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Red Sox FA Target: Kiké Hernandez (Update: Signed)
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Post by soxinjersey on Jan 28, 2021 19:07:14 GMT -5
I hear this, but I always love the versatility guys who canât hit at any position. Look! We can play him at second and be below average offensively there! Or we can move him to center and be below average there! Iâd like to see them say âsure JDM is a butcher anywhere we put him, but his offense makes him versatile enough to be a far above average 2B, CF, Câ etc etc. The epitome of this being, I think you'd have to say, Eduardo Nunez, who was terrible both offensively and defensively at multiple infield positions, which meant the manager had several options about where to play him!
(Kiké is going to be so much better.)
I agree that Kiké is going to be better than Nunez, but you forget how good Nunez was in 2017: Of players who had more than 5 AB, Nunez led the team in OPS by a lot: .892 in 165 AB. (Raffy was 2nd with .820 in 222 AB, and Mookie was 3rd: .803.) That first year he was a real sparkplug, a great energy guy like Hernandez, but he hurt his knee late in the year and came back too early in the play-offs vs Houston. In his first AB, he hit a chopper and blew out his knee going hard out of the box. Through the winter, there were doubts about his recovery from the injury, but DD signed him anyway, and Nunez had the bad year in 2018 you all remember (and a worse one in 2019), but he played a lot for perhaps the greatest Sox team in history. How then did they do so well? It's hard to know much about team dynamics from the outside, but they are much more important than most of you seem to realize. I'm only guessing here, but at the time I felt, and still feel, that DD signed Nunez partially because he sacrificed himself for the team (and partially because he'd had a great season and his teammates liked him). The signing was an expression of loyalty, and I imagine that many players appreciated that. In my experience, when a good team player underperforms, his teammates will do whatever they can to cover for him. By any kind of metrics you use to judge the signing of Nunez, it was money poorly spent. But in terms of how teams work together, it may have been a wise one.
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Post by ramireja on Jan 29, 2021 12:40:46 GMT -5
One that I think set Kiké apart from the other 2B/utility options is his ability to play CF. I know some folks are still planning on another CF acquisition, but as I look at the payroll, I'm betting Verdugo is the CF this year with Hernandez as the 2nd option there (and probably Benintendi as the 3rd option with Duran lurking in the minors). So they donât need a CF, but would still need a LHH RF to keep Renfroe from playing seven days a week? Yeah I should clarify, I do think the Red Sox have one more offensive acquisition coming...but a bench piece in the $1M-$3M range. (Also, its totally possible there's still a trade on the way that could shake things up further). But my point is that the presence of Kiké means that the additional acquisition doesn't need to be CF. Kiké can be the backup CF and even play there on days when they want to sit Renfroe by sliding Verdugo back over to RF (although Kiké and Renfroe have similar splits so you're not necessarily gaining a platoon advantage). Bottom line -- Kiké's versatility allows the Red Sox more options about how they fill the remaining bench spot(s).
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 29, 2021 13:22:42 GMT -5
So they donât need a CF, but would still need a LHH RF to keep Renfroe from playing seven days a week? Yeah I should clarify, I do think the Red Sox have one more offensive acquisition coming...but a bench piece in the $1M-$3M range. (Also, its totally possible there's still a trade on the way that could shake things up further). But my point is that the presence of Kiké means that the additional acquisition doesn't need to be CF. Kiké can be the backup CF and even play there on days when they want to sit Renfroe by sliding Verdugo back over to RF (although Kiké and Renfroe have similar splits so you're not necessarily gaining a platoon advantage). Bottom line -- Kiké's versatility allows the Red Sox more options about how they fill the remaining bench spot(s). I suspect that LH bat that can play CF will eventually be on the roster, but it'll be when Duran is ready. They'll add either Moreland or Shaw and hopefully go get another cheap but decent upside arm for the bullpen (I think Rosenthal will be too expensive but I keep hoping they take a flier on Kela).
