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2021 Manager Search (Cora Returns)
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Post by klostrophobic on Sept 27, 2020 16:24:22 GMT -5
But, like, who cares? Is the goal to win games or make every move based on how it might be embarrassing to someone? Good point. They should also really start a Russian-style steroid program. Great point. Hadn't considered that signing a coach was equivalent to an illegal doping regimen. Brilliant.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Sept 27, 2020 16:27:57 GMT -5
Good point. They should also really start a Russian-style steroid program. Great point. Hadn't considered that signing a coach was equivalent to an illegal doping regimen. Brilliant. Cheaters are cheaters. You said you thought it was about winning, not appearance. Why not go the distance? Win however you can. Or... it is not just about winning. It is about winning fairly and not affiliating yourself with people who don’t. I have been pretty consistent in saying I want to root for a team that deserves to be rooted for: follow the rules, be loyal to players etc.
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Post by klostrophobic on Sept 27, 2020 16:34:52 GMT -5
Is signing Cora cheating? What a terrible argument.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Sept 27, 2020 16:47:57 GMT -5
Is signing Cora cheating? What a terrible argument. Listen, whatever. If you don’t care, that’s you. Personally, I see no reason to rush out and sign a guy who cheated (was it with two teams?). If the argument is “but he won,” then winning is all that matters. I don’t think it is.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 27, 2020 21:11:02 GMT -5
The cheating thing is rampant around the league and I suspect cultivated from the top on down starting in the FO with Houston. No that doesn't let Cora off the hook, but he has lost his job and taken the one year suspension. I suspect if he gets caught in a scandal like that again that he would be banished. FWIW Manfred kind of exonerated him for 2018 as the blame went all on Billy Broadbent, right or wrong.
I thought Cora was a terrific manager and think he'd be perfect for the Red Sox going forward. He was a manager who could tie the analytics of the FO with buy-in from the players and that was no small thing, plus he had the respect of his players.
I think the FO would love to have him back.
I suspect Chaim Bloom does NOT want to have him back. Out of courtesy perhaps, he'll interview Cora, but I suspect he'll turn to his own guy. I think if Varitek wanted the job bad enough, he might be the one guy Bloom would hire that he doesn't know as well, but I think he'll turn to somebody he knew and trusted from his TB days.
And Cora will wind up somewhere else - very quickly. Possibly Detroit. And he'll be successful.
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Post by blizzards39 on Sept 27, 2020 21:20:29 GMT -5
The cheating thing is rampant around the league and I suspect cultivated from the top on down starting in the FO with Houston. No that doesn't let Cora off the hook, but he has lost his job and taken the one year suspension. I suspect if he gets caught in a scandal like that again that he would be banished. FWIW Manfred kind of exonerated him for 2018 as the blame went all on Billy Broadbent, right or wrong. I thought Cora was a terrific manager and think he'd be perfect for the Red Sox going forward. He was a manager who could tie the analytics of the FO with buy-in from the players and that was no small thing, plus he had the respect of his players. I think the FO would love to have him back. I suspect Chaim Bloom does NOT want to have him back. Out of courtesy perhaps, he'll interview Cora, but I suspect he'll turn to his own guy. I think if Varitek wanted the job bad enough, he might be the one guy Bloom would hire that he doesn't know as well, but I think he'll turn to somebody he knew and trusted from his TB days. And Cora will wind up somewhere else - very quickly. Possibly Detroit. And he'll be successful. I totally agree with everything you say. Except Cora being successful it Detroit. That organization is a dumpster fire
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 27, 2020 21:24:59 GMT -5
The cheating thing is rampant around the league and I suspect cultivated from the top on down starting in the FO with Houston. No that doesn't let Cora off the hook, but he has lost his job and taken the one year suspension. I suspect if he gets caught in a scandal like that again that he would be banished. FWIW Manfred kind of exonerated him for 2018 as the blame went all on Billy Broadbent, right or wrong. I thought Cora was a terrific manager and think he'd be perfect for the Red Sox going forward. He was a manager who could tie the analytics of the FO with buy-in from the players and that was no small thing, plus he had the respect of his players. I think the FO would love to have him back. I suspect Chaim Bloom does NOT want to have him back. Out of courtesy perhaps, he'll interview Cora, but I suspect he'll turn to his own guy. I think if Varitek wanted the job bad enough, he might be the one guy Bloom would hire that he doesn't know as well, but I think he'll turn to somebody he knew and trusted from his TB days. And Cora will wind up somewhere else - very quickly. Possibly Detroit. And he'll be successful. I totally agree with everything you say. Except Cora being successful it Detroit. That organization is a dumpster fire They are a mess, but they do have some young talent. Mize could very well be an ace in the not-so-distant future and they've had some high draft picks that could turn things around in a hurry. They got that 1b with the 1st pick of last year's draft, too, I think. It might not be an instantaneous thing but I could see Cora riding some of those youngsters as they develop, and him knowing who to kick in the butt to get a better performance and knowing who to treat with kid gloves. I think he'd be great for a team like that. Honestly I hope we don't find out, because I'd love to see him help bring along the Red Sox youngsters.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 28, 2020 0:26:48 GMT -5
After listening to Xander's post-game, it's clear that RR is hugely liked.
