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mobaz
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Posts: 3,044
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Post by mobaz on Jun 18, 2021 14:30:00 GMT -5
I mean, did the C's have an OUTSIDE chance of pulling off a big upset during the stretch of Conference Finals appearances (both there and in the Finals themselves)? Sure. But do we really think that was a TRUE window? I guess it depends on your definition. If looking at it as a time when you have every reason to believe you can win a championship, then probably not. If it's just a time where you have a "punchers chance"? Sure. I do agree though that our real window is waiting for the right team to be built around Tatum/Brown. The Celtics absolutely had some opportunities to win a title in the same way Kawhi Raps won, which frankly is good enough for me at this point since the Celts don't have a no-doubt Top 5 star the way most winners do. They could have won any of those ECFs; it's not like the Pierce/Employee #8 2002 team that had no chance against Kidd. They just never got over the hump. Healthy IT or committed Kyrie or healthy Hayward turn any of those. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 18, 2021 14:41:57 GMT -5
Kawhi is MVP level. Nobody on the Cs was that during this latest stretch. Tatum has that capability now which can open a window of expectations.
Maybe that's the right word to make the distinction. We had a window of POSSIBLY competing for a championship. Now the key is to open one where we can EXPECT to compete for one.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 18, 2021 14:52:02 GMT -5
Exactly you can’t win like the Raptors with Leonard if you never had a Leonard.
Tatum was just 15th in the all NBA voting, missed out because of position. Yet he had more votes than Irving. It's not crazy to think in a few years you could have two all NBA guys.
There's just a difference between fringe title contender and legit one of the best teams in the league contender.
Maybe if Walker doesn't get injured, yet that's just our luck recently. We never got to see that.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jun 18, 2021 18:20:26 GMT -5
I liked your post, but take exception with one sentence the last one. The window has been open for a few seasons now. Injuries and other factors screwed it up when it began with Kyrie, more injuries with Kemba have screwed it up for the past two seasons. I'd say the window began 3 years ago. Getting a "BIG" 3 is key to attracting the additional pieces needed. We clearly have 2 pieces with the Jay's, after that while I like some pieces there is a big whole becuase as much as I love Kemba's game and personality he can't seem to stay healthy and at his age and size, much like Dustin P, you can no longer count on him. Moving him seems to be the biggest need of the team in order to create cap space for the second or third piece. Two big needs of the team are a ball distributor that doesn't necessarily need to score nightly and another big for depth in case TL has continued health issues. This past season was encouraging regarding his health albeit there is still lingering concerns. GM Stevens has a very big first year on his table. Another important item is the growth and health of Langford and Nesmith. A solid jump by either of those two this year would make many problems go away. The fact that covid erased training camp and many practices gives me some hope that this is a realistic possibility rather than a pipe dream. You say the window is just opening and I say the franchise is in flux and could go either way in a hurry or stay par for the course. It's all wide open and nothing next season should be all that surprising no matter the result. I hate riding the fence but this is where I'm mentally at with this team right now. I think you're buying media hype, not what's on the court. Irving did more harm than good, that's a fact. No team can win with him as their best player. Our two best seasons can when Irving got injured and he left. Who knows what Irving/ Hayward would have been if he didn't get injured, yet it happened and given what we got to see with Irving, it likely never would have worked. He needs better players to control him, take the ball out of his hands. I stand by my comments that our window is just opening as true title contenders. I 100% believe Tatum and Brown are good enough starting next year. That's the best pairing you've had since the big three You are certainly at a crossroads. I just see it as how quickly you build a championship team around the them, not if you can. The right moves and you're a title contender as early as next year, the wrong moves and it might take a few more years. One thing I'm certainly not is a media hype guy, I maybe the antithesis of that. I was taking about Kyrie from a pure talent point, and yes I agree he's more of a cancer type player but he is incredibly talented just has a bad attitude. I agree with everything you say except that when you have these 2 greatly talented players the window was open before you acknowledge it, hell they've been to the final four 3 of the previous 4 seasons. A little bit of health and they likely ended up winning a few finals games at least once. Looks like I hit the nail on the head regarding moving Kemba as the biggest move going forward. The J's and others need to recruit players hard right now. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 19, 2021 12:06:13 GMT -5
I think you're buying media hype, not what's on the court. Irving did more harm than good, that's a fact. No team can win with him as their best player. Our two best seasons can when Irving got injured and he left. Who knows what Irving/ Hayward would have been if he didn't get injured, yet it happened and given what we got to see with Irving, it likely never would have worked. He needs better players to control him, take the ball out of his hands. I stand by my comments that our window is just opening as true title contenders. I 100% believe Tatum and Brown are good enough starting next year. That's the best pairing you've had since the big three You are certainly at a crossroads. I just see it as how quickly you build a championship team around the them, not if you can. The right moves and you're a title contender as early as next year, the wrong moves and it might take a few more years. One thing I'm certainly not is a media hype guy, I maybe the antithesis of that. I was taking about Kyrie from a pure talent point, and yes I agree he's more of a cancer type player but he is incredibly talented just has a bad attitude. I agree with everything you say except that when you have these 2 greatly talented players the window was open before you acknowledge it, hell they've been to the final four 3 of the previous 4 seasons. A little bit of health and they likely ended up winning a few finals games at least once. Looks like I hit the nail on the head regarding moving Kemba as the biggest move going forward. The J's and others need to recruit players hard right now. What exactly are you talking about? A little bit of luck and they win a few final games? That's not a true contender in my book. If Walker was actually healthy last year I would have called them true contenders. Yet he wasn't and he basically killed us with his play. In 2018 I don't think anyone thought you actually had a real chance, same with Thomas. They were nice fun runs, that's not what I think of as true contenders. A true contender is they win a championship with a little luck, not a few games. I brought up the media because they kept saying that 2018 with a healthy Irving maybe we could have. Going into 2019 it was all the rage that the Celtics were true contenders. It just was never the case, Irving destroyed that team with his craziness and selfish play. He made Tatum, Brown and Rozier worse players. Hayward still wasn't healed fully and was basically just hurting you. Like I kept saying that year, you would have been better without Irving and Rozier at PG. Rozier helped make players around him better, Irving did the opposite. Starting next year Tatum is the best player you've had since the big three. Zero doubt in my mind that Tatum and Brown can be the best two players on a championship team. |
