliever. With only one setup acquisition, at the start of the season the 6th man in the pen is a Valdez / Tapia competition. But one injury to any of the top 5 guys means they both make the team. If all the starters are healthy, one (probably Houck) can be used as a reliever, in more or less the Velazquez role of 2018. But the odds are decent that one of the six guys (after Sale) is hurt, and now the staff is thin. You want to have stupid pitching depth, and there should be plenty of available setup arms, given the economics.
The key here is the quality of arms they can pick up as NRI's. If they're convinced they've got at least one keeper from that group, you might be able to get away with this tweak.
* This will depend on what other pitching NRI's they can find.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 23, 2020 6:34:26 GMT -5
A thought: How likely is it that a R5 pick is going to have higher upside than Wilson or Aybar, particularly higher enough upside to keep the R5 guy on the active roster when those two can be optioned? Consider for example that we have Arauz ranked only slightly ahead of them, and that only afterva damn good showing this year considering his situation. It was even closer 2 months ago.
I see them as "traded", but interpreting that as "traded to make room" (might be wrong), I don't think that makes sense. Aybar is terribly inconsistent but flashes two plus pitches (in the true sense of flashing them - they come and go) from the left side. Wilson remade his swing last year on the fly and had really good Trackman numbers. He certainly needs work but it's an interesting toolbox. It obviously depends on who'll be available and where they're picking, but I can't see either being much worse than the R5 pick.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 23, 2020 7:26:30 GMT -5
Since he used the word traded, I'm assuming some sort of 2-1 upgrade deal where the two slots would be the return and the Rule5 guy. Otherwise I would have objected on the grounds that after Duran, we don't have a lot of upper minors outfield depth but we are heavy on utility guys and potential relievers.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 23, 2020 7:53:05 GMT -5
The guy I wonder about is Grullon. Why would the Phillies waive him then turn around and sign Lucroy. That seems odd for an upper minors catcher.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 23, 2020 10:27:12 GMT -5
The guy I wonder about is Grullon. Why would the Phillies waive him then turn around and sign Lucroy. That seems odd for an upper minors catcher. They have a good amount of catching depth. Report was they were probably going to DFA him this offseason to make room on the 40. Lucroy is a temporary solution with MLB experience who's a FA after the season anyway.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 23, 2020 10:51:21 GMT -5
Hopefully Lucroy will be back next year. He was like an extra coach at the alt. site and having him as an emergency catcher is a luxury.
Grullon doesn't seem like a likely major league catcher, even as a backup.
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Post by jimoh on Sept 23, 2020 12:47:59 GMT -5
The guy I wonder about is Grullon. Why would the Phillies waive him then turn around and sign Lucroy. That seems odd for an upper minors catcher. They have a good amount of catching depth. Report was they were probably going to DFA him this offseason to make room on the 40. Lucroy is a temporary solution with MLB experience who's a FA after the season anyway. My Phillies fan friend said he just refused too improve his conditioning.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 23, 2020 15:36:44 GMT -5
A thought: How likely is it that a R5 pick is going to have higher upside than Wilson or Aybar, particularly higher enough upside to keep the R5 guy on the active roster when those two can be optioned? Consider for example that we have Arauz ranked only slightly ahead of them, and that only afterva damn good showing this year considering his situation. It was even closer 2 months ago. I see them as "traded", but interpreting that as "traded to make room" (might be wrong), I don't think that makes sense. Aybar is terribly inconsistent but flashes two plus pitches (in the true sense of flashing them - they come and go) from the left side. Wilson remade his swing last year on the fly and had really good Trackman numbers. He certainly needs work but it's an interesting toolbox. It obviously depends on who'll be available and where they're picking, but I can't see either being much worse than the R5 pick. I think that if they're picking 5, 6, or 7, you're likely correct. I was thinking of a 3 pick, which seems much likelier to turn into something.
Am I going to look at all the Rule 5 picks to see if there's any evidence to back that up? I plan not to!
What I actually mean by trading Wilson and Aybar is to include them as desirable return in trades to fill some of the six needs. I single them out only because they were not acquired by Bloom.
From a math POV, I believe they need to add six players (excluding replacing Bradley), and that means they need to shed 4 prospects you'd like to keep around if you want to leave a Rule 5 spot open. I think it's likely that all 4 of those guys will be on the 40-man before the Rule 5. You then eventually trade prospects to make room for everyone you acquire, instead of the usual move of DFA'ing your fringe guys. This indicates a deepening system!
The 4 guys I named are just my guess. If we go by the ratings here, you'd keep Chatham and trade Grullon instead. Another possibility to be dealt is Arauz.
A very interesting idea is to wait till ST starts and you can put Sale on the 60-day IL to sign the last guy for the bullpen. That would allow you to keep an extra prospect. There could well be be good pitchers holding out in the hope that ST injuries up their price. This would mean that you don't get Sale until c. June 1 when they're hoping for mid-May, but in the long run slowing him down might make more sense ... and if by mid-May they're actually talking about when he starts his rehab assignments, there's not a problem at all.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 23, 2020 16:43:52 GMT -5
OK, so if we're just calling them placeholders for a rough number of players who'll be traded off the roster, I get it. I was thinking more that I can't see them being moved for cash, for example.
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