He comes in a package with Cora. It's both, or neither. And it's hard to imagine a combination of manager and bench coach that could do a better job than then, even omitting their familiarity and comfort level with everyone involved (except Bloom).
Bloom is not DDo. He'll have no need to "have his own man" for the sake of having one.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Sept 28, 2020 4:35:39 GMT -5
Have gotten hammered for my choice of words by some here, so maybe shouldn't post this in case isn't understood by all, or doesn't come out right.
Was a time when NYY were considered cheaters just for buying all those WS championships, division crowns.. everything and it started with the advent of FA when they were about the only team that spent unlimited amounts on team salary. That all lasted until pretty much George Steinbrenner stepped down. Let's not forget half a dozen players on steroids in the early part of the century.
I don't see any problem at all with former Sox infielder Cora.. Always a good guy when he was with them coming back as a player coming back as the manager after serving the suspension. No players got hit at all the last 3y for these violations, which is absurd, only people who could not fight back.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 28, 2020 8:11:52 GMT -5
Jen McCaffrey with an early candidates list and excellent coverage on each : Alex Cora, former Red Sox manager Matt Quatraro, Rays bench coach George Lombard, Dodgers first base coach Mark Kotsay, Athletics quality control coach Hensley Meulens, Mets bench coach Will Venable, Cubs first base coach Mark Loretta, former Cubs bench coach Jason Varitek, Red Sox coach and special assistant theathletic.com/2096701/2020/09/27/red-sox-managerial-candidates-search/?source=dailyemailIt should be noted that the Sox can't hire Cora until after the World Series.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 28, 2020 8:56:35 GMT -5
Cora is DD guy, not Blooms guy. No way ownership tries to make him sign who they want and I don't think Bloom wants the drama.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Sept 28, 2020 9:06:26 GMT -5
Varitek has been mentioned as a possible future Sox manager for how long? 15y? Longer? Family, fact he's one of the newer ballplayers that made a considerable amount of money and really doesn't need all the drama which goes with putting up with either coaching FT, or managing a club is why IMO he's a non factor before, now and probably in the future for a full time hire.
Just don't see many guys who made 50.. 100m dollars playing having to put up with the daily grind of working for 1-2m a year as a manager, or 500k as a coach.
Showing up for a month and a half in the spring, then maybe a few days each month to work with players is probably about all can expect to get out of the martinez/Tek types.
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 28, 2020 9:14:59 GMT -5
Cora has taint regardless of basis or lack thereof. The Sox are moving on from any such spectre.
RR did a good job as the interim guy but he was regarded as just that...a steward in rough seas. He gets a pat, thanks...and perhaps a reward in heaven.
Varitek as manager would be seen as a throwback to the old days where teams were run as chummy clubs. That's not Chaim. Plus I don't think V wants the job or sees himself in that capacity.
I don't have a subscription to the Athletic so don't know its basis for including others as manager possibilities and don't have independent opinion on any.
I do think that Chaim wants to put his own stamp on the team as most new GMs would. I expect that he will canvas opinions, perhaps lean to someone from the Rays with whom he is most familiar, but ultimately make a well-reasoned decision.
The ship is powered up, turning...and it's going to be an exciting off-season!
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 28, 2020 9:22:06 GMT -5
Cora has taint regardless of basis or lack thereof. The Sox are moving on from any such spectre. RR did a good job as the interim guy but he was regarded as just that...a steward in rough seas. He gets a pat, thanks...and perhaps a reward in heaven. Varitek as manager would be seen as a throwback to the old days where teams were run as chummy clubs. That's not Chaim. Plus I don't think V wants the job or sees himself in that capacity. I don't have a subscription to the Athletic so don't know its basis for including others as manager possibilities and don't have independent opinion on any. I do think that Chaim wants to put his own stamp on the team as most new GMs would. I expect that he will canvas opinions, perhaps lean to someone from the Rays with whom he is most familiar, but ultimately make a well-reasoned decision. The ship is powered up, turning...and it's going to be an exciting off-season! Quattro would be the one he's worked with. Someone from FanGraphs also speculated him, probably for the same reason. Without spilling beans, you and johnsilver's points are generally hers as well (the part about not wanting a full time job).