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 29, 2021 13:59:24 GMT -5
Yeah I should clarify, I do think the Red Sox have one more offensive acquisition coming...but a bench piece in the $1M-$3M range. (Also, its totally possible there's still a trade on the way that could shake things up further). But my point is that the presence of Kiké means that the additional acquisition doesn't need to be CF. Kiké can be the backup CF and even play there on days when they want to sit Renfroe by sliding Verdugo back over to RF (although Kiké and Renfroe have similar splits so you're not necessarily gaining a platoon advantage). Bottom line -- Kiké's versatility allows the Red Sox more options about how they fill the remaining bench spot(s). I suspect that LH bat that can play CF will eventually be on the roster, but it'll be when Duran is ready. They'll add either Moreland or Shaw and hopefully go get another cheap but decent upside arm for the bullpen (I think Rosenthal will be too expensive but I keep hoping they take a flier on Kela). A LHH 1b could also pinch hit for Kiké or Renfroe with someone else taking over at 2b or RF.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Jan 30, 2021 7:29:19 GMT -5
So they donât need a CF, but would still need a LHH RF to keep Renfroe from playing seven days a week? Yeah I should clarify, I do think the Red Sox have one more offensive acquisition coming...but a bench piece in the $1M-$3M range. (Also, its totally possible there's still a trade on the way that could shake things up further). But my point is that the presence of Kiké means that the additional acquisition doesn't need to be CF. Kiké can be the backup CF and even play there on days when they want to sit Renfroe by sliding Verdugo back over to RF (although Kiké and Renfroe have similar splits so you're not necessarily gaining a platoon advantage). Bottom line -- Kiké's versatility allows the Red Sox more options about how they fill the remaining bench spot(s). Yeah if I had to breakdown Enrique's time at each position this year, it would be- 50% second base. 30 percent CF. 20 percent short stop. With Verdugo getting 70% starts in CF and 30% in RF. Enrique will be playing every important position up the middle. Which the Sox badly needed. Hence why he got paid.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on Jan 30, 2021 8:10:17 GMT -5
I like this dude, he seems entertaining ð
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 2, 2021 13:51:49 GMT -5
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 2, 2021 17:10:47 GMT -5
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Post by bcpatsox18 on Feb 2, 2021 20:53:18 GMT -5
this is the big improvement? a career .240 hitter? we had this in brock holt (and he was a better hitter) and let him go. yes he has some pop but not enough to justify giving chavis a shot at second base. the upside on chavis is so much higher than this guy. i really dont understand any excitement or why they signed this guy at all, hes reduntant everywhere besides maybe spelling jackie in center if he comes back. even then pillar is better offensively and defensively and is way cheaper. dumb signing and overpaid
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 2, 2021 21:36:47 GMT -5
Dumb signing guys, BCPATSOX18 has spoken!
It’s not like he can fill two positions of need while providing some thump or anything
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Post by manfred on Feb 2, 2021 21:46:43 GMT -5
Dumb signing guys, BCPATSOX18 has spoken! It’s not like he can fill two positions of need while providing some thump or anything Well, he can “fill” two positions of need — though the point is that a) 2/$14 mill would have been a sizable part of a contract that keeps JBJ who keeps you from needing one of those positions (assuming he gets 3/~$30mill tops?); and b) it remains to be seen if he is better than even Arroyo. After all, as has been noted, beside a freakish 2018, Hernandez has been under 1 oWAR 4 of his last 5 years. Indeed, he is 1.3 oWAR *combined* in those years. In other words, unless he has another freak year, he is not a good hitter. So I don’t think it is unreasonable to think that if either a) he is a starter or b) he is not a starter but getting paid like one that this is a dubious signing. Add: by the way, he can only fill one of those positions at a time, and even HE suggest he’ll be mostly at 2B. So you are giving him points for utility that are lost because subs don’t get to be subs when you lack a 2B and you let your CF walk. If he plays 130 games at 2b and 10 in CF, do you stand by your position that his utility adds great value? Or have the Sox just signed a weak-hitting 2B?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 2, 2021 21:57:49 GMT -5
He himself lists 5 positions he’s going to play (and he plays them at a pretty high level, outside of short where he’s merely ok)- are we really gonna argue that he’s not providing them value as a utility guy?