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Post by karl1 on Jun 21, 2021 10:27:01 GMT -5
What exactly are you talking about? A little bit of luck and they win a few final games? That's not a true contender in my book. If Walker was actually healthy last year I would have called them true contenders. Yet he wasn't and he basically killed us with his play. In 2018 I don't think anyone thought you actually had a real chance, same with Thomas. They were nice fun runs, that's not what I think of as true contenders. A true contender is they win a championship with a little luck, not a few games. I brought up the media because they kept saying that 2018 with a healthy Irving maybe we could have. Going into 2019 it was all the rage that the Celtics were true contenders. It just was never the case, Irving destroyed that team with his craziness and selfish play. He made Tatum, Brown and Rozier worse players. Hayward still wasn't healed fully and was basically just hurting you. Like I kept saying that year, you would have been better without Irving and Rozier at PG. Rozier helped make players around him better, Irving did the opposite. Starting next year Tatum is the best player you've had since the big three. Zero doubt in my mind that Tatum and Brown can be the best two players on a championship team. I agree. There was always a puzzle piece missing or something holding the team down. Tatum and Brown can be (the) two cornerstones of a championship team. Still a lot of work needs to be done but as they both are still young Steven's has some time to do the right things. |
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jun 22, 2021 7:42:35 GMT -5
One thing I'm certainly not is a media hype guy, I maybe the antithesis of that. I was taking about Kyrie from a pure talent point, and yes I agree he's more of a cancer type player but he is incredibly talented just has a bad attitude. I agree with everything you say except that when you have these 2 greatly talented players the window was open before you acknowledge it, hell they've been to the final four 3 of the previous 4 seasons. A little bit of health and they likely ended up winning a few finals games at least once. Looks like I hit the nail on the head regarding moving Kemba as the biggest move going forward. The J's and others need to recruit players hard right now. What exactly are you talking about? A little bit of luck and they win a few final games? That's not a true contender in my book. If Walker was actually healthy last year I would have called them true contenders. Yet he wasn't and he basically killed us with his play. In 2018 I don't think anyone thought you actually had a real chance, same with Thomas. They were nice fun runs, that's not what I think of as true contenders. A true contender is they win a championship with a little luck, not a few games. I brought up the media because they kept saying that 2018 with a healthy Irving maybe we could have. Going into 2019 it was all the rage that the Celtics were true contenders. It just was never the case, Irving destroyed that team with his craziness and selfish play. He made Tatum, Brown and Rozier worse players. Hayward still wasn't healed fully and was basically just hurting you. Like I kept saying that year, you would have been better without Irving and Rozier at PG. Rozier helped make players around him better, Irving did the opposite. Starting next year Tatum is the best player you've had since the big three. Zero doubt in my mind that Tatum and Brown can be the best two players on a championship team. So the difference between a true contender for us is, I think they win at least a few final games and your's is winning it? I obviously agree in hindsite regarding Kyrie and everything else. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 22, 2021 11:22:08 GMT -5
What exactly are you talking about? A little bit of luck and they win a few final games? That's not a true contender in my book. If Walker was actually healthy last year I would have called them true contenders. Yet he wasn't and he basically killed us with his play. In 2018 I don't think anyone thought you actually had a real chance, same with Thomas. They were nice fun runs, that's not what I think of as true contenders. A true contender is they win a championship with a little luck, not a few games. I brought up the media because they kept saying that 2018 with a healthy Irving maybe we could have. Going into 2019 it was all the rage that the Celtics were true contenders. It just was never the case, Irving destroyed that team with his craziness and selfish play. He made Tatum, Brown and Rozier worse players. Hayward still wasn't healed fully and was basically just hurting you. Like I kept saying that year, you would have been better without Irving and Rozier at PG. Rozier helped make players around him better, Irving did the opposite. Starting next year Tatum is the best player you've had since the big three. Zero doubt in my mind that Tatum and Brown can be the best two players on a championship team. So the difference between a true contender for us is, I think they win at least a few final games and your's is winning it? I obviously agree in hindsite regarding Kyrie and everything else. No. You said with a little luck maybe we could have won a few final games. For me if you get lucky, yeah you win a championship or have a realistic shot at it. Example the Nets stay healthy, legit contenders. The Celtics winning is like Hawks winning this year. Nice fun run, I don't see them as legit contenders. Look no further than the betting odds, people agree. 2020 with a little luck, Walker and Hayward are 100% healthy. You are legit contenders if that happens. You don't have to win, legit contenders are all about how you play and your actual talent level. Heck if those two got injured in the playoffs you'd be the Nets, yet our dreams ended mid season with Walker. It sucks, we could have had two stretches of being legit contenders, heck three really. With Irving and Hayward, then Walker and Hayward plus the young guys. Yet injuries and Irving being slightly crazy killed it. Lucky for us the best is yet to come. Tatum might be our best player since Larry Bird and Brown isn't far behind. You can legit look down the road and see two top 15 players. We haven't had that recently. I get it, people think ECF runs equals true contenders. I don't, it's just nice fun runs unless you have a legit chance at winning. |
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