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Post by huskies15 on Sept 28, 2020 9:28:41 GMT -5
Btw Bloom signed on with the Sox fully expecting and wanting Cora to be his manager. To say Cora is not Bloom's guy isn't totally true.
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Post by unitspin on Sept 28, 2020 9:56:47 GMT -5
Bloom was brought into the org to shake it up. After DD delivered the title and could not repeat they knew he had run his course. They brought bloom in to turn the ship around and deliver another title. This ownership group has done this multiple times already it should not be a surprise we will see much of the same for bloom. He comes in builds the farm up and giving all the rope he needs to build the team he wants. If he wins they'll give him more rope. If he doesn't on to the next.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 28, 2020 10:52:01 GMT -5
Btw Bloom signed on with the Sox fully expecting and wanting Cora to be his manager. To say Cora is not Bloom's guy isn't totally true. Expecting is 100% true, how do you know he wanted him?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 28, 2020 12:49:32 GMT -5
1) I don't think Roenicke was even scapegoated here. The org learned Cora was going to be out way too late in the process to do a real search, so they went with the best internal candidate to bridge the gap for a year. I don't think he was staying unless he ended the year as a MOY candidate.
2) On Cora, I think your viewpoint depends a lot on what version of the Astros scandal story you buy. The one in the report, in which Cora is basically the ring leader, is one way it's been put, but it's also basically been said without being said that he was made a scapegoat by those still with the Astros and his role was WAY overblown in the report. Was he complicit either way? Sure. But the idea he came up with the whole thing always felt off to me.
Anyway, we'll see Bloom did a terrific job throwing the beat off his scent here.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 28, 2020 15:41:14 GMT -5
1) I don't think Roenicke was even scapegoated here. The org learned Cora was going to be out way too late in the process to do a real search, so they went with the best internal candidate to bridge the gap for a year. I don't think he was staying unless he ended the year as a MOY candidate. 2) On Cora, I think your viewpoint depends a lot on what version of the Astros scandal story you buy. The one in the report, in which Cora is basically the ring leader, is one way it's been put, but it's also basically been said without being said that he was made a scapegoat by those still with the Astros and his role was WAY overblown in the report. Was he complicit either way? Sure. But the idea he came up with the whole thing always felt off to me. Anyway, we'll see Bloom did a terrific job throwing the beat off his scent here.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 28, 2020 18:15:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I think they'll interview people, even if just for appearances, but my money would be on Cora, personally.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 28, 2020 18:26:59 GMT -5
I actually have Pete Abraham's story with the Bloom quotes on Cora right next to me. I couldn't disagree more with the interpretation that he's a goner.
Abraham notes that Bloom said the Sox "parted ways" with Cora based on his role in the Astros scandal. He seems to think that the choice of language indicates that it's permanent.
"You guys know, in brief, my thoughts on Alex. I don't want to elaborate because I don't want to be saying things about him that I haven't said to him."
So, what were those thoughts?
That considering a possible return of Cora in the future was "not a factor" in naming RR interim manager.
That's it. I had to Google that because Abraham was too lazy to do it for us.
And what it meant was that they were a) obviously not thinking about Cora now, and b) wanted to name someone ASAP and went with "interim" in case they found a third guy they liked better. When they didn't, they removed the "interim" tag.
And the quote in italics above means "I earlier said that Alex was not a factor in our managerial decisions. I still haven't talked to him. I sure as hell aren't saying anything to you about it."
So, Pete asks Bloom if he stood by what he said before, apparently meaning "what I took to be the implications of what you said."
Bloom says, yes, I did.
Pete asks, does that definitely rule out Cora returning?
What? That's a complete non sequitor to Bloom. All he's said is that Cora has not been a factor yet, at all.
"I don't want to say anything about him that I have not been able to say to him. So I'm not going to answer a question like that."
You'd have to be really idiotic to be that short with a clueless reporter if you were just trying to disguise the fact that you had not yet told Cora he would never be coming back.
Now, at this point I put myself a bit in Bloom's shoes as someone with a shared cultural background, about what's right and wrong and the way you treat people.
It would be absolutely unconscionable to decide that Cora would never return and not tell him immediately. Bloom left Atlanta to go home to observe Yom Kippur. Was his big motivation to go to Kol Nidre services and confess that as a sin? No. But that's what happened if the Abraham / Tomase spin is correct.
If I'm Bloom, I want to hear the whole story from Cora. I want to know what happened, and why you let your guys cheat, and why you realize that was a mistake.