He says he’s going to get the most playing time at 2B. That doesn’t mean “he’s not providing them any value as a utility”
Fine if you don’t think he’s a good player. He would have been 5th on the team in position player WAR last year IN HIS DOWN YEAR, ahead of Vazquez (4th if you get rid of guys we dealt mid-season). So yeah forgive me if batting average is not convincing me that he’s not worth a short term contract at meh money when he’s gonna be playing borderline full time at multiple spots, providing huge defensive value and some pop
He’s a rare skill set. And this doesn’t even factor in the impact he will have on the clubhouse culture
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Post by manfred on Feb 2, 2021 22:13:34 GMT -5
He himself lists 5 positions he’s going to play (and he plays them at a pretty high level, outside of short where he’s merely ok)- are we really gonna argue that he’s not providing them value as a utility guy? He says he’s going to get the most playing time at 2B. That doesn’t mean “he’s not providing them any value as a utility” Fine if you don’t think he’s a good player. He would have been 5th on the team in position player WAR last year IN HIS DOWN YEAR, ahead of Vazquez (4th if you get rid of guys we dealt mid-season). So yeah forgive me if batting average is not convincing me that he’s not worth a short term contract at meh money when he’s gonna be playing borderline full time at multiple spots, providing huge defensive value and some pop He’s a rare skill set. And this doesn’t even factor in the impact he will have on the clubhouse culture Wait... what was his “down” year? Last year, yeah, he was 1 WAR. But he was .1 oWAR. But that is only down if you assume his performance in the 5 out of 7 seasons in which he’s amassed 2.1 oWAR total are not representative. Most of his total value in his career has come from defense and a single fluke season. So the question is: how stoked are we to have a glove first 2B making $14 mill for two years? I mean, it is fine, I guess, but color me not stoked, that’s for sure. Add: put differently, Christian Arroyo had the same oWAR in 50 ABs as Kiké in 139. In Arroyo’s “fullest” season, 2017, he had a dWAR of .4 in 34 games. So he is not a butcher. He makes millions less. Have they invested in a huge advance? Put one more way: this is your big FA get of two off-seasons.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 2, 2021 22:31:33 GMT -5
He himself lists 5 positions he’s going to play (and he plays them at a pretty high level, outside of short where he’s merely ok)- are we really gonna argue that he’s not providing them value as a utility guy? He says he’s going to get the most playing time at 2B. That doesn’t mean “he’s not providing them any value as a utility” Fine if you don’t think he’s a good player. He would have been 5th on the team in position player WAR last year IN HIS DOWN YEAR, ahead of Vazquez (4th if you get rid of guys we dealt mid-season). So yeah forgive me if batting average is not convincing me that he’s not worth a short term contract at meh money when he’s gonna be playing borderline full time at multiple spots, providing huge defensive value and some pop He’s a rare skill set. And this doesn’t even factor in the impact he will have on the clubhouse culture Wait... what was his “down” year? Last year, yeah, he was 1 WAR. But he was .1 oWAR. But that is only down if you assume his performance in the 5 out of 7 seasons in which he’s amassed 2.1 oWAR total are not representative. Most of his total value in his career has come from defense and a single fluke season. So the question is: how stoked are we to have a glove first 2B making $14 mill for two years? I mean, it is fine, I guess, but color me not stoked, that’s for sure. Add: put differently, Christian Arroyo had the same oWAR in 50 ABs as Kiké in 139. In Arroyo’s “fullest” season, 2017, he had a dWAR of .4 in 34 games. So he is not a butcher. He makes millions less. Have they invested in a huge advance? Put one more way: this is your big FA get of two off-seasons. Does Arroyo have a reasonable sample size in the MLB so we know what he is? Can he play all 3 OF spots? We both know that answer And value is value my man, I don’t care how it comes. Hernandez has been a very valuable player through it his career. Easily worth 2/14 on the open market with his versatility and intangibles. I mean Archer has been miserable his last couple fulls seasons and just had TOS and is making a similar AAV. I mean people were clamoring over Kolten Wong- what is he if not a gold glove 2B with a meh bat??? This is the same thing except you’re gonna get more pop and more flexibility I just don’t understand Red Sox fans complaining about nickels and dimes being spent when it’s not preventing them from doing anything they want to do. They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Over the course of the last few seasons he’s roughly a 2-3.3 WAR player (if you project the rest of last season). That’s a good baseball player! Especially when they are providing clubhouse intangibles and versatility!
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Post by manfred on Feb 2, 2021 22:38:04 GMT -5
Wait... what was his “down” year? Last year, yeah, he was 1 WAR. But he was .1 oWAR. But that is only down if you assume his performance in the 5 out of 7 seasons in which he’s amassed 2.1 oWAR total are not representative. Most of his total value in his career has come from defense and a single fluke season. So the question is: how stoked are we to have a glove first 2B making $14 mill for two years? I mean, it is fine, I guess, but color me not stoked, that’s for sure. Add: put differently, Christian Arroyo had the same oWAR in 50 ABs as Kiké in 139. In Arroyo’s “fullest” season, 2017, he had a dWAR of .4 in 34 games. So he is not a butcher. He makes millions less. Have they invested in a huge advance? Put one more way: this is your big FA get of two off-seasons. Does Arroyo have a reasonable sample size in the MLB so we know what he is? Can he play all 3 OF spots? We both know that answer And value is value my man, I don’t care how it comes. Hernandez has been a very valuable player through it his career. Easily worth 2/14 on the open market with his versatility and intangibles. I mean Archer has been miserable his last couple fulls seasons and just had TOS and is making a similar AAV. I mean people were clamoring over Kolten Wong- what is he if not a gold glove 2B with a meh bat??? This is the same thing except you’re gonna get more pop and more flexibility I just don’t understand Red Sox fans complaining about nickels and dimes being spent when it’s not preventing them from doing anything they want to do. They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Wong is unsigned, so not that much clamor. You know who has a gold glove? Jackie Bradley Jr. i don’t think it is weird to look at a team with many deficiencies and think it is strange that a utilityman is the big FA splash, especially when he appears to be set to play a) in a position that was well-manned but you let the guy go; or b) at a position where it is not crazy to think a young, cheap in-house option would not be a real step down. It is fine to think this was a good signing, but I responded to you sneering at a rookie poster whose position was entirely defensible.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 2, 2021 22:43:50 GMT -5
Does Arroyo have a reasonable sample size in the MLB so we know what he is? Can he play all 3 OF spots? We both know that answer And value is value my man, I don’t care how it comes. Hernandez has been a very valuable player through it his career. Easily worth 2/14 on the open market with his versatility and intangibles. I mean Archer has been miserable his last couple fulls seasons and just had TOS and is making a similar AAV. I mean people were clamoring over Kolten Wong- what is he if not a gold glove 2B with a meh bat??? This is the same thing except you’re gonna get more pop and more flexibility I just don’t understand Red Sox fans complaining about nickels and dimes being spent when it’s not preventing them from doing anything they want to do. They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Wong is unsigned, so not that much clamor. You know who has a gold glove? Jackie Bradley Jr. i don’t think it is weird to look at a team with many deficiencies and think it is strange that a utilityman is the big FA splash, especially when he appears to be set to play a) in a position that was well-manned but you let the guy go; or b) at a position where it is not crazy to think a young, cheap in-house option would not be a real step down. It is fine to think this was a good signing, but I responded to you sneering at a rookie poster whose position was entirely defensible. Yeah because “he’s redundant everywhere”, Kevin pillar is better and cheaper despite not having a better WAR since 2017 (when Pillar had a good season this year and Enrique apparently was garbage), and citing batting average as a reason a guy sucks are all defensible lol As for Wong I’m talking about among Red Sox fans. I saw plenty of them wanting to take a look at Wong to fill the 2B hole. Also Garrett Richards makes more AAV with an option and is the #3 starter. He’s a bigger signing. And also complaining about us not making a huge free agency splash in a year where it would be completely useless for us to do it is weird to me. Y’all want us to go over the luxury tax threshold to not open a window this year so we have to reset a year earlier? Makes no sense The hilarious thing is calling him redundant at 2B and then ripping him for hitting .240 while the guy that Is apparently impressive and makes him redundant (Arroyo) HIT EXACTLY .240 LAST YEAR WITH LESS GLOVE AND LESS FLEXIBILITY
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 2, 2021 22:55:34 GMT -5
Think of it this way, darn good player versus LHP, backup very good defensive sub versus RHP who's versatility makes roster building easier and is a weapon for a smart coach. It's 7 million dollars! If you're the Rays that's a luxury you likely can't afford. The big market Red Sox? That's being very smart.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 2, 2021 22:57:16 GMT -5
Also his splits aren’t as bad as people think- he had one truly atrocious year against righties and it tanked his career numbers (I wanna say it was 2017 when I looked a week ago)
He’s actually had some years where he’s got better numbers against righties
Edit: just checked and yup. 2017 = beyond miserable against righties and murderous versus lefties (where he gets his reputation from) but in 2018 he was actually better against righties than lefties. Like he was legitimately really good against them
2019 he was better against lefties but not like in 2017, 2020 was a slight advantage against righties
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Feb 2, 2021 23:02:07 GMT -5
Guys, he's a exceptional defender. Pillar isn't even good anymore defensively. Enrique is worth the money.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 2, 2021 23:06:05 GMT -5
For the record he makes Arroyo and Chavis redundant, Arroyo and Chavis don’t make him redundant.