There's no way you were going to have that conversation until there is a managerial opening, and as soon as there is one, it's a high priority. And you're not going to preview that conversation by describing it to even a good reporter, let alone one that is consistently lazy and off-mark.
Oh, and Xander Bogaerts, who couldn't be closer to Cora and RR, can opt out in two years. If they don't give Cora a fair shot at this, he's leaving -- quite possibly to go where Cora ends up.
Now, I can see Bloom explaining that they heard the whole story from Cora and decided to move in a different direction. That would be damning.
But, obviously if you're Bloom, you hope pretty badly that Cora can satisfy you with answers to the questions you need to ask, so that you can tell that to the world.
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Post by patford on Sept 28, 2020 18:48:21 GMT -5
If Bloom follows the Tampa model he will select a manager who is player friendly and who allows the guys doing the analytics to make the decisions. Living near Tampa and following the Rays for years I'm convinced almost everything in game strategy wise is coming from upstairs. Basically all the manager does is add an "ie" to the end of all the players names. Some of the Sox are good to go as is. Bogie, Jackie, Bennie, in addition we'd get; Raffie, JDie, Vazzie, Dalie, Tannie, etc.
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Post by patford on Sept 28, 2020 18:55:35 GMT -5
I actually have Pete Abraham's story with the Bloom quotes on Cora right next to me. I couldn't disagree more with the interpretation that he's a goner.
Abraham notes that Bloom said the Sox "parted ways" with Cora based on his role in the Astros scandal. He seems to think that the choice of language indicates that it's permanent.
"You guys know, in brief, my thoughts on Alex. I don't want to elaborate because I don't want to be saying things about him that I haven't said to him."
So, what were those thoughts?
That considering a possible return of Cora in the future was "not a factor" in naming RR interim manager.
That's it. I had to Google that because Abraham was too lazy to do it for us.
And what it meant was that they were a) obviously not thinking about Cora now, and b) wanted to name someone ASAP and went with "interim" in case they found a third guy they liked better. When they didn't, they removed the "interim" tag.
And the quote in italics above means "I earlier said that Alex was not a factor in our managerial decisions. I still haven't talked to him. I sure as hell aren't saying anything to you about it."
So, Pete asks Bloom if he stood by what he said before, apparently meaning "what I took to be the implications of what you said."
Bloom says, yes, I did.
Pete asks, does that definitely rule out Cora returning?
What? That's a complete non sequitor to Bloom. All he's said is that Cora has not been a factor yet, at all.
"I don't want to say anything about him that I have not been able to say to him. So I'm not going to answer a question like that."
You'd have to be really idiotic to be that short with a clueless reporter if you were just trying to disguise the fact that you had not yet told Cora he would never be coming back.
Now, at this point I put myself a bit in Bloom's shoes as someone with a shared cultural background, about what's right and wrong and the way you treat people.
It would be absolutely unconscionable to decide that Cora would never return and not tell him immediately. Bloom left Atlanta to go home to observe Yom Kippur. Was his big motivation to go to Kol Nidre services and confess that as a sin? No. But that's what happened if the Abraham / Tomase spin is correct.
If I'm Bloom, I want to hear the whole story from Cora. I want to know what happened, and why you let your guys cheat, and why you realize that was a mistake.
There's no way you were going to have that conversation until there is a managerial opening, and as soon as there is one, it's a high priority. And you're not going to preview that conversation by describing it to even a good reporter, let alone one that is consistently lazy and off-mark.
Oh, and Xander Bogaerts, who couldn't be closer to Cora and RR, can opt out in two years. If they don't give Cora a fair shot at this, he's leaving -- quite possibly to go where Cora ends up.
Now, I can see Bloom explaining that they heard the whole story from Cora and decided to move in a different direction. That would be damning.
But, obviously if you're Bloom, you hope pretty badly that Cora can satisfy you with answers to the questions you need to ask, so that you can tell that to the world.
That's a good point about Bloom's responsibility to Cora to inform Cora privately if there was no chance Cora could ever return. I hadn't thought of that and I think you are right that is the correct thing to do. It allows Cora to move on or begin sending out feelers or say that he's wide open to offers etc.. So the fact that Bloom apparently didn't tell Cora that is maybe an indication he will be brought back.
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Post by tomhouse on Sept 28, 2020 19:09:18 GMT -5
Matt Quatraro should not be overlooked.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 28, 2020 19:09:39 GMT -5
There is another moral issue here that's so basic I overlooked it.
Someone has been accused of bad behavior, and there is a solid suggestion that they have been made the scapegoat.
And you're not asking them for their side of the story?
And you're Jewish? Seriously?
No, that's not what's happening.
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