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Post by manfred on Feb 3, 2021 0:49:29 GMT -5
For the record he makes Arroyo and Chavis redundant, Arroyo and Chavis don’t make him redundant. Ah, yes, the great strategy of building for the future by getting the guy who turns 30 this year to take innings from the guys turning 26. You are arguing against a strawman. I never mentioned Wong until you did. I didn’t use BA, I used WAR. Whatever. If you think this is a game changer, great. But it reminds me of the old saw about the guy who kills his parents and pleads for mercy cause he’s an orphan. The Sox let JBJ go, creating a gap in CF, and then get a utilityman and say “hey, he can fill the hole in center.” As another poster said, in *theory* they aren’t a small market so $7 million shouldn’t bother us. True, if they acted like it. If Kiké were backing up JBJ, because the not-Rays resigned their Gold Glove centerfielder? Great! But Kiké being the biggest FA signing in 2 years, after letting go of a better player — and cheaping out last year? Forgive me if I’m not ordering my Hernandez jersey. Hell, if he is going to be a bad hit good glove guy, they could have kept Catham and $6.5 million. Add: Richards has an option. This is the biggest guaranteed contract. Pillar was another guy I never mentioned and certainly don’t want. As for signing other guys... no, I’m not advocating a huge splash. I am saying I’d rather have JBJ. And I’m saying my second choice is nothing... then use the “cap” space for trades in season, since I think they are trying to stay under whatever they may say in public. The Ottavino trade was almost literally a free prospect (with a functional piece one hopes). I’d a million times rather a few more of those than a utilityman.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 3, 2021 1:05:39 GMT -5
You didn’t make those specific arguments but you said they were entirely defensible arguments. They aren’t. Hence my post arguing those positions.
Is he filling the hole in CF now? Weren’t you just saying something about how he’s going to end up playing 140 games at 2B to discredit his value as a utility guy? But now he’s replacing JBJ???
Yeah I can’t keep up with you sometimes Manfred lol
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 3, 2021 1:09:02 GMT -5
Also I’d edit my post but for whatever the forum has a weird interface on my phone right now
In regards to your first paragraph- you literally are mocking them upgrading their worst position last year and then later in the same post are complaining about them not making big signings. I can’t get a read on you. Do you want them to try to win games this year? Or do you want them to play the unproven guys?
also I’m not the guy that called him redundant when he’s a proven MLB player and the others are not- that’s just silly. So again- he makes them redundant. Not the other way around like is claimed
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Post by manfred on Feb 3, 2021 1:22:26 GMT -5
Also I’d edit my post but for whatever the forum has a weird interface on my phone right now In regards to your first paragraph- you literally are mocking them upgrading their worst position last year and then later in the same post are complaining about them not making big signings. I can’t get a read on you. Do you want them to try to win games this year? Or do you want them to play the unproven guys? also I’m not the guy that called him redundant when he’s a proven MLB player and the others are not- that’s just silly. So again- he makes them redundant. Not the other way around like is claimed He is getting credit as being a solution to an artificial problem. That is my point about CF. I suspect he will be a mild improvement over the likes of Arroyo... at, what, 10x the cost? Or, put differently, is the team better with JBJ in center and Arroyo at 2b or Kiké at 2b and Renfroe in right. It is very hard to make a case the latter is *significantly* better, which leads me to say it is wheel spinning. Whether I want them to win or not is irrelevant — the question is, have they operated like *they* want to win this year? The Jays have... they’ve gone wild. The Yankees have... they brought back a key FA and made a few moves in their rotation with very high ceiling. The Sox... signed a utility guy to play 2B. You point out 2B was their worst position.... how do you feel about it now? Cause as I see it, it can be true that it is “better” but also still be not good... and far more expensive.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 3, 2021 2:05:09 GMT -5
I think if Hernandez plays to the high end of the ability he’s shown it’s a significant upgrade, if he plays like last year and “only” provides terrific defense and some pop then it’s a mild upgrade
Then you factor in his ability to play everywhere and clubhouse intangibles and I just don’t get how a Red Sox fan can complain about spending $7 mill on him (while also complaining about them not spending at the same time